What Still Needs to be Done

[Falconius]

Greetings everyone. I have not posted in a while because I stopped playing Civ III due to its myriad of problems. But then I tried out the latest patch to see what's fixed and what's not. The game seems improved but still has some seriously annoying issues, namely:

1. Missed City Messages: the game will focus on a city and the little bongo thump sounds, but the message is not always displayed.

2. Lack of Feedback on Battles: First, there's no sound effects for battles, so you might miss the fact that a battle is even taking place. And if the AI attacks from a city, you don't see what's attacking, you only see your unit's health bar decline. AND if you attack into a city, you don't see what you are attacking or what kind of damage you are doing to the attacked unit.

3. Lack of Visual Prompt for Active Units: You find yourself staring in a state of hypnosis, waiting for something, anything, to happen. Then you realize one of your units up in a corner of the screen has been waiting for orders this whole time. Why not make them blink, as in Civ 1 and 2? The thin white circle is just not eye-catching enough.

4. Bombardment is Still Useless: 19 times out of 20 (no exaggeration) I get a message that "Bombardment Failed." This is especially annoying as the English when your Special Unit, the Man O'War, goes to pound a city and continuously fails. I see no way to change this in the editor, either. Also, like the missed city messages, there is sometimes no message at all to tell you what your bombardment did.

5. STILL No Way to Start in Historic Locations: This is an utter disgrace. There are downloadable tools to help with this (thank you, Gramphos), but they are somewhat involved processes. Can you imagine if you had to do to this in a game like Europa Universalis where there are hundreds of nations to arrange geographically? In Civ I and II, you clicked one button while starting the game and, magically, all the Civs started where they should. What's the problem here?

For the first time in ten years, there is no Civ game on my hard drive. This is because the game is now more annoying than it is fun. I don't plan on buying the expansion pack unless these issues are addressed. Adding more stuff to an annoying game only makes it more annoying. Please Firaxis, address these simple issues, and make the game fun again.

Note: Number of times the word "annoying" appears in this post: 5

[Coracle]

I can list fifty other things the game needs right now. Ending Culture Flipping tops that list.

If we Edited the game (and everyone should as the values from Firaxis are stupid) we can't use different maps unless we re-Edit every single map. So they can't be used. If Firaxis ever comes out with scenarios, we likely will have to do the same for them, also.

You should have Edited up your bombardment strengths and stop wasting your time with what Firaxis gave us - too weak.

We need automated bombardment: stack, and naval bombardment also.

Enemy roads SHOULD be usable for invaders.

The white circle is NOT enough, and useless on tundra where that damn Settler Diarrhea loves to build. The AI pewking out settlers and stupidily sending them out everywhere is second only to Culture Flipping of things I hate about Civ 3.

I won't buy the XP unless I get a rebate for their flawed, incomplete, beta game they stuck me with in November.

Why did you take Civ 2 off your PC? There are still plenty of scenarios to try out. I also suggest you try out Europa Universalis II if you're looking for a strategy game with more strategy and less tedium.

[Falconius]

Originally posted by Coracle
You should have Edited up your bombardment strengths and stop wasting your time with what Firaxis gave us - too weak.

I considered that. Does raising the strength make them more accurate?

[Cyclotron]

Strength makes them more likely to hit, ROF makes a successful hit take more hit points.

[Random Passerby]

Ironically, bombardment units are least effective against cities (where they're needed most). They can chew most units to pieces if they're out in the open, though... Mech Infantry and Modern Armor are tough to hurt until you get Radar Artillery, but you can blast Infantry down to 1 hp in no time flat.

Against cities though, again, it's a whole different story... expect to bombard a large infantry-defended city for several rounds with a couple dozen artillery before getting the defenders all down to 1 hp.



P.S. Small correction: ROF is not an all-or-nothing hitpoint deduction; higher ROF actually results in independent chances to inflict single points of damage; artillery, with ROF of 2, can do either 1 or 2 damage depending on how lucky you get.

[Panag]

hi ,

what still needs to be done ; well put IFE on the other side of the moon , ......

have a nice day

[WarpStorm]

Falconious

1. I've never seen this. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it.

2. Ditto. My battles all have sound. Did you turn off battle animations? If you did, of course you don't get feedback.

3. If there is a unit in the box in the lower right, it's waiting for an order.

4. Gotta agree with you here in cities. Out in the open they are just fine. There is some mystery defense factor going on in cities. There is probably something that can be done in the editor now (I'm gonna check).

5. Firaxis said this will be in the next patch.

Coracle

I agree, you will need to be able to mix and match parts of mods.

Firaxis said autobombard and proper stack moves are coming (probably not till the xp, though).

White circle on white terrain, yeah that needs work.


I don't believe in your Settler Diarrhea theory. I know this is a waste of my time but here goes...

First, the computer player will not build new cities if there will be a corruption hit. By this I mean, they will not build settlers if the city will never produce, nor will they ever build more that 2x optimal cities. At this point they switch to colonies. Now if you've changed the optimal number of cities to really high number or done other additional corruption reducing mods, they will keep expanding. You didn't lower corrupion to next to nothing did you?

Second, they don't play any more expansionistically than I do. I try to have my empire cover as much terrain as possible. Why do I do this? It's easier to win this way. There is a territory controlled victory condition for one. Every city no matter how useless (tundra and desert, for example) can easily generate a dozen culture points a turn for another. Those crappy areas (tundra, desert, and jungle) are where the good late game resources are. Why should the computer not play this way? Of course, on higher difficulties they can be more effective at it than me due to their bonuses, but that's why I play on higher difficulties.

[WarpStorm]

Addendum on bombardment.

In the editor, city walls apparently add 8 to the defense factor of stuff in the city against bombardment. The help file in the editor and the Civilopedia aren't clear on how this works with the other defense bonuses. You could try lowering this and see if it works.

I think the bombardment defense from walls does not go away all game.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Falconius
3. Lack of Visual Prompt for Active Units:

Press c to center unit.

4. Bombardment is Still Useless:

Not correct. Use it all the time. In this example, bombardment has reduced all the defending infantry to just one hp. Notice the tank army on Kagoshima Mountain ready for the attack.



http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/gotm5/1862ad.htm

5. STILL No Way to Start in Historic Locations: This is an utter disgrace.

Interesting that you chose the word "disgrace" in reference to a computer game.

[WarpStorm]

Addendum to my addendum on bombardment:

City walls only adds bombardment defense against land units, you need coastal fortress to protect against naval bombardments.

[Panag]

hi ,

-"historic starting points"- , use the tool from Gramhos , ....

have a nice day

[Zoid]

Falconius, that´s pretty crappy reasons not to play Civ3 IMO. I can´t belive that I´m saying this, but is Civ2 really better all things considered?

[ShredZ]

If this is all thats wrong with Civ3 then we're doing GREAT !!!

Im gonna go now and continue playing.... duh.

[Austin]

Large cities SHOULD be hard to take, even with massive bombardment.

You look at the gunpowder age, say 1600~1800 or so, wars went on for decades and the front lines barely moved.

Even afterwards with tanks and modern mobile warfare doctrine, taking a city was a large, bloody, frustrating, and often futile exercise (Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Aachen, Berlin, Sevastopol etc. etc.)

Don't blame the game system if you are as unimaginative as General Haig.

Austin

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Austin
Large cities SHOULD be hard to take, even with massive bombardment.

You look at the gunpowder age, say 1600~1800 or so, wars went on for decades and the front lines barely moved. . .

Don't blame the game system if you are as unimaginative as General Haig.

And I blame Soren for too MUCH imagination with that Culture Flipping crap.

Cities indeed should be hard to take - why a Military Engineer unit is needed to assist the attacker during sieges.

BTW, catapults were never historically used in open field battles after being built in cities and then dragged around. They were constructed ON THE SITE of a siege and used against walls and fortifications. So Soren got that wrong, too.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Falconius
Greetings everyone. I have not posted in a while because I stopped playing Civ III due to its myriad of problems. But then I tried out the latest patch to see what's fixed and what's not. The game seems improved but still has some seriously annoying issues, namely:

Okay, 60% of your complaints stem from your choices on the Preferences Menu.

1. Missed City Messages: the game will focus on a city and the little bongo thump sounds, but the message is not always displayed.

No comment - I play with sound off.

2. Lack of Feedback on Battles: First, there's no sound effects for battles, so you might miss the fact that a battle is even taking place. And if the AI attacks from a city, you don't see what's attacking, you only see your unit's health bar decline. AND if you attack into a city, you don't see what you are attacking or what kind of damage you are doing to the attacked unit.

Make sure to click the appropriate preferences items:
1. Show friend and enemy moves
2. Show firend and enemy animations.
3. Show defender in city (something like this)

3. Lack of Visual Prompt for Active Units: You find yourself staring in a state of hypnosis, waiting for something, anything, to happen. Then you realize one of your units up in a corner of the screen has been waiting for orders this whole time. Why not make them blink, as in Civ 1 and 2? The thin white circle is just not eye-catching enough.

Either hit "c" to center the view on the active unit, or look at the unit info map in the lower right of your screen - shows unit waiting for commands.

4. Bombardment is Still Useless: 19 times out of 20 (no exaggeration) I get a message that "Bombardment Failed." This is especially annoying as the English when your Special Unit, the Man O'War, goes to pound a city and continuously fails. I see no way to change this in the editor, either. Also, like the missed city messages, there is sometimes no message at all to tell you what your bombardment did.

Bombardment success depends on the bombard strength of the attacking unit and the defense of the target. If 19 failures out of 20, you must be attacking a much stronger defender than your attacker's bombard strength.

If you don't get a message, it means that you have hit something! A defender has taken a hit (you just can't see it because you haven't selected "Show defender in city" from the preferences menu as I suggested you do under point 2 above ).

5. STILL No Way to Start in Historic Locations.

Correct.

Catt

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Falconius
1. Missed City Messages: the game will focus on a city and the little bongo thump sounds, but the message is not always displayed.

Well, if that's your number one complaint (and you did put it first...) then you're setting yourself up for failure. Yeah, once in a while I've seen this, but it doesn't ruin gameplay for me.

2. Lack of Feedback on Battles

As others said, check your preferences. I have no trouble seeing/hearing/understanding how battles play out.

3. Lack of Visual Prompt for Active Units

Hit [c] to center the active unit, or click in the unit box to center the active unit, or check your preferences again - I think there's a preference to auto-center on the active unit.

4. Bombardment is Still Useless: [snip] Also, like the missed city messages, there is sometimes no message at all to tell you what your bombardment did.

If the city being bombarded is under FOW, you will not see the resulting damage to units in that city, but you'll know some damage occurred. Any buildings/etc. destroyed you should be getting a message, or the "No effect" message if not. Honestly, I have found repeatedly bombing a target city to have dramatic results, especially once the citizens start dying. Once that city gets below 12 (and later 6) the damage will increase as the defenders lose the defensive bonuses. Then again, the early ships and even destroyers take a while to achieve decent levels of damage. Like Napolean, you need to mass your artillery (or ships or bombers) to achieve optimal results. Also, if the enemy target has a barracks, the military units will regenerate every turn. So once the barracks is gone, the level of sustained damage will increase.

5. STILL No Way to Start in Historic Locations

This one I could care less about, as I only play on random maps. Still, seems odd to even bother including an "Earth" map if the thing is totally random as far as civ and resource placement are concerned. Still, help is on the way....

[Jaybe]

2. Lack of Feedback on Battles: First, there's no sound effects for battles, so you might miss the fact that a battle is even taking place. And if the AI attacks from a city, you don't see what's attacking, you only see your unit's health bar decline. AND if you attack into a city, you don't see what you are attacking or what kind of damage you are doing to the attacked unit.

If you are on a Mac, that is a 'known issue': no weapons fire audio, though there is bombardment audio. Otherwise, see others' comments on this.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Jaybe

If you are on a Mac, that is a 'known issue': no weapons fire audio, though there is bombardment audio. Otherwise, see others' comments on this.

hi ,

please tell us more , ....if possible post also in the MAC thread , ...
marines fire , infantry does , rifleman during moves no audio , in win98SE , 1.21 it does , ....

have a nice day

[planetfall]

Falconius-- you have not responded to a ton of suggestions on how to deal with your problem.

You are still playing at warlord, as someone who just started playing this year, I would strongly urge you to read the forums and get ideas on how to improve your game play. Part of the problem seems to be your preferences and editor settings. Another part is game skill level. Only the 3rd part, game limitations, is a barrier, and that barrier is not as big as the other 2 barriers.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking playing a non-edited game is "cheating". The editor is available for player customization in order to increase game play satisfaction.

[Gutz]

I know this is going back a bit in the discussion but I have been out for a while :-) Zachriel had posted that his bombardment had reduced all infantry to one hp. How do you know they are ALL reduced to one HP? I have not figured out how to see what the other defenders are in a given city except the one they show. Is there a way to see ALL the defenders. Sorry this is a bit off the initial topic of the thread .

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Gutz
I know this is going back a bit in the discussion but I have been out for a while :-) Zachriel had posted that his bombardment had reduced all infantry to one hp. How do you know they are ALL reduced to one HP? I have not figured out how to see what the other defenders are in a given city except the one they show. Is there a way to see ALL the defenders. Sorry this is a bit off the initial topic of the thread .

The best available defender is shown in an enemy's city, taking into account HPs and then defense factor. Thus, if the top unit is down to one HP, you know the rest of the defenders are as well. I have only seen this not to be the case in one instance: I had lowered several Mech Infantry units down to one HP each, then used a ground assault to dispatch them. Low and behold - a longbowman at full strength was still in the city. Luckily that defense of 1 was easily overcome with my Modern Tanks....

So, there must be some formula that decides which unit is the best defender, and displays that one on the map. HPs weigh very heavily, with defense factor having some impact on the calculation.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Gutz
I know this is going back a bit in the discussion but I have been out for a while :-) Zachriel had posted that his bombardment had reduced all infantry to one hp. How do you know they are ALL reduced to one HP? I have not figured out how to see what the other defenders are in a given city except the one they show. Is there a way to see ALL the defenders. Sorry this is a bit off the initial topic of the thread .

The best defender is shown, which is a one-hp infantry. There could be a four-hp longbowman hiding somewhere, but he would presumably be easier to kill than the infantry.

In the specific case, due to the intensive bombing there was little chance of any significant resistance in the target city.