Don't get me wrong, but...

[IncreduloDriver]

Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see a successful new Civ-like TBS game. But, your "business plan" for this one seems to contain as much fantasy as the game itself. Let me try to summarize it, as I understand:

1) Some volunteers start a barebones game that Vel can pitch to publishers/investors (so far so good)
2) These publishers/investors will give Vel money to continue making this game and eventually sell it (sounds great)
3) Vel will take that money and invest it in real estate, using the returns to fund potentially an infinite amount of further development ( there's something not quite right about this...)
4) After the game is mostly done and on the brink of completehood, Vel will give it away ( forgive me for being so skeptical, but this doesn't sound like a winning arrangement)
5) After a few more finishing touches, Vel will sell the game and presumably pay off the investors and volunteers will this cash

Major problems arise in steps 3 and 4, and partially 5. Starting with step 3:

While it's true that you COULD use real estate returns, or returns from any other investment, to fund a video game company, you would have to invest in TONS of real estate. A typical game with a standard crew will naturally incur millions of dollars worth of expenses over the course of its development. We all know from Firaxis' rush-it-out-the-door-for-Christmas policy that it's difficult to secure even a few million, or even hundred-thousand, to extend development on a guaranteed hit like Civ. How are you going to secure hundreds of millions in investment money (let's not kid ourselves, in order to get the types of returns needed, you're going to need hudreds of millions) necessary to fun this? You'd have to convince your investors that it's going to pay off--REALLY big time. Certainly not by promising the investors that your product isn't designed specifically to make money (see below). Forget everything about the volatility of the real estate market and inherent risk involved in any investment. What happens if the market turns sour in the middle of the game's development? Given another few years, your investments would certainly spring back. But investors aren't willing to have you sit on literally hundreds of millions of their dollars for a few years.

Which brings us to step 4:

The whole incentive for investors to invest here is gone. Investors want money, and lots of it. They have money, but they want more. Typically, a game company has no money, but has the ability to produce lots. It's a perfect match. However, in your model, you're going to give away most of the product. While this is great for the fans, and it's certainly much more extensive than a limited beta, it's bad for profit. This should be pretty obvious: give away a product, even if it's only mostly complete, and less folks--particularly the not-so-hardcore gamers--won't buy the final version. So the investors see this step, and it doesn't exactly inspire an epidemic of check-writingitis.

Which brings us to step 5:

Eventually, you hope to sell this game. Even if it's the best game in the world, and it sells decently, or even spectacularly, if development time is immense, no amount of sales will make up for the money burned during development. Since you're unwilling to commit to a specific publication date, because it could cause you to rush an unfinished product out the door, there's no guarantee (or even best-guess) that your sales are going to outweigh development costs. "It doesn't matter," you may say, "that's why we have the real estate! It'll pay for the costs, so the sales will be pure profit!" Remember those investors? They were expecting to actually make money here. You'll have to pay the with the sales money. And you'll have to pay them more than they would've made simply investing in real estate (which they could do on their own). So, bottom line is: sales must exceed development costs. And now you're right back where Firaxis, BHG, Ensemble, QS, and every other developer is. So, as you can now see, you need to think about the "business model" here a little bit more.

I'm not trolling here, honest. I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I love new Civ projects, and I'd love even more to see one done well. I'd be more than willing to help code, design, support, advertise, whatever it, but I want to make sure before it happens that the team knows exactly what it is. And I think it's the right of every member of the team to know what s/he is working toward. If this is Candle'Freeciv, I have absolutely no problem with that, but call it an open-source, voluntary game. Don't fool yourselves by calling it a business. If you want to develop a game with some other fans, make it as well as you can, and then sell it and make a few bucks on the side, that's wonderful. But, it's going to be difficult, if not impossible, to churn out a high-quality product that can compete with the likes of Civ3 without a team of highly experienced, highly dedicated, full-time, full-salaried developers. If you're looking for a 10-year development cycle (about the time it would take a few dozen on again, off again part-time-at-most college kids and pros to make a game like Civ3), that's okay, but say so up front. If it's a nice free game (or mod), like Counter-Strike, whose popularity may one day rocket it into the realm of commercial publication, all the better. But don't cloud your minds with the all-too-pleasant but all-too-unlikely prospect that *any* new game will become so popular so as to become a surprise best-seller. And certainly don't base your business plan around that unlikelihood.

I really hope you can make a great game here, and I'm more than willing to help you guys out any way I can. But, let's call a spade a spade, shall we?

[FrustratedPoet]

Thanks for your comments ... they were polite and insightful. Don't worry, I didn't "get you wrong" and it'll take an awful lot of rain to spoil our parade.

I'm not qualified to talk about the likelihood of success or failure on the business side of things ... that's not my department, but I think you raise several valid points. I assume you've already seen the Future of Firaxis thread, but if not then you should check it out.

I can't speak for the rest of the team, but I have no expectations of this project turning professional. I hope it will happen, of course, but I certainly don't expect it to. All I'm concerned about is trying to do all that I can to make the early versions of this game as fun as possible to play. I think that is an achievable goal given time, but i have no idea what will happen after that, or even if I will still be involved in the project by then.

Vel's plans for the business side of this project are certainly optimistic (by no means a bad thing), but whether or not they are unwisely optimistic I have neither the knowledge, nor inclination, to comment upon. Any potential success of this project is unlikey to affect me any more than it's failure would, in financial terms at least ... I don't expect to earn a penny from all of this and probably wouldn't be able to accept any future job offer even if one was made.

This is only my opinion, though, and like I said, I have no involvement in the business side of this.

BTW, if you really would like to help, even if it's only a little bit, then what would you be willing to do? You can't do graphics or sound by any chance, can you?

[SpencerH]

Yeah

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Yeah

You'll have to be more explicit than that Spencer , was that comment directed at me or Incredulo?

[Velociryx]

Just on for a bit taking a "Spare Vel's Eyeballs" break (working with Photoshop using a very early draft of our terrain set is fun, but OMG is it hard on the eyes after a while! I'm gonna have nightmares about fields and hills, marsh and mountains!

Anyway, I had a minute, so I thought I'd check in here and see how things were going, and I gotta echo FP's comments. No offense at all, you didn't rain on our parade, and your comments are quite well considered. That's a rare gift...the ability to express concern without getting combative....and it is much appreciated.

Rest assured that my brain is churning and chugging along on a near-constant basis covering the business angles so that the rest of the creative team doesn't have to.

And, now and again, certain elements of the overall plan change their shape and nature. For instance, I've taken comments here to heart regarding making use of VC money as a measure of last resort, and I see the wisdom in that thinking, and would very much like to do it purely "in house" (that is to say, relying on my own fundage, and that of others who are actively participating in the project and wish to invest).

It's true...I have an unconventional mindset. Thanks either to longstanding habit or a bizzare synaptic setup in my head, I have a tendency to think of things in a different light than usual...maybe that's not always a good thing (trust me, it's very often not a good thing!), but it's what I have to work with, and because I know it's true, I tend to surround myself with at least a few people in key positions who think very differently than I (in a way that I would call "grounded") so I can make sure I don't drift too close to the fringe.

On the surface of it, the notion of giving our game away sounds patently absurd. I readily admit that. Sounds too freaky to work, and maybe it will prove to be just that, but I don't think so, and I'm basing that assumption on the most time-honored technique of all...the hunch. A tickle in my gut and up the back of my spine that tells me I'm moving off in the right direction.

A hunch that's backed up by some (admittedly somewhat limited) experience.

Do I know what will happen in the end?

No I do not.

But I can tell you it'll be one of two things. Either people will watch in jaw-dropping amazement when the plan that simply couldn't work, works anyway, and we can all have some laughs and a few drinks about it later, talking about what miracle to work next, or, people scold me with good natured "I told you so's" as the whole thing crashes and burns around me, and we can all have some laughs and a few drinks about it later, talking about what might have been."

Either way, at the end of the day, I trust myself, and I trust the crew I've got working with me.

As to the rest...grab a seat and watch it unfold, or, shoot me an e-mail and get ready to roll up your sleeves and help make some magic....

-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

Absotively!

As long as there are a few laughs and a few drinks involved then I'll be happy ...

game? ... what game? Candle-what?

[Velociryx]

To borrow the word that Pyro coined for us...."Candle-Brewing"...

-=Vel=-
(PS: that's another thing that most folks aren't considering....sure, the game will be free, but one of the byproducts of inventing a world with such exquisite and wonderful detail are the natural offshoots of that.

Some potential "extras" that our fledgling company could also produce and not give away:

* Candle'Bre strategy guide (written by Prima, of course! )

* The usual array of tees, hats, mugs, keychains and mousepads

* Collected fiction (a fleshed out backstory, perhaps an epic poem or three....stuff like that)

* There's the possibility of framed concept art, posters and the like

* Or how 'bout a set of five beer steins, each bearing the crest of Candle'Bre on one side and one of the five houses on the other....might be kinna coolio...

* Boardgames or Card games that are unique to the game world, and mentioned in various stories...stuff like that

* any number of other things currently labelled mysteriously as "World Domination Secret Project"



-=Vel=-

[SpencerH]

HP..... started in a garage
apple..... pretty much the same thing
Microsoft, not much more.....IBM said it'll never work and started Bill Gates on the road to take over the world. Not that Vel and the boys are that way

FP yeah

[moomin]

I just want to chip in to say I'm amazed at the civility of this thread. Great stuff.

Perhaps we should move it to OT in order to get it more - energized?

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Velociryx

Card games that are unique to the game world, and mentioned in various stories...stuff like that

I wonder who we could get to come up with one of those in the space of a couple of hours.



I know! That would be me, wouldn't it?


/me is silenced for revealing a top-secret plan.

[Velociryx]

Better watch out....you know that we recently cloned Skanky Burns and are currently building a Skanky Mafia Army which we can use to sweep aside the Senate and....oh wait....that's already been done, hasn't it? :hmm:

DRAT! Back to the drawing board with me then....

-=Vel=-

[TCO]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
I just want to chip in to say I'm amazed at the civility of this thread. Great stuff.

Perhaps we should move it to OT in order to get it more - energized?

Reporting as ordered.

[TCO]

Incred, nice synopsis. Vel has heard most of these comments. (several times) Your post helpfully simplifies and unifies them all.

Just a technical point: Could you elaborate on what step 5 IS and what's wrong with it? That part wasn't clear.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by GP
Just a technical point: Could you elaborate on what step 5 IS and what's wrong with it? That part wasn't clear.

It's just what any other video game company would do. Send the product to the publisher, the publisher burns it, boxes it, and manuals it, and then you both make a pretty penny (hopefully). The problem with it here--sorry if I didn't make this clear--is that you'd have to pay off a HUGE investment, and you'd have to make an INCREDIBLE amount of money, since the investors are investing so much. I just don't see that happening with any game. The problem is compounded by the fact that you're going to release a near-complete game for free, and the less-hard-core fans will be happy with that. Even Civ3 (a pay-for-beta) hasn't made hundreds of millions of dollars in sales.

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
I can't speak for the rest of the team, but I have no expectations of this project turning professional. I hope it will happen, of course, but I certainly don't expect it to.

It's great that you've got that outlook. Basically, a couple of guys getting together to make a great game. It's a lot like FreeCiv and other open-source programs, then, and there's nothing wrong with that. Also, I did read that Future of Firaxis thread.

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
BTW, if you really would like to help, even if it's only a little bit, then what would you be willing to do? You can't do graphics or sound by any chance, can you?

I really would like to help, but I'm a CS major with an uncanny ability to write code and no artistic talent whatsoever. Sorry to let you down, you're probably filled to the brim with programmers But, if a coder leaves or dies or gets sick or something, I'd be happy to pick up a little slack sometime.

Originally posted by Velociryx
On the surface of it, the notion of giving our game away sounds
patently absurd.

Not at all. Plenty of games have done handsomely with this strategy--FreeCiv is a frequently recurring example. Even completely open or very open betas have done well for some games (Diablo 2 is a great example). There IS something a little crazy about releasing an almost complete game to the public and then expecting to charge for it later, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it.

Anyway, good luck!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver


It's just what any other video game company would do. Send the product to the publisher, the publisher burns it, boxes it, and manuals it, and then you both make a pretty penny (hopefully). The problem with it here--sorry if I didn't make this clear--is that you'd have to pay off a HUGE investment, and you'd have to make an INCREDIBLE amount of money, since the investors are investing so much. I just don't see that happening with any game. The problem is compounded by the fact that you're going to release a near-complete game for free, and the less-hard-core fans will be happy with that. Even Civ3 (a pay-for-beta) hasn't made hundreds of millions of dollars in sales.

OK. Again, not wishing to dredge up old arguments but at present most of that is hearsay (I almost wrote heresy ).
To date they have :-
(a) volunteers investing their time/effort of their own accord. Of course, this won't continue indefinitely.
(b) Development costs basically restricted to whatever software/hardware they require to get the job done. No idea here how much of this is free due to the open-source thing.
(c) No investors to pay off. Unless there are those who have already made a financial commitment - Vel hasn't mentioned any such AFAIK.
(d) No commitment of any publishers funds to cd burning/marketting/packaging/handling. Again this may be incorrect but it hasn't been commented upon by any of the team here so I assume that to be the case. If they absolutely had to they could burn the cd's themselves and mail them with a pdf file ( ) as a manual.
Net cost (and even here they could take pre-orders. ie: No burning/mailing until cash received) - something like $5 per copy.
(Not including legal fees, etc here though).

Bottom line - They don't have the same development costs as any other game company. They certainly don't have anywhere near the financial risks generally associated with software development and they don't have to sell x thousands of copies to as much as break even.
At the end of it all they will have to assess whether or not their time/effort was worthwhile, whether or not their gains (financial, prestige, etc) make it viable to continue with other projects (of which Vel has already been putting out ideas) and what future commitments will be needed (Its probably a little much to try and make another one on a "volunteer" basis ).

[Edit: lousy punctuation]

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver
1) Some volunteers start a barebones game that Vel can pitch to publishers/investors (so far so good)

Indeed. This is okay so far.

2) These publishers/investors will give Vel money to continue making this game and eventually sell it (sounds great)

Sounds great, but therein is your first problem. Getting money for an unfinished project is not that easy. I don't know if you know of it, but Stars! Supernova Genesis is a multiplayer TBS game in development. It is the sequal to Stars!, which was a fairly successful published game (by Empire Interactive) and has a very large and devout following. S!SnG is almost certainly going to be a big hit. The game is in late beta stage, being produced by a design house (Mare Crisium) with a proven winning track record, and they can't get a publisher to finish footing the bill for the project (which is in it's *final* testing stages!!). A publisher could make a mint off of this game without much risk, yet none will do it, due to the current bad economic climate and publisher's general unwillingness to even *look* at TBS games (Empire was going to publish it, and footed a lot of the design bill, but for some unknown reason they pulled out, no one is saying why).

That doens't bode well for TCoCB or MD for finding a publisher, does it? Neither development house has the sort of track record that Mare Crisium has The best we can do is create the greatest game we can with the resources we have and hope someone notices it, or just say the hell with it and self publish (which is what we (the MD development team) are going to do). Of course, you don't get advances that way, so you have to be able to support yourself and your team while development happens.....somehow..... On the upside, you get to keep 100% of the sales

3) Vel will take that money and invest it in real estate, using the returns to fund potentially an infinite amount of further development ( there's something not quite right about this...)

Pipe dream. No way are you going to convince investers/publishers to give you money with no intent of putting it *directly* into the game development process. Ain't gonna happen. They don't just give you money, they expect full and frequent reports on exactly where and what that money is doing, and if it isn't something to do with game programming, I would expect you'd have a few legal-type court-date issues to deal with

4) After the game is mostly done and on the brink of completehood, Vel will give it away ( forgive me for being so skeptical, but this doesn't sound like a winning arrangement)

Actually, Inc, that's not as crazy as it first sounds. Open Beta tests are pretty common. And often they are date stamped and expire after a while (and no longer run). Even when they don't, a Beta isn't a finished game, it will have issues, and these issues will (hopefully!) be fixed in version 1.0 and beyond. Not to mention final versions come on a CD with a full manual. I don't personally think open beta's hurt sales very much, if at all. They may even help (user gets free d/l, user finds they *like* this game, user goes and buys the final version).

5) After a few more finishing touches, Vel will sell the game and
presumably pay off the investors and volunteers will this cash

Replace "investors and volunteers" with "publishers" and you have the basics of the current software sales system. I have some knowledge of the industry, some first hand, some researched, and here is what I can tell you about how the developer/publisher relationship works. This may not be 100% accurate, but it should be pretty close to the mark....

Vel and his team, as developers, would get 10-15% of gross. Of course, they don't get a dime unless/until they pay off advances recieved. Suppose Vel takes a $500,000 advance and signs a contract for 10%. The game ships, and sells 100,000 copies at $50 each. 5 million dollars. At 10%, Vels cut would be $500,000 dollars. He sees nothing at this point, having just paid of what he borrowed (at this stage the publisher has made a cool 4.5 million minus expenses (which are admittedly not inconsiderable)). From this point on, the publisher should then send him $5 per item sold. Some publishers are not so good about this, and the developers must hound them for their royalties. I've heard about it going to court before (the publishers handle all the money and the books on what has sold, and if they really want to screw the devs, there's nothing really to stop them, beyond a court-appointed audit). I think most, though, are pretty up-standing about it. They want to maintain a good relationship with the dev teams, so that they can get the publishing rights to the sequals or next projects or whatever comes next (make sure your contract states that you, as the developer, maintiain full rights to the conceptual property. If you give these to the publisher (and some will try to get them), you can not do a sequal to your own game without their permission!).

Note that it is not at all unusual for a developer never to see any royalties at all from a game, as the game often doesn't sell well enough to pay off the advances. In extreme cases, I've seen developers sued to return advances for a very poor selling game, though that's rare (and should you find yourself looking over a development contract, one thing (out of many) you should make sure of is that advances are non-returnable irregardless of sales. You almost certainly will have to return all advances if you fail to complete the project, they're pretty unforgiving about that. Sometimes advances are paid on completion of certain milestones which are spelled out in the contract. Ech, I could go on and on, I better stop ).

How are you going to secure hundreds of millions in investment money (let's not kid ourselves, in order to get the types of returns needed, you're going to need hudreds of millions) necessary to fun this?

No, you're off there. No game ever in existance has had a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars. The most expensive games to develop (presumably) are the Massive Multiplayer games (heavy hardware requirements (ie banks of servers) + huge teams working for 3-5 years). Asheron's Call had a 48 month development cycle, using 30+ full time people, and they had a "multi-million" dollar budget (which I think inherently implies <<100 million). Supposing the average salery was $50K (I'm just guessing) for 30 people, that's 6 mill. Saleries are by far the most expensive part of running any business, but let's be generous and tack on another 4 mill for other expenses. $10,000,000 to develop a 4 year project with 30 people. Hell, let's say I'm off by a factor of two and double that. 20 mill. You're still a long way off from "hundreds of millions"

And TCoCB won't require anything like that kind of expenditure, I would imagine.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound defeatist, but Vel, I think if you're going to seriously dabble in this industry, you should know a bit about it It ain't about the money. Love what you're doing, or don't do it, heh.

Vel, I suggest your whole team, but especially you, read this article http://www.avault.com/developer/geta...ardell7&page=1 (especially page 2, although all of it applies to both of our situations). It's full of GREAT advice.

(hmmm, I hope I don't come off sounding preachy in this post It's late, and sometimes I just babble )

Ron

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by ravagon
(a) volunteers investing their time/effort of their own accord. Of course, this won't continue indefinitely.

Presumably this means they'll be paid? By whom? With what money?

(b) Development costs basically restricted to whatever software/hardware they require to get the job done.

Plus salaries for the people working on the project. Unless the people aren't paid, in which case it's just like the myriad of other alt-Civ projects like FreeCiv. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

(c) No investors to pay off.

Money has to come from somewhere before it's used.

(d) No commitment of any publishers funds to cd burning/marketting/packaging/handling. Again this may be incorrect but it hasn't been commented upon by any of the team here so I assume that to be the case. If they absolutely had to they could burn the cd's themselves and mail them with a pdf file ( ) as a manual.
Net cost (and even here they could take pre-orders. ie: No burning/mailing until cash received) - something like $5 per copy.
(Not including legal fees, etc here though).

Bleem! did something like this. It works great, but you've got to have a product first, and you'll have to pay people to develop it first, unless, again, it stays voluntary and goes down the FreeCiv or Counter-Strike paths.

Bottom line - They don't have the same development costs as any other game company.

If they're not a game development company, but instead a group of folks just trying to make a good game, then of course they won't have the same development costs. Unpaid people working together don't make a commercial game company, they make a "team". That's fine, it's just not a viable business plan.

Again, just want to say I'm not criticizing the way FreeCiv was made, I think it's a fine game. Just that it wasn't made by a game company.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Velociryx

Some potential "extras" that our fledgling company could also produce and not give away:

* Candle'Bre strategy guide (written by Prima, of course! )

Excellent. Now's my chance. In the hopes of getting the outsourced contract I have taken the liberty of prepared a number of highly useful strategies...

(1) Errr, build armies!

(2) Umm, Capture more provinces!

(3) Use armies to capture provinces! I'm on a roll now!

(4) Hmmm, Invest gold in technology!

(6) Errr, Find some way to get gold!

I think I'm a shoe-in for the job.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by RonHiler
Sounds great, but therein is your first problem. Getting money for an unfinished project is not that easy.

It "sounds great" because that's what commercial developers do. It's a necessary part of a sound business plan. It may be difficult, but it's what everybody developing a game has to do.

Pipe dream. No way are you going to convince investers/publishers to give you money with no intent of putting it *directly* into the game development process. Ain't gonna happen. They don't just give you money, they expect full and frequent reports on exactly where and what that money is doing, and if it isn't something to do with game programming, I would expect you'd have a few legal-type court-date issues to deal with

My point exactly.

Actually, Inc, that's not as crazy as it first sounds. Open Beta tests are pretty common. And often they are date stamped and expire after a while (and no longer run). Even when they don't, a Beta isn't a finished game, it will have issues, and these issues will (hopefully!) be fixed in version 1.0 and beyond. Not to mention final versions come on a CD with a full manual. I don't personally think open beta's hurt sales very much, if at all. They may even help (user gets free d/l, user finds they *like* this game, user goes and buys the final version).

As I stated earlier in the thread, an open beta is fine. Blizzard did that with Diablo 2, it was time expired, and I'm sure it inspired interest in the final version. But Vel, as far as I know, wants to release a *nearly complete* game for free. Would releasing Civ3 for free, but without the Romans, hurt sales of the Civ3-***-Romans? Definately. Open betas are great--final product giveaways are not. (Kindly read the whole thread and everybody's posts to avoid misunderstanding comments, as you have done in this case)

Replace "investors and volunteers" with "publishers" and you have the basics of the current software sales system.

That's my point. Publisher and investor are interchangable in this case.

No, you're off there. No game ever in existance has had a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars

Again, you need to read my post *before* you comment on it. You'll need hundreds of millions of dollars to *generate the returns* necessary to fund the development. To generate a guaranteed 2-4 million over 2 years, you're going to need serious investment in real estate. This *was* Vel's whole plan, though it possibly has changed.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound defeatist, but Vel, I think if you're going to seriously dabble in this industry, you should know a bit about it It ain't about the money. Love what you're doing, or don't do it, heh.

The money plays a big part, especially when determining whether you'll work full- or part-time. You can't feed your family with prestige, after all.

I think this game'll turn out great, but it'll probably be another all-voluntary work, like many others.

[ravagon]

Ok. Bear in mind that I'm mostly speculating here ...

Originally posted by IncreduloDriver

Presumably this means they'll be paid? By whom? With what money?

Paid out of whatever funds they manage to generate. ie: after the development period has finished. Key point is that in using volunteer labour they are not running up big debts.

Plus salaries for the people working on the project. Unless the people aren't paid, in which case it's just like the myriad of other alt-Civ projects like FreeCiv. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

As far as I can tell this is exactly the model they are working under with the goal of generating an extremely low-cost product before trying to turn "profitable" at which point they can start paying salaries/wages/shares etc. I'm not going to speculate on this any further as it probably isn't a topic for public consumption.

Money has to come from somewhere before it's used.

The whole point of the volunteer aspect and the open-source product angle is that it doesn't require much at all until right at the end when they'll have to output cd's/manuals etc. At that time they can expect to have a solid product to show any investors/publishers (ie: a low-risk, hence fairly attractive prospect) or they can take a pretty much no-cost option of doing it themselves for cash in advance.

Bleem! did something like this. It works great, but you've got to have a product first, and you'll have to pay people to develop it first, unless, again, it stays voluntary and goes down the FreeCiv or Counter-Strike paths.

Can't comment as I know nothing whatsoever about anything other than Freeciv (and AFAIK that wasn't intended as a commercial venture?).

If they're not a game development company, but instead a group of folks just trying to make a good game, then of course they won't have the same development costs. Unpaid people working together don't make a commercial game company, they make a "team". That's fine, it's just not a viable business plan.

Again, just want to say I'm not criticizing the way FreeCiv was made, I think it's a fine game. Just that it wasn't made by a game company.

Again, I think that's basically splitting hairs. Vel stated at the outset that this wasn't going to be done in the same way that standard game companies did things. Unpaid people investing what time they can spare rather than funds, developing their first product before needing/wanting investment capital for their final output, or for further ventures, doesn't make their master plan non-viable. Non-conventional surely but not non-viable.

Of course his Supreme Excellency Emporer Vel (I didn't call him Sir! ) may refute any/all of this at any time for all I know. Thats just my understanding at present...

[TCO]

Incred,

Your point 5 is still a little murky (you mixed in some of the previous points! )

But to respond anyway:

-you, I and everybody else knows that the real estate *** game development scheme is a non-starter. I'm sure that Vel is the only one on the team pushing it. And at this point, with volunteer labor, it is unnecessary, anyhow.

-Maybe he planned on generating returns from real estate without capitol. You know: "no money down". There are some good programs on TV (about this time of night) on how to do this...

-If he had somehow actually gotten hundreds of millions invested to support real estate acquisitions, he WOULDN'T need to recoup all of that from game sales. Because of course, the real estate protfolio has value itself and could be liquidated.


Anyhow, I think we should take it a little easy on Vel in terms of the funky business concept. He's mostly been concentrating on the game lately and hasn't been pushing the strange scheme for financing any further.

If you strip off the real estate thing, what it becomes is a Freeciv project with the difference being that they may sell the game instead of give it away. Volunteers being repayed with money from these sales if they ever happen. (Or perhaps being given equity stakes well beofre the project reaches completion.) In this sense the volunteers would be the investors. Like a free-lance journalist writing a piece on speculation. (They are speculating with their time.) This is one reason we've pushed Vel to think about ownership/equity for the project. What are the shares? How do you handle a volunteer who drops out of the project, etc.? At this point most of the volunteers are in it more for the learning and the fun than for the financial upside.

[TCO]

The article in Vault is quite good.

Just read it!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by GP
If you strip off the real estate thing, what it becomes is a Freeciv project with the difference being that they may sell the game instead of give it away. Volunteers being repayed with money from these sales if they ever happen. (Or perhaps being given equity stakes well beofre the project reaches completion.) In this sense the volunteers would be the investors. Like a free-lance journalist writing a piece on speculation. (They are speculating with their time.) This is one reason we've pushed Vel to think about ownership/equity for the project. What are the shares? How do you handle a volunteer who drops out of the project, etc.? At this point most of the volunteers are in it more for the learning and the fun than for the financial upside.

Very well put methinks. Albeit with the intention of "hiring" the freelancers if they end up with a commercial product.

I really don't think public speculation as to the arrangements for divvying up the profits if/when they start flowing in is in their best interests though - kind of like creating a conflict where none previously existed, or a self-fulfilling prophecy.
That stuff is private and should be left that way.


Maybe they could think about a "Management consultant"?

j/k

[moomin]

Frankly, gentlemen, we've been through all this. Several times in fact. GP already stated the current consenus on the issue among the concerned parties... and that's pretty much everything there is to say about it 'till some further info concerning biz news emerges from Team Candy.

[TCO]

I disagree, ravagon. This sort of thing is better thought through up front. It helps minimze the strife later on.

[moomin]

GP, they should do it up front, we all agree. But probably not here.

[TCO]

sorry, I'll shut up. Moomie is right that we are rehashing things...

[TCO]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
GP, they should do it up front, we all agree. But probably not here.

agreed.

FYI: I posted before seeing your comment to rav...

[moomin]

I know. Never been too good about heeding my own advice.

[IncreduloDriver]

Originally posted by GP
Incred,

Your point 5 is still a little murky (you mixed in some of the previous points! )

Oy... sorry I guess the step in and of itself is fine, but it doesn't work when combined with the others.

But to respond anyway:

-you, I and everybody else knows that the real estate *** game development scheme is a non-starter. I'm sure that Vel is the only one on the team pushing it. And at this point, with volunteer labor, it is unnecessary, anyhow.

I'm still laughing about c-u-m getting asterisked out. Otherwise,

-Maybe he planned on generating returns from real estate without capitol. You know: "no money down". There are some good programs on TV (about this time of night) on how to do this...

-If he had somehow actually gotten hundreds of millions invested to support real estate acquisitions, he WOULDN'T need to recoup all of that from game sales. Because of course, the real estate protfolio has value itself and could be liquidated.

You would'nt have to recoup ALL the money, but you'd have to recoup a whole heck of a lot, because investors aren't investing to break even, they want MORE, and they'd have to get more than simply investing in real estate by themselves would produce. So, you'd have to sell a lot of copies.

Anyhow, I think we should take it a little easy on Vel in terms of the funky business concept. He's mostly been concentrating on the game lately and hasn't been pushing the strange scheme for financing any further.

You're completely right. Amen!

If you strip off the real estate thing, what it becomes is a Freeciv project with the difference being that they may sell the game instead of give it away. Volunteers being repayed with money from these sales if they ever happen. (Or perhaps being given equity stakes well beofre the project reaches completion.) In this sense the volunteers would be the investors. Like a free-lance journalist writing a piece on speculation. (They are speculating with their time.) This is one reason we've pushed Vel to think about ownership/equity for the project. What are the shares? How do you handle a volunteer who drops out of the project, etc.? At this point most of the volunteers are in it more for the learning and the fun than for the financial upside.

Awesome, I hope that's exactly what this turns into, because it's a pretty nifty idea.

I think the Moomster is right, I guess a lot of this has been discussed before, so we should probably sit back and see what happens next.

On a side note, doesn't anybody know when to use the guy? I've wondered about this for years.