Bridge players game arranging thread - Page 3

TCO · June 5, 2002, 16:20

I didn't know what an end play was, when you said that, Bird. I have read about them now in the holy book. They are pretty neat! I think I've even sort of used them in a halfassed way as a declarer. What I did was throw opponents in when I hoped they could help me by being forced to lead. I don't think I ever really did this in the systemetic way that Goren discusses, though. (Where you have an idea of opponnents hand and know that he will be forced to help you.)

Basic idea of an end play is to eliminate the safe leads for an opponent and than throw him into the lead by giving hima trick (that he would have won regarless.) With no "safe" leads left, the defender is forced to lead away from his high cards (or to create a ruff in suit contracts) thus giving declarer an extra trick.

More coming....

TCO · June 5, 2002, 16:30

In this case, I'm expecting that opp will duck the heart return (if not, we can end up getting 3 h tricks.) So myn partner will win. And probably return a spade. Dummy presumably ducking, forcing me to win.

At this point, I can't really figure out the intricacies of how the end play would work and what to do to stop it. I can obviously see that leading from spades has a lot against it. And that leads from clubs and diamonds may also be bad depending on the particular case. hearts is the suit that gives me a free exit to toss the hand back at declarer. But he will presumably cash that trick (or toss me in twice.) Not sure what he will do with clubs and diamonds. Presumably he can make 3 or 4 diamonds by ruffing through me. He also might cash the a of clubs before the final throw-in to make me lead up to dummy.

Either a sp or a club might be what he uses to throw me in. I need to think it through a little more to udnerstand the end play danger and how to defend against it. Usually the way to defend against an end play is to toss a high card of yours under the opponent in such a way as to force the throw in trick to go to your partner (who has attractive leads.)

TCO · June 5, 2002, 16:35

In this case, I'm also not sure how opponent would know enough to construct an end play. How does he know that I've got all the high cards? Is this something that he has to assume, to make the contract?

TCO · June 5, 2002, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Leading a small heart back won't help, because the declarer will let it ride and see what your partner plays. If your partner cashes the honour, the Jack in dummy will be good. If he doesn't, declarer wins with the Jack (again good) and finesses you for the Queen of clubs.

The whole thing is your partner is unlikely to have an entry into his hand other than the honour in hearts, so leading a heart back will put him in a vice.

Bad defense I say.

opp will duck with the king (or queen) and your partner will play his honor. After this, the declarer's remaining honor and jack in dummy will fall on each other. Yes there is no way for your partner to get back in after that. (well maybe there is a slight chance if he has the 10 of diamonds...)

Urban Ranger · June 5, 2002, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Bird
him dummy
sp Jxxxx Ax
h Hxx J9x
d AKxx J9
c A KJ7xxx

I fully expect the declarer to play the nine of hearts from the dummy, or else I'd play the eight. That way I either end up with a cheap trick, or the declarer must lead from his hand, which is the second best thing you can hope for.

TCO · June 5, 2002, 23:22

9 of hearts already played at trick one.

TCO · June 6, 2002, 22:32

Bird, do you want me to think a little harder? I was trying to slime out without figuring out the end play. But if you think I need to try harder here, I will give it another shot...

Or you can give me a hint!

Urban Ranger · June 6, 2002, 23:50

The general rule of thumb is, if you are the LHO of the declarer, lead to the strength of the dummy. If you are the RHO, play to the weakness of the dummy. This way, you avoid giving your opponent a free finesse.

Urban Ranger · June 6, 2002, 23:52

Also, HTML does have codes for spades ♠, hearts ♥, diamonds ♦, and clubs ♣. Too bad all the suits are in black

TCO · June 7, 2002, 00:59

your diamond came out as a square (not tilted).

TCO · June 7, 2002, 01:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The general rule of thumb is, if you are the LHO of the declarer, lead to the strength of the dummy. If you are the RHO, play to the weakness of the dummy. This way, you avoid giving your opponent a free finesse.

Um....yeah. That's just the basic concept of play through strenght and to weakness. Applies to all players...not just dummy.

Urban Ranger · June 7, 2002, 23:27

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
your diamond came out as a square (not tilted).

That's a problem with the typeface (font). The symbols look ugly at my end too.

Got any interesting hands to share?

TCO · June 8, 2002, 09:03

I have an interesting topic. NO puzzle hands though.

TCO · June 8, 2002, 09:04

the other suits looked good.

Urban Ranger · June 8, 2002, 13:23

Not necesary puzzle hands. Hands and games that are memorable for one reason or another, such as a seemingly bad play is actually the only way to defeat the contract.

TCO · June 8, 2002, 16:46

I don't have any of those. I do have an interesting topic.

"What should GP work on to improve his game."

lots of stuff there to work on. But what should I prioritize.

Some things to work on.

1. Declarer play
-card combinations: (Still not always sure how to play suits that I don't have solid.)
-basic play of the hand
-Advanced plays (squeeze, end play)
2. Defense
-leads
-other defense
-signals
3. Common play issues
-counting hands
-deduction and assumption
4. bidding
-learning more about my pre-historic system
-learning 5cm

Other issue is how to balance practice versus reading/study. I have the Goren Bridge Complete book. IT has hw problems.

Urban Ranger · June 9, 2002, 05:20

Learn to make fewer mistakes

If you are relatively new, I'd suggest the Precison bidding system. It's much better than Standard American, and you don't have to unlearn SA.

Bidding seems to be the most important, because improved bidding helps with both offensive and defensive play.

Then it'd be the "common play issues." Deductions, that sort of thing.

Brush up on defense after that, then declarer play last.

Yeah, in the reverse order.

TCO · June 9, 2002, 13:18

Sounds good except for Precision. I've been playing a bit in another system. Learning a new (and rare) system not a high priority...

Bird · June 9, 2002, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Leading a small heart back won't help, because the declarer will let it ride and see what your partner plays. If your partner cashes the honour, the Jack in dummy will be good. If he doesn't, declarer wins with the Jack (again good) and finesses you for the Queen of clubs.

The whole thing is your partner is unlikely to have an entry into his hand other than the honour in hearts, so leading a heart back will put him in a vice.

Bad defense I say.

Declarer always has a heart trick and there's nothing you can do about it. The point is that there is no reason not to set up your second heart trick. Assuming declarer has the heart king (without which he has no chance), declarer will have to duck the heart to prevent the defense from getting three tricks in that suit. But don't return a low heart because you do not want to mislead partner and have him continue the suit, so return your remaining high heart. Given partner's lead, there is really no hand where that could be wrong. And if the bidding was insane and partner happens to have an entry so that he clears the heart suit, you don't care anyway.

Anyway, assume you return a high heart, declarer ducks it and partner wins the queen. You have a very good partner, and he returns a high spade, which declarer ducks to your queen. Up to you again.

Edit: by "high spade" I mean a top of nothing type card.

Bird · June 9, 2002, 15:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I fully expect the declarer to play the nine of hearts from the dummy, or else I'd play the eight. That way I either end up with a cheap trick, or the declarer must lead from his hand, which is the second best thing you can hope for.

Yes, 9 of hearts played at trick one. Also, in this layout, playing the 8 even if declarer played low would be risky. What if declarer has K10x of that suit, which is very possible? Now we've given him two tricks where he's only entitled to one.

GP, one of the problems learning how to play bridge by reading Goren is that it is more difficult to find partners who play the system and therefore understand the nuances of old-fashioned bridge. Plus, some of Goren's system is just not as good; for example, I don't think Goren used weak two bids, did he? I can't imagine playing without them and you should learn them sooner rather than later. Just stick to disciplined weak-twos at first.

TCO · June 9, 2002, 17:25

weak twos may be better in the abstract. There are more people who play strong though. at least on Pogo.

Rex Little · June 9, 2002, 20:32

Pogo may be unusual in that regard. Playing duplicate on MSN Gaming Zone, I've only run into weak-2 players.

Bird · June 9, 2002, 23:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Rex Little
Pogo may be unusual in that regard. Playing duplicate on MSN Gaming Zone, I've only run into weak-2 players.

Hehe, "may be" is an understatement. I can virtually guarantee you that you won't run into any tournament players or players on MSN or OK Bridge who play strong twos (they may not exactly always play weak twos, but they won't play strong two bids).

TCO · June 9, 2002, 23:33

duplicate attracts the strong 2ers...

Bird · June 10, 2002, 00:05

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
duplicate attracts the strong 2ers...

No. No one, and I mean no one, plays strong twos in duplicate.

TCO · June 10, 2002, 11:52

I meant the other way...sorry. Brainfart.

Meant that rubber players are less weak 2ish than duplicate.

Urban Ranger · June 10, 2002, 13:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Bird
Declarer always has a heart trick and there's nothing you can do about it. The point is that there is no reason not to set up your second heart trick.

My point was leading hearts will set up the dummy's ♥J. Also, the whole point of leading the forth of the longest suit against a no-trump contract is to set up extra tricks in that suit. Without at least a side entry it's not a good first lead. A safety lead is probably better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bird
Assuming declarer has the heart king (without which he has no chance), declarer will have to duck the heart to prevent the defense from getting three tricks in that suit. But don't return a low heart because you do not want to mislead partner and have him continue the suit, so return your remaining high heart.

I don't think he will. If you have the ♥K, you'd cash it and then lead to partner's Q, setting up the extra trick. If you don't, what's the point of leading into dummy's jack?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bird
Given partner's lead, there is really no hand where that could be wrong. And if the bidding was insane and partner happens to have an entry so that he clears the heart suit, you don't care anyway.

Hm, why did he lead from Qxxx with no entry?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bird
Anyway, assume you return a high heart, declarer ducks it and partner wins the queen. You have a very good partner, and he returns a high spade, which declarer ducks to your queen. Up to you again.

Play a heart. Declarer's king will fall on top of dummy's jack, forcing him to lead.

TCO · June 10, 2002, 15:36

UR, he led from Qxxx because that was the unbid suit.

Urban Ranger · June 11, 2002, 04:14

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
Sounds good except for Precision. I've been playing a bit in another system. Learning a new (and rare) system not a high priority...

Precision is very popular among advanced bridge players. The thing is, if you want to learn it later on, you need to unlearn SA, which can be very painful.

Urban Ranger · June 11, 2002, 04:18

Quote:

Originally posted by GP
UR, he led from Qxxx because that was the unbid suit.

My understanding was the ♥3 was the forth of the longest suit, a defense very often used against NT contracts. The idea behind it is to generate extra tricks in that suit.

The thing is then, it rarely works with only one entry in the hand.