Civ III Site Updated

[Father Beast]

Just thinking over the resource system again. does this mean that if your culture doesn't extend to a resource within your city limits, that you would have to build a colony WITHIN YOUR CITY RADIUS to take advantage of it?

Just thinking...

[Father Beast]

Hey, Jeff posted just before I did!!

Thanks for your answers, and yet another previously unrevealed part about gameplay (fortresses and ZOC)

I can't help but wonder if you have to have a citizen working the square with the special resource, or you get it either way. and can pillaging units from a civ at war cut me off from the resource by sitting on it, like they can keep me from producing tiles in civ2?

[java4me]

Is the limit on how far your cities borders can go the same as it was in Civ2 or are they bigger in Civ3?

[Simpson II]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-12-2001 07:11 AM I just hope that they follow this up by tweaking weaker (but still aggressive) AI-civs to concentrate much more on pillagin instead of fruitless HP citywall-banging. They can do much more damage this way.

You didn't play Smac, did you? That's exactly what they decided to make the AI do there. It would bring up a stack of 20-30 troops, then move them around pillaging while my bases were defended solely by 1-1-1 scout infantry. Very bad idea, the AI should attack when it has massed troops.

[El hidalgo]

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast on 05-11-2001 11:35 PM The one thing that I was hoping for during those munte-and-a-half long slide loads. waiting, waiting, will they do it? DANG! Didn't happen. I was hoping they'd finish the Pyramids and see it on the map. Either they didn't finish them, or wonders don't appear on the main map. Dang...

I would like to see that too, as well as the temple (and any other improvements). In short I'm hoping for more uniqueness in appearance among cities, especially in the modern age where in Civ2 they all look exactly the same depending on size (and it's so easy to make any city large enough to get the biggest city graphic). Even large modern cities in the real world aren't all generic skyscrapers. Look at New York vs Boston vs London vs Kuala Lumpur vs Hong Kong vs Tokyo vs Sydney... etc. Simiarity but not identity. I also hope certain wonders can be built only in certain locations... Lighthouse only in a coastal city, Hoover Dam in a city by a river, etc.

I like the colonies, but I would like it better if they had the potential to develop into real cities in their own right, like New York (New Amsterdam), Carthage, etc. At least if the colony is far enough away, unlike in the example.

Also, I wonder what it means to have a border that extends into the sea, as in the example of Rome? Do you control that area of the sea, too? That would be nice. Maybe you could even built a harbor/port even though the city is slightly inland, like Rome (Ostia), Athens (Piraeus), Los Angeles (Port of LA/Long Beach).

Also I notice that the river is narrower in some places, wider in others. I wonder if this has anything to do with navigability of the river? I really hope so. I want deep-water river ports which ocean-going ships can access! (And canoes or something that can't go in the ocean for smaller rivers.) I want to build an inland port city like Manaus!

Lastly, about foreign nationals living in your city. Their revolting or not should not depend only on culture, but on military might and perhaps other factors as well. Think of Genghis Khan -- he'd slaughter everyone in a conquered if they dared disobey (till Mongol military might started to collapse). Perhaps you should have the option of killing all natives in a city, though this would penalize your culture rating and the other civs' attitudes toward you.

Anyway, thank you Dan and Firaxis for the update! Looking good!

[Sirotnikov]

Colonies must be connected with road to one's city. So does it means no colonies overseas?? And how about resources that are found in the sea (like whales)?

Also, you still haven't explained how do unique civs work...

Good updates after all. Still seems ineresting.

In the screen shot we see a border 3 tiles away from city center, however all screen shots of a city screen only show 2 tiles from city center. Maybe they will tell us later.
After looking at most of the threads tonight, not bad. Still a few people unhappy, but most of the people are happy.
I’m very please with everything that I saw in the Firaxis update. One thing is very clear, we will have to produce a lot of military units before we can start upgrading cities with improvements. In Civ 2, I always build two defender per city and then started to build improvements one after another.
Have most of you notice that the screen shots are a lot better each time they show us new one?


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[bagdar]

That means the unhappiness/units-out-of-the-city relation in Democracy has changed, has it not?

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 05-12-2001 05:03 PM You know, one of the best things in the shot was the iron that popped up when you discoved iron working. This will be cooler than I first imagined. Think, what you think is a worthless city, suddenly becomes the most powerful city in the world after oil is discovered there.

Erk...I agree with Imran...*Theben has stroke*

[Theben]

I keep forgetting I have questions for Firaxis:

1) Can the colony be upgraded to a city? Can it grow into one (I know, already asked)? Will placing a settler (likely) or another worker (maybe) upgrade it?

2) Can colonies generate borders? What about fortresses? Are there different levels or types of fortresses?

3) You mentioned that borders are separate from "workable tiles", but does terrain have to be within your city's border in order to work it?

4) What does that peace flag represent? Is it an on-screen indicator of a city in We Love the...Day? Will it only turn on when the city is celebrating or will it (or something else) appear when current indicators (growth, etc) will cause the city to celebrate the following turn? Is there one for civil disturbance?

5) With all the possible luxury resources, it seems that keeping a city happy should be easy. Cn you hint to what are some of the balancing factors?

6) I assume that there is a "patrol" or "guard" command for units. Will it be possible to assign a unit to "patrol" along an entire given trade route (i.e., be the "escort", either overseas or within the your borders on land)?

Any & all answers greatly appreciated!

[Russian King]

quote: Originally posted by Ralf on 05-11-2001 08:43 PM Below Firaxis-answer really feels reassuring: "Alexander, Have no fear! You will indeed be able to decide which tiles within your city border your citizens "work"."

YES-thank you firaxis for listening!!!!!(:kiss-hug
I love what i read and most of what I see. But the rivers and roads are still a little confusing. So are some terrain tiles-just cant figure where everything really is.
I guess you'll fix that and THE GODDAMN CITY NAMES in the future, but everything else looks good.

By the way: are you doing the other ages yet? i wanna see the NUKE!

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS on 05-12-2001 09:37 PM Workers are increasingly becoming mobile "population points", and building colonies is one of their more spectacular abilities.

I see that you guys have killed several birds with one stone here. Workers and settlers can therefore acts as optional war-refugees (or deliberate peacetime pop-transferrings, for that matter). Then any of your border-cities is likely to be irretrievable conquered; you rush-build a worker/settler and move it away somewhat just in case (replacing them perhaps with incoming defenders from other cities) - and if that border-city nevertheless gets conquered, you continue moving these refugees over to a safe city, thus strengthening that city in the process.

quote: Unlike terrain improvements, colonies consume the worker, much like a city consumes the settler. You don't get the worker back if your territory merges with the colony

Good! I dont want to regain that worker, because that would mean one step backwards appeasing ICS.

quote: In this game you need to defend your TERRITORY, not just your cities, or you will be swiftly punished. I find myself building hillside fortresses more in this game than Civ2/SMAC et al. One advanage of this terrain improvement is the zone of control it gives units normally without one (read: most ancient and middle ages units). But it's their ability to protect vital trade roads, colonies, and goods that makes them invaluable.

Well, what can one say? Thumbs up! Those fortresses should be put in better use then they where in Civ-2.
[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 13, 2001).]

[Myronides]

quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS on 05-12-2001 09:37 PM Workers are increasingly becoming mobile "population points", and building colonies is one of their more spectacular abilities. Unlike terrain improvements, colonies consume the worker, much like a city consumes the settler. You don't get the worker back if your territory merges with the colony (the editors will probably allow this to be customized). ... Jeff

Then I hope they are cheap to build and maintain.

[JosefGiven]

First off, almost all the features of Civ III so far displayed are looking splendid. Thanks to Dan and the Firaxians (possible name for a band?) for keeping the Civ III website updated in sterling fashion, too.

quote: I noticed that most of the flat land types had green and grey marks on them (to delineate production, ala civ2). But they don't look that great. Wouldn't it be better to simply say (in the manual) that plains produce I 1 shield, grassland 1shield+1food, and then have a special fertile (black earth?) symbol for those especially rich grasslands that produce 2 food? It would make the map look nicer, cleaner, and less obviously tiled. The shield/food marks really throw the symmetry in your face.

A good point by Krypter. It really is not necessary to include those shield-denoting blobs...perhaps you could go down the Civ II road, and include shield blobs only on terrain where they are 'optional', like Grassland/Grassland shield.

Will a zoom function be included, like in Civ II? I found I needed to use a zoom level different to the default view, so it'd be nice to see the feature available in Civ III.

I must add my whinge to the general cacophony of complaint about unique civs and civ-specific units. PLEASE KEEP THEM OUT! Would America have produced the F-15 if they had started off in central Asia under a Parliamentary Monarchy? No!

Still, credit where it's due...I think you're basically on the right track, Firaxis Bless you!

[Ralf]

quote: Originally posted by Myronides on 05-13-2001 08:52 AM Then I hope they are cheap to build and maintain.

Civ-3 settlers should be just as expensive to build and maintain as they where in Civ-2. Workers on the other hand should be proportionally cheaper, of course. They should however definitelty NOT be as cheap as Civ-2 warriors or even phalanxes - workers must cost a little more then those.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 13, 2001).]

[Yosoce]

one question, one it-would-be-cool-if...

question: What happens if your city swallows up the colony like rome did to the iron colony, and then something happens like sabatoge or nuclear weapons or famine or whatever, and the city borders become smaller. Is the colony lost? it doesnt seem like it should be

it would be cool if you could kick out natives, and then the natives go to the leader of the civilization they originally belonged to and ask to be let settle in one of their cities. For instance, in the middle ages england kicked out all of the jews in london, and all those jews ended up settling in spain. or a more modern example, israel

[Ilkuul]

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold on 05-11-2001 06:15 PM If cities are going to have that huge fixed wall size, please fill the inside with tightly packed hovels until the improvement buildings displace them. It looks more like a lightly populated scout camp with all that green space inside the walls than a bustling hive of commerce

I agree: There should be some empty spaces (greens, market squares, etc.), but if the city was big enough to have the wall enclose that large an area, it should be a lot 'fuller' inside.

But everything I read in the Firaxis site update is VERY encouraging - and I especially liked the 'mini-slideshow' illustrating how the resources system will work. You're doing a great job, Firaxis - keep it up!

[java4me]

quote: Originally posted by Theben on 05-13-2001 04:13 AM I keep forgetting I have questions for Firaxis: 1) Can the colony be upgraded to a city? Can it grow into one (I know, already asked)? Will placing a settler (likely) or another worker (maybe) upgrade it? 2) Can colonies generate borders? What about fortresses? Are there different levels or types of fortresses? 3) You mentioned that borders are separate from "workable tiles", but does terrain have to be within your city's border in order to work it? 4) What does that peace flag represent? Is it an on-screen indicator of a city in We Love the...Day? Will it only turn on when the city is celebrating or will it (or something else) appear when current indicators (growth, etc) will cause the city to celebrate the following turn? Is there one for civil disturbance? 5) With all the possible luxury resources, it seems that keeping a city happy should be easy. Cn you hint to what are some of the balancing factors? 6) I assume that there is a "patrol" or "guard" command for units. Will it be possible to assign a unit to "patrol" along an entire given trade route (i.e., be the "escort", either overseas or within the your borders on land)? Any & all answers greatly appreciated!

This what I know to help answer your questions!!!

1) The answer is no, a colony can't be upgraded to a city. It is a colony forever until it get engulfed by the city borders.

2) Colonies can't generate borders, they are just a colony so there is no culture in that colony at all. Fortresses can't generate borders either, they are just there to have fortified units!

3) Yes, the terrain needs to be in your cities borders to work it, otherwise you would have to build a colony to trade or use that resource.

4) All that Firaxis mentioned was that that was programmer art, and that they would explain the meaning of it at a later time.

5) Again, Firaxis will go in depth with that at a later time, but they did say that the more of that luxury that you have the happier your city will be. It will also influence your culure that will help expand your borders!

6) I don't think that they ever said anything about that, but I think that that would be cool if you could do that! We will just have to wait!

I have a question though leading off number 6, is if you can see the luxuries or resources move over the trade routes to there destination, just like in CTP. I am just curious if that would happen.

Otherwise, I hope that I answered some of your questions!!! Firaxis mentioned this information over the whole forum, I just gathered this from all of those places!!!

[java4me]

Sorry about the long reply, but at least it answers the questions asked!!!

[The Rusty Gamer]

As a side-issue to this borders business, I'm wondering about the unhappiness caused by soldiers away from home. Can someone confirm that as long as your units are anywhere within the culture borders, they won't cause unhappiness?

"If you post something often enough, people will start to read it"

[java4me]

It seems to me that if the unit is in your own borders, than the unhappiness will be less than if it out of your borders!!!

[JamesJKirk]

quote: Originally posted by El hidalgo on 05-12-2001 12:19 PM Lastly, about foreign nationals living in your city. Their revolting or not should not depend only on culture, but on military might and perhaps other factors as well. Think of Genghis Khan -- he'd slaughter everyone in a conquered if they dared disobey (till Mongol military might started to collapse). Perhaps you should have the option of killing all natives in a city, though this would penalize your culture rating and the other civs'

Well the Mongols fared much better in places with low cultural identity (like Russia at the time) than they did in China though, didn't they?

quote: You know, one of the best things in the shot was the iron that popped up when you discoved iron working. This will be cooler than I first imagined. Think, what you think is a worthless city, suddenly becomes the most powerful city in the world after oil is discovered there.

I loved getting that image with any tech back in the good ol' Civ1 days, but then again, hearing that Greek tune over and over again could get to be annoying. (interesting note- waaaay back in civ1, I used to play the Greeks because I thought they got a military advantage over the other civs. Geez, thinking about unique civs so early, what WAS qrong with me?!)

[java4me]

It seems to me that if the unit is in your own borders, than the unhappiness will be less than if it out of your borders!!!

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by java4me on 05-13-2001 05:42 PM 3) Yes, the terrain needs to be in your cities borders to work it, otherwise you would have to build a colony to trade or use that resource.

The way I interpreted Firaxis, you can work any tile in your city radius, which is the same 21-square-area as in Civ II, regardless of the size of your borders. Gaining access to specific resources, however, which are separate from food/shield/trade production, requires that the resource fall
within your borders (or a colony is built on the square of the resource) and is connected with a road to the cities where you want the resource to be used.

[aCa]

quote: Originally posted by Jarouik on 05-14-2001 04:02 AM The way I interpreted Firaxis, you can work any tile in your city radius, which is the same 21-square-area as in Civ II, regardless of the size of your borders.

We have been told earlier that the city radius is also expanding, but not as far as borders. That means that 21-squares is what you start with but you can get more later.

The thing I liked the most about the uppdate is all the ressource stuff. I love that u can't see all resources in the beginning. Maybe that will stop me from restarting all the time to get a good starting location becouse I never know what will pop up later

Nice to see the FIRIFAX team being active here, to bad the avoid all questions that havn't been discussed on their official homepage

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aCa (a Civilization addict)

[Rollo_CH]

Did anyone notice the "Hut" or "Native village" to the west of the Romans and to the south of the Germans in the screenshots on Firxis site?
It is after all a Warrior kind of unit on the tile....could this mean a "Minor Civ" or simply the Barbarians?

[jglidewell]

The game seems to be coming along quite nicely.

In a since you have two borders one for the city workers and another for your civ/territory. I am somewhat confused on this.

Questions

1. Does city pop size affect your culture rating?
2. Awhile back it was said that the age of the culture improvement affected your borders as well. How old would say a temple have to be to generate more culture value.


I would like to see what tiles the city workers are working from the main map view. I do not want to open up the domestic advisor or city view screen to find this out.

Keep up the great work

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by Rollo_CH on 05-14-2001 06:45 AM Did anyone notice the "Hut" or "Native village" to the west of the Romans and to the south of the Germans in the screenshots on Firxis site? It is after all a Warrior kind of unit on the tile....could this mean a "Minor Civ" or simply the Barbarians?

Nice catch, I hadn't seen that. It does look like a barbarian town, the architecture is different from a Pop1 city and colony in the same screenshot. It is a barbarian town!!! About whether its a minor nation can't be determined, though it looks like a barbarian unit is walking out of it. It could be a warrior, but I can't tell as its rotated whether its the same or a different unit.

[Jarouik]

quote: Originally posted by aCa on 05-14-2001 04:59 AM We have been told earlier that the city radius is also expanding, but not as far as borders. That means that 21-squares is what you start with but you can get more later.

I did not recall reading anything said by Firaxis about the city radius actually expanding. You are right that Dan Magaha does, however, say in his recent post that "The way it currently stands, your borders are seperate from your "workable city tiles". The number of city tiles you can work does increase as your city grows, but it doesn't expand nearly as far as your city borders do."

I had thought he just meant that you can have more workers assigned within the city radius as the population increases, as it is in Civ 2, but it really could mean that the city radius expands as well - I just thought that he would have put it more clearly if they actually had the city radius expand.

[SerapisIV]

I've been thinking along the same lines. I believe that only the borders change, the basic city radius doesn't. What the borders allow though is your city-radius production to be unimpacted (unless at war) by an enemy civ. Such that if an enemy is on a special resource tile with a road within a city-radius, but outside your borders (low culture) you can't use that special resource, or harvest the territory. And you cannot make a diplomatic complaint because the unit is on unclaimed land, that is until your culture expands your borders