Apartheid in Israel

[CyberGnu]

Ned, how could I have confirmed your observation when you apparently didn't read my post?

Ideology only comes in when people like siro claims that Israel should be allowed to execute all palestinians because the land is properly Israels anyway.

And idelogically, I think the world would be much better off with one less fascist state around. One built on stolen land with the backing of the worlds sole remaining superpower, no less.


But practially, I want Israel to stop being fascist and basically behave in a civilized manner. If you don't consider that a practical goal I don't understand how you can defend Israel at all... And since reality always wins over ideology, this is the solution we have to strive for.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ned, how could I have confirmed your observation when you apparently didn't read my post?

Ideology only comes in when people like siro claims that Israel should be allowed to execute all palestinians because the land is properly Israels anyway.

And idelogically, I think the world would be much better off with one less fascist state around. One built on stolen land with the backing of the worlds sole remaining superpower, no less.


But practially, I want Israel to stop being fascist and basically behave in a civilized manner. If you don't consider that a practical goal I don't understand how you can defend Israel at all... And since reality always wins over ideology, this is the solution we have to strive for.

Alright, I'll bite. What should Israel do differently now?

[MOBIUS]

You are priceless!!!

Your link http://www.mideastweb.org/PalPop.htm backs my claims up 100%

I said:

In the 20’s the Jewish population of Palestine was only about 11%.

You said:

Sorry Moby, your figures are all wrong, maybe you should do some reading up on the facts.

Your little website conveniently points out that the percentage of Jews in Palestine in 1922 is 11.14%. Thanks for giving be the ammunition to prove that it is you who should do some reading up on the facts!

I said:

The only reason they might make up a third of the population by ’48 is because of illegal immigration / Here’s a website to prove it http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm

You said:

They show how the British carefully controlled Jewish immigration, and there was nothing "illegal" about it, so stop saying that, it's baseless.

Seeing as you obviously didn’t read the website link I gave you, I’ll have to copy it below…

Despite the back and forth policy of the British, first supporting one side then the other, Jewish immigration did increase. In 1935 approx. 60,000 Jews moved into Palestine. In 1936 An Arab revolt broke out based on the fear that outsiders were going to take over their country. There were intermittent attacks on various Jewish settlements until 1939. By that date the British had managed to contain the Jewish immigrants, and the struggle for Palestine abated during WW2.
After the war, the struggle resumed and although Britain refused to admit 100,000 Jewish survivors of the Nazi death camps, large numbers gained entry by illegal means. In 1947 Britain declared the mandate unworkable and passed the problem over to the United Nations.

In the later Months of 1945 came an influx of refugees from central Europe organised by the Zionist Movement. Their aim was to create a Jewish State in the promised land.

Small Craft started to land illegal immigrants on the coast at night and the Royal Navy was asked to intercept them and bring them into Haifa, the Only Port on the Palestine Coast which could handle ships of any size. In the Years that followed up to 1948 Sailors of the Royal Navy dealt with numerous illegal ships carrying Immigrants. In the early stages only primitive coastal craft were encountered, but soon larger vessels arrived, all of them overcrowded and in poor and dangerous condition. But by the August of 1948 six large vessels had been arrested within two weeks, and accommodation in the camps ashore was at such a critical level that fresh arrivals were switched to Ministry of War transport ships and re-routed to Cyprus under escort.

This change of policy meant that illegal vessels would no longer stop when challenged. The use of ships weapons would have led to heavy casualties and warships now had to get alongside to transfer boarding parties. Immigrant vessels often would maneuver violently to avoid being boarded, a practice which could easily have led to a serious collision.

Boarding parties were often opposed by crowds armed with clubs, iron bars, and other implements that could and were used as weapons and since the crews of the illegal vessels often sabotaged their engines in order to claim that they had not entered territorial waters willingly, they often had to be taken in tow when they were in imminent danger of running aground. The Destroyers H.M.S. Providence, and H.M.S. Chevron also rescued over 800 survivors from a illegal immigrant vessel which sank off a Greek Island. Once the order away boarders was given in some cases the boarding parties would have to fight their way to the bridge to gain control of the ship.

The best known incident was when the former SS President Warfield (alias Exodus 1947) attempted to bring in 4.500 would be immigrants in the July of 1947, she was intercepted by a force that included the Cruiser H.M.S. Ajax. The destroyers had a very difficult time putting boarders on board and were badly damaged, after two hours of fighting the boarding parties finally gained control of the ship and steamed the vessel into Haifa. One crewman and two immigrants died from their injuries and two boarders seriously injured. The courage, determination and restraint of the boarding parties were crucial to the success of these missions. Once the vessel was under control they invariably behaved in a friendly and helpful manner towards the immigrants. Service in the Patrol was recognized by the award of the Naval General Service Medal. From start to finish 49 illegal immigrant vessels were arrested by the RN and some 66.000 people detained.

The fact is, using your very informative website (thank you so much! ), the Jewish population in Palestine more than quintupled from 83,790 in 1922 – to 445,457 in 1939!!! Much of it illegally! Unfortunately you figures don’t go past 1942, so we can’t see the impact of the second mass wave of illegal immigrations after the war. But we can read about the violent tactics they used above!

I also reiterate a question (the main question), if the British were handling the immigration as amicably as you suggest – why was there a large Jewish terrorist organisation attacking them???

Dodging the question?

End of Part One (Cal shoots himself in the foot!)

[CyberGnu]

Get out of the occupied territory (i.e. beyond the 67 borders).

Acknowledge the sovereignty of a viable palestinian state (including air space, water rights, etc). If Israel has complaints, let a third party handle arrests. Under no circumstances should Israel soliders be allowed to enter palestinian territory.

Solve the ROR, either by financially compensate nations willing to accept the refugees (possibly including the nascent palestinian state), or by partitioning off a (decent) third of Israel, or a combination of the two. Make the partioned land either a part of the new palestine or a separate state. (Or maybe a part of lebanon... Is that feasible at all?). This part must, of course, be viable as well. This is why the part closest to lebanon might be best...


And of course, treat the arabs living in Israel like equals. You'd think that that would be a given, but since at least Siros attitude is that they are treated equally right now, this apparently needs quite a lot of work too...

[MOBIUS]

Why do you:
A: Insist the jews have no rights, when they cleary do

That’s BS and you know it – why do you constantly use this extremely annoying tactic of putting words into my mouth/twist my words???

Jews should have as many rights (but not more!) as the next person!

The point of this thread Apartheid in Israel, is that they quite patently have ‘far more rights’ than Arabs within the Israel ZOC!

That is racist! Or religionist, or whatever. The plain fact is that it divides two groups of peoples into those that are privileged, and those that are discriminated against!

It is a form of Apartheid!

B:Continue to bring up New Zealand?

Because, for the millionth time…

If you support the right of the Jewish people to reclaim their land after over 1,000 years, then surely you should be willing to allow the Maoris to reclaim their land after over 100 years! To support one without supporting the other is an hypocritical stance – plain and simple!

Obviously I continue to bring it up – to show you up as a hypocrite…

Do your feelings toward Israel have another motivation? Since you refuse to accept the legality of their nation.

My Cal, I’m afraid I don’t understand what you could mean…

Surely the fact that the nation of Israel in it’s current incarnation is illegal in the eyes of the UN is reason enough…

I guess another motivation would be justice for a people who have been forced off their land, had it stolen and that those that still live inside Israel are treated like 2nd class citizens?

From that comment regarding the maoris it seems you support racial separation in New Zealand. Kind of racist dont you think? Not only that, but how will you distinguish maori from pakeha when there are no full-blooded maoris left?

No, I do not support racist separation – where did you ever get that I’d from?

I don't claim to have all the answers. But, because of the passage of time, you cannot realistically expect Pakeha who were innocent of the original land grab to give up their lands – that would be unfair! Actually, as unfair as expecting an Israeli to do the same in Israel.

What could be done is to give them compensation, as per the Maori Fisheries etc and maybe give them an autonomous region say on the East Cape? If the Maori decide to move there and the Pakeha move out – it is their choice.

As for distinguishing Maori and Pakeha, there are official methods – though I do agree that the Pakeha did do a pretty good job of killing off all the Maori and assimilating the rest so that there are no “full bloods” left. But they still have a strong language and culture!

The whole comparison with the ME is irrelevant anyway, so why do you keep bringing it up?

It’s entirely relevant – it is about a people reclaiming land that was once theirs! That’s what the Israelis have done – so why not the Maori?

Could it be because you have no rational argument for the ME, you think that bringing up the Maoris will make me defensive?

That’s why you proved part of my argument with your web link…

Actually bringing up the Maoris is merely to prove your argument is hypocritical. If you were an American poster, I would bring up the Native Americans…

Though I would say that seeing as you keep mentioning my mentioning it (and dodging the issue), that you are indeed on the defensive!

Nonsense. NO islamic culture has EVER allowed non Islamics any say whatsoever, it goes against Sharia.

Dealing in absolutes now… Ramo has the floor with this…

Even Ned says a few posts later talking about the Crusades…

They denied Christian free access to the holy places unlike the former Arab rulers.

Weren’t the Arabs an Islamic culture?

Cal exposed for talking BS!

[DinoDoc]

Personally, I could back Gnu's arguement wholeheartedly if he could find it within himself to draw a distinction between attacking the IDF and murdering men women and children.

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Get out of the occupied territory (i.e. beyond the 67 borders).

Acknowledge the sovereignty of a viable palestinian state (including air space, water rights, etc). If Israel has complaints, let a third party handle arrests. Under no circumstances should Israel soliders be allowed to enter palestinian territory.

Solve the ROR, either by financially compensate nations willing to accept the refugees (possibly including the nascent palestinian state), or by partitioning off a (decent) third of Israel, or a combination of the two. Make the partioned land either a part of the new palestine or a separate state. (Or maybe a part of lebanon... Is that feasible at all?). This part must, of course, be viable as well. This is why the part closest to lebanon might be best...


And of course, treat the arabs living in Israel like equals. You'd think that that would be a given, but since at least Siros attitude is that they are treated equally right now, this apparently needs quite a lot of work too...

Well, It looks after all like we are on the same page. We can quibble about the '67 borders a bit, but the goal of US policy is the the same or equivalent to the above.

On ROR, this, of course, is a two way street. There were a lot of Jewish refugees from Arab lands that should also be compensated.

However, and I hope you understand this, all of the above depends upon a total Arab end to violence.

I would also add as a condition of negotiations that there be a viable, democratic Palestinian state. We cannot and should not trust the new Palestinian state to an authoritarian strongman whose whole history has been dedicated to violence and who has never known the rule of law. It is time for real democracy in Palestine.

[Ned]

BTW, There is a poll on CNN that asks the question of whether peace is possible with Arafat. 83% say no.

Arafat is the problem.

[Ned]

More of Arafat's doing:

From CNN today:

"Israeli troops -- who ringed Arafat's compound with tanks and swept across the city making arrests -- discovered two cars they said were loaded with explosives and destined for terror attacks.

The IDF said the cars were filled with "explosives containing tens of kilograms of TATP-type [triacetone triperoxide] explosive materials and other explosive devices."

Israeli identity cards were found along with documents related to the Palestinian Authority, the IDF statement said. "

[Caligastia]

Moby-

You are just another anti-semitic brit. Anti-semitism has a long history in your country, and you are carrying on the tradition.

Ever heard of the Exodus 1947?

http://www.ultranet.com/~ltolman/exodus.htm

The vessel was loaded with holocaust survivors, the british navy boarded it in international waters and forced it to return to.....GERMANY
They also killed several of the crew in the process. The brit authority ordered a "shoot on site" order on Jewish immigrants. They didnt have such a policy on the arabs.

Jordan's military was commanded by John Glubb, a SERVING british officer, when it attacked the Jews in 48.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-

You are just another anti-semitic brit. Anti-semitism has a long history in your country, and you are carrying on the tradition.

Oh that's right - you lose the argument, so you insult me...

Please get your facts straight as it is becoming rather tiresome constantly correcting you...

How could I possibly be anti-semitic, when the arabs indiginous to the region (let's call them Palestinians because they live in Palestine ) are also semitic???

I can safely be called 'Anti-Zionist'. In fact I welcome it - go right ahead and call me an Anti-Zionist...

Ever heard of the Exodus 1947?

http://www.ultranet.com/~ltolman/exodus.htm

The vessel was loaded with holocaust survivors, the british navy boarded it in international waters and forced it to return to.....GERMANY

Well DUH! Of course I have, I gave you a direct link (albeit a British source!)...

I see you have decided to quote a rabidly pro-Israeli site...

As usual you twist the facts to suit your needs...

1) Because there were so many ships running illegal immigrants, the internment camps in Cyprus (no worse than the Australian treatment of the Afghans sent to Nauru!) were overflowing!

2) The illegal immigrants refused to be interned in France - so only then were they sent back to Germany...

BTW that's a Germany that had already been defeated for two years!

Maybe that's harsh, but they were given a choice - I don't remember your adopted country giving the Haitian refugees a choice when they drown off the shores of FL, like a bunch did only the other month. Those that get 'rescued' are promptly returned from whence they came! Things in Haiti aren't so bad now - but they were when the refugees were fleeing for their lives from the infamous 'Tonton Macout' (sp?) of the Duvalier Duo...

Don't throw stones in glass houses, Cal... *tut, tut*

They also killed several of the crew in the process. The brit authority ordered a "shoot on site" order on Jewish immigrants. They didnt have such a policy on the arabs.

They used deadly force to repel the British - are you going to finally read my link or what!?!? This is the third time I'm posting it! http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm

Jordan's military was commanded by John Glubb, a SERVING british officer, when it attacked the Jews in 48.

Link please.

Now you can answer my previous posts, instead of hurling slanderous allegations...

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ned
BTW, There is a poll on CNN that asks the question of whether peace is possible with Arafat. 83% say no.

Arafat is the problem.

hi ,

yep , Ned he is one big problem , and if he and the hardheads leave it would be nice , ...

the problem with these guys is that they like war so much , they dont want to do anything else , ....the love it , so if we can get them out , peace is around the corner

have a nice day

[CyberGnu]

Dino, I see what you mean, but I fail to find a difference between palestinian resistance and say, the bombing of Hiroshima.

I can agree that deliberately targeting children when there are military targets equally accessible is hard to defend, but if the target is more general I have to say that the blood of the children is on the hads of the parents who brought them there.

[Caligastia]

Moby-

Okay, youre anti-jew then do you like that better?

[CyberGnu]

Ned, the problem isn't Arafat. He might be the least trustworthy man in the known universe, but it is still not his fault that Israel is occupying Palestine...

Much like DeGaulle, who by most accounts was a megalomanic bastard... Still doesn't mean he was responsible for the occupation of France.

And the only two things that CNN poll says is that Israeli propaganda is really good (which we all knew) and that there are lots of easily duped americans (not exactly news either).

I do appreciate you have the same goals. Of course, even Sharon gives lip service to half of them, under the condition that they will be carried out roughly five years after the earth have plummeted into the sun...

The two obstacles to peace right now is the Israeli occupation and Bush's inability to go against someone who keeps giving him money...

[CyberGnu]

Not implying that you are giving lip service to those goals, btw. I do hope that you believe wholheartedly in them. And with a realitistic timeframe.

BTW, what is your view on Sharons insistence that negotiations can only be incremental?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Okay, youre anti-jew then do you like that better?

I am Anti-Zionist.

The fact that by definition all Zionists are Jewish means that I am anti the ideology of some Jews - those that are Zionists...

There are plenty of decent Jews in the World. There's at least 60,000 in Israel too - those that attended the recent peace march.

I also applaud the B'Tselem organisation, and people like Mordechai Vanunu (Lest we forget!)...

Sorry pal, much as you want me to be an anti-Jew racist - I am not.

I do hope you're not too disappointed...

[Caligastia]

Martin Luther king said :"Being anti-zionist is to be anti-jewish"

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ned, the problem isn't Arafat. He might be the least trustworthy man in the known universe, but it is still not his fault that Israel is occupying Palestine...

Much like DeGaulle, who by most accounts was a megalomanic bastard... Still doesn't mean he was responsible for the occupation of France.

And the only two things that CNN poll says is that Israeli propaganda is really good (which we all knew) and that there are lots of easily duped americans (not exactly news either).

I do appreciate you have the same goals. Of course, even Sharon gives lip service to half of them, under the condition that they will be carried out roughly five years after the earth have plummeted into the sun...

The two obstacles to peace right now is the Israeli occupation and Bush's inability to go against someone who keeps giving him money...

hi ,

we liberated our land , after they had took it in 48 , but the UN would not let us take it then , so when they started again in 67 , because they felt they had not enough , and we just retook ours , ....so we liberated our land , ...and as for yasser , then guy is not even born there , ... , so , he should go back from where he comes , ......

as for the rest , you really know next to nothing on the conflict , and even less on Bush , .....and yet there is so much one can read about the US government , ......even on the net

have a nice day

[Caligastia]

Moby-

http://www.yahoodi.com/

Despite its significance to the Jewish Nation, the State of Israel has failed to alleviate most of this trauma, and has not reduced the levels of antisemitism - it has simply allowed antisemites to masquerade themselves under the new banner of "anti-Zionism". We cannot expect antisemitism to disappear - Jewish existence and Jewish philosophy will always be threatening to its children: Christianity, Islam and Marxism. The trauma and insecurity, on the other hand, is within our power to diminish - should we decide to do so.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Martin Luther king said :"Being anti-zionist is to be anti-jewish"

Link.

Just because he was a respected man doesn't mean that his words should be blindly taken as gospel...

Zionism is about the conquest of land from another people, it is about religious discrimination at the expense of others.

How can you think that is fair?

The Jews lost that land over a thousand years ago - in fact it wasn't even theirs in the 1st place!

Let's give it back to the Canaanites!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Dino, I see what you mean, but I fail to find a difference between palestinian resistance and say, the bombing of Hiroshima.

Palestinian resistance consists of attacks of IDF positions and is an imminently valid response to Israeli occupation. I would maintain that there are likely more effective way to resist but that doesn't from its validity.

Palestinian terrorism consists of attacks on civilian targets and lives. I disagree most vehemently with that this is in any way a moral way to carry out a war of any sort. It has also been extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause.

[Caligastia]

Moby-
I gave you a link above

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-

http://www.yahoodi.com/

Oh look, another Jewish fanatics site...

I think the 'CNN Lies' banner says it all...

Stop making yourself silly in front of the rest of Apolyton - it's starting to get embarrassing...

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Moby-
I gave you a link above

Well forgive me if I ask you for a less biased link...

[Caligastia]

If youre getting embarrassed then maybe you should just admit that you hate jews. According to MLK, the greatest civil rights leader of all time, you are a racist.

Its MLK's letters, do you think he is a "jewish fanatic"?

[Panag]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Palestinian resistance consists of attacks of IDF positions and is an imminently valid response to Israeli occupation. I would maintain that there are likely more effective way to resist but that doesn't from its validity.

Palestinian terrorism consists of attacks on civilian targets and lives. I disagree most vehemently with that this is in any way a moral way to carry out a war of any sort. It has also been extremely detrimental to the Palestinian cause.

hi ,

ahem , and you are probably seeing this , well man , come over and see for yourself , ......go and live with the pals , lets see if they dont kill you , because they kill just about anything , they dont care that you defend them , even with lie's , they dont care who or what you are , as long as they can kill something they are happy .

as for the rest , how can you talk like that , many dont know what is going on for real , many people have never set one single foot in Israel , and yet you people talk like you have been the victims of the war going on there , .....sjee , we did not start this war , and with we "we" mean the Israeli's , including the pals who have an Israeli identity !

you people just fuel the war , like those so-called pals from egypt or irak , or iran , or whatevercountry , its because of people like that who are telling us what to do , and their involvement this war is here , not because of us , because their are people ALL over the world who enjoy hurting people , and pushing their views upon other's , sjeeeee , and then to tell that some people on the net are in real live like that to .

anyway , you want to talk "like you know it all" , come over , we shall give you a free tour , .......that is of course if you have the courage , ........
and yes some people from this site have done that , strange , they are all on the Israeli side know , now why would that be , .......

allas this is no discussion , this is a kind of talk between people who claim what its like , and what they say is the thruth , VERSUS , a group of people who live there , and go true it every single minute of the day , ...

have a nice day

[Ned]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Not implying that you are giving lip service to those goals, btw. I do hope that you believe wholheartedly in them. And with a realitistic timeframe.

BTW, what is your view on Sharons insistence that negotiations can only be incremental?

I think Oslo proved that incrementalism will probably fail. What needs to be done is to negotiate a complete peace agreement with the four quarters spelled out. This should be done sooner rather than later. To speed implementation, Europe, Russia, and the United States should guarantee a the peace treaty. If a buffer force is needed between Palestine and Israel, and I believe this will be required for around 50 years, then we three parties ought to make that commitment as well.

But I think Arafat has to go. Everytime peace is at hand, he pulls back and begins another infitada. Everytime Powell, Cheney or Bush make a serious move towards peace, Arafat unleashes another attack.

We are not victims of Israeli propaganda here in the US. We see things on US media and can draw our own conclusions. BTW, we also see and hear Arab propaganda as well.

As to Bush, many Americans think he is too soft on the Palestinians, not the other way around. I think, however, that he has cut a deal with the Saudi's to jointly work for peace.

As to the meetings taking place in Washington, I think that Bush will check with the Saudi's about Arafat. If they green light Arafat's removal, he's gone.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ned


I think Oslo proved that incrementalism will probably fail. What needs to be done is to negotiate a complete peace agreement with the four quarters spelled out. This should be done sooner rather than later. To speed implementation, Europe, Russia, and the United States should guarantee a the peace treaty. If a buffer force is needed between Palestine and Israel, and I believe this will be required for around 50 years, then we three parties ought to make that commitment as well.

But I think Arafat has to go. Everytime peace is at hand, he pulls back and begins another infitada. Everytime Powell, Cheney or Bush make a serious move towards peace, Arafat unleashes another attack.

We are not victims of Israeli propaganda here in the US. We see things on US media and can draw our own conclusions. BTW, we also see and hear Arab propaganda as well.

As to Bush, many Americans think he is too soft on the Palestinians, not the other way around. I think, however, that he has cut a deal with the Saudi's to jointly work for peace.

As to the meetings taking place in Washington, I think that Bush will check with the Saudi's about Arafat. If they green light Arafat's removal, he's gone.

hi ,

Ned , you should read the whole deal , page by page , man its a document that was meant to create this war , ...want proof , just read it !

an other BS , yes with capital letters document that was pushed on us , by people who dont even know where Tel - Aviv is on a map , and yet they claim to know it all , ...and because of those people we are where we are today

have a nice day

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
If youre getting embarrassed then maybe you should just admit that you hate jews. According to MLK, the greatest civil rights leader of all time, you are a racist.

Its MLK's letters, do you think he is a "jewish fanatic"?

I expect he was misinformed at the time, there wasn't Internet at the time for example... I expect he was appealed by the Israeli struggle against 'seemingly insurmountable odds'...

I remember I was when I was young - the underdog had triumphed against all adversity!

Then it all went horribly wrong for me around about the time of Lebanon '82, because it was about that time I started finding out about the fact that Israel wasn't such an underdog after all... I still remember the seemingly indiscriminate sheeling of Beirut and the massacres of Sabra and Chatilla as if it happened yesterday - that and the whole Falklands Campaign happened about the time I started really getting interested in World Affairs, and not just John Craven's 'Newsround...

I can see how if MLK didn't know the whole facts it might have clouded his judgement...

But this is of course hearsay - I will not be judged on the words of one man, when the UN passed a resolution that 'Zionism = Racism"...

So, what about those Canaanites?