May 28, 2002, 16:30
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#1
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Just another peon
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Fair is Fair, a question for Europe
All this talk of a unified Europe who's goal is to compete worldwide with the US and other Large Countries.
Question, to keep things fair, would Europe be willing to unite in the UN and only have one vote? A unified Europe would be about the same size and have similar economic and miliatry strength.
If you're looking for parity with the US, this would be a step in the right direction. Anything else would be hypocrisy. (please ignore the last sentence but I couldn't resist  ).
Would this change how you view the UN?
RAH
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The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
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May 28, 2002, 16:36
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#2
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Deity
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If Europe were to combine into one political entity (read: unified government), then they should have to drop down to 1 vote in the UN. But the EU is merely an economic union (NAFTA on 'roids?), so no need to give up those votes just yet.
-Arrian
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May 28, 2002, 16:37
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#3
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Emperor
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Well, it's obvious we'd do like Soviet Union and organize the UN to give a province or two a vote in the General Council.
And I don't believe that it'll come to one big United States of Europe. Nations will retain at least a modicum of independency - enough for them to call themselves nations and, well, retain seats in UN General Council.
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"Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
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May 28, 2002, 17:21
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#4
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King
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Good question. The answer is probably "not without a fight", because we're a stubborn bunch of gits when we want to be.
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May 28, 2002, 17:25
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#5
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Chieftain
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France will never give up. They will insist on calling their nation seperatly, no matter how close the EU gets
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May 28, 2002, 17:45
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#6
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Just another peon
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If Europe did agree to reduce it's vote to one.
Do you feel you would be properly represented? Or would your needs be lost among the masses of third world countries?
RAH
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The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
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May 28, 2002, 17:49
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#7
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Wow! Very good question rah... (but you can tell us... did the ferrets tell you to write this one... we won't squeal  ).
If Europe becomes fully integrated under one government, then yes, they should give up all the other votes in the UN except one. However, I'm not sure it will ever come to that. It will end up like the US's Articles of Confederation, but looser.
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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May 28, 2002, 17:51
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#8
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Emperor
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And the Arabs will have half of the votes? No thanks.
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May 28, 2002, 17:52
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#9
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Not like the Euros don't already vote with the Arabs on the ME Conflict, Eli  .
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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May 28, 2002, 17:53
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#10
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King
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Not if Europe would still have a 'veto' in the Security Counsel, as a permanent member.
(not that I think France or U.K. will ever give theirs up)
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May 28, 2002, 17:55
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#11
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Emperor
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I guess the EU should be limited to one vote, but it's all so hypothetical because I don't see the EU countries harmonizing their foreign policies and abolishing their independence completely within the next 20 years. But of course, you never know.
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May 28, 2002, 17:56
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#12
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Emperor
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The EU mandated what a sausage was, and "bangers" wern't. Theres your independent states. You've got 10 years before you're using the flag the Dutch guy designed (the bar codes).
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May 28, 2002, 17:58
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#13
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Emperor
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STFU and then GTFO!
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May 28, 2002, 17:58
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#14
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Just another peon
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Yes, I believe that Europe should have one veto in the security counsel. That would be fair and equal to that of the US.
RAH
Imran, ixnay on the erretsfay. We knocked off RAH over the weekend and have hijacked his machine.  Vito......
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The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
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May 28, 2002, 18:00
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#15
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I knew it!
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“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
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May 28, 2002, 18:01
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#16
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Just another peon
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Ok, back to the question, would europe feel represented with only one vote. Or might you get a little suspicious of the organization. (for those that didn't forsee where this was going)
RAH
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The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
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May 28, 2002, 18:02
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#17
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King
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It really doesn't matter, does it?
The UN ought to be dismantled anyway.
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"I think the real figures probably are about a million or less." - David Irving on the number of Holocaust victims.
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May 28, 2002, 18:04
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#18
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Emperor
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That kinda hit the nail on the head
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May 28, 2002, 18:15
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#19
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King
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Quote:
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Originally posted by rah
If Europe did agree to reduce it's vote to one.
Do you feel you would be properly represented? Or would your needs be lost among the masses of third world countries?
RAH
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I thought Tony Blair and Bush were lobbying to have all the third world votes reduced to one, under the title of 'The Land Where Brown People Come From' or 'Cruise Missile Testing Range'?
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May 28, 2002, 18:16
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#20
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Emperor
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I think if Europe actually declared itself to be one soverign state, they would have to accept having one vote. I don't think the UN has to continue giving seats to non-existnant countries, and I can't imagine who would support letting the Europeans keep their old votes outside of Europe. Especially since China has only 1 vote and they have way more population then Europe does.
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May 28, 2002, 22:40
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#21
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Just another peon
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Quote:
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Originally posted by red_jon
I thought Tony Blair and Bush were lobbying to have all the third world votes reduced to one, under the title of 'The Land Where Brown People Come From' or 'Cruise Missile Testing Range'?
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So much for serious arguements from the chaps on the other side of the pond.
RAH
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The OT at APOLYTON is like watching the Special Olympics. Certain people try so hard to debate despite their handicaps.
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May 28, 2002, 23:05
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#22
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by red_jon
I thought Tony Blair and Bush were lobbying to have all the third world votes reduced to one, under the title of 'The Land Where Brown People Come From' or 'Cruise Missile Testing Range'?
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SEE!!
Bush had a good reason for asking about Brazil.
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May 28, 2002, 23:06
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#23
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Emperor
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Rah...it was a great question. And very interesting to think about. kudos.
(BTW we shou;d get together for drinks. I'll be in Chi town in a couple weeks.)
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May 28, 2002, 23:09
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#24
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by SpencerH
The EU mandated what a sausage was, and "bangers" wern't. Theres your independent states. You've got 10 years before you're using the flag the Dutch guy designed (the bar codes).
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YES!!
Bar code will rule you all!!
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May 28, 2002, 23:09
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#25
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Deity
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A very interesting question. A perhaps unintended consequence of it is to highlight how the relatively rigid nature of the organization may well lead to the UN becoming more and more of an irrelevant entity as time goes by. Unless it can reform itself.
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May 28, 2002, 23:13
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#26
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King
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Why not? The USA is a regional Economic and Political Union. At least, originally. States in the USA have more power than "proviences" in other countries.
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And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worth while, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: "I served in the United States Navy!"
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May 29, 2002, 00:03
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#27
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King
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They is something very very wrong about one-state one-vote in the context of the GA. The very idea of the EU being reduced to 1 vote illustrates the problem.
I support the SC only because the US has a veto.
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May 29, 2002, 00:19
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#28
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King
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well, if it would come to that, it is very likely that the voting model would be redone altogether... Maybe more like the EU parliament or the US congress, where the number of representatives is 'sort of proportional to population'. Basically, if all the small states gang up, they have more votes than the big ones, even though their total population is lower.
I suprised myself by considering this practice unfair in the US, but defensible in the EU... Basically on the grounds that in the US the difference between the states is so little, there is no real reason to diffrentiate the votes. Whereas in Europe, we know that France would run roughshod over everyone else if only they could...
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May 29, 2002, 00:19
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#29
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King
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It is a great question, though, RAH.
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May 29, 2002, 00:20
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#30
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King
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Monk, if you are going to thank Stefu for the avatar, shouldn't you at least spell his name right?
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Gnu Ex Machina - the Gnu in the Machine
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