Make City Flipping an option

[Phat_Phal]

I've been a long time civ fan, played civ 1 since its been out and I haven't stopped since. The only problem I've had with civ 3 is the city flipping. Its unrealistic, annoying, and it can spoil a perfectly good game. I'm not saying ban that new culture aspect altogether, because that would be forcing a decision on someone else. All I'm saying is stop forcing this city flipping crap on us and give us an option to turn the damn thing off.

I don't know if it would be hard to do or not, but just give us an answer because thats the only aspect thats stopping me and my civ buddies from moving onto civ3. We're still playing 40 hour ultimate civ 2 games, lol.

If it has been implemented already sorry for this thread because I haven't been following civ 3 since I lost 80 bombers and 12 modern tanks in a city flip.

[zulu9812]

I like culture flipping - it stops you building only military units, and Civ is so much more than that

[Capt Dizle]

I agree that an option to turn it off would be great.

[PhoenixPhlame73]

I find it a great addition to the game, but yes, making it an option would certainly cut down on a lot of whining in the forums......

What i don't understand is why people can't just trouble themselves to build a library or 2??? It's gotta be easier than all this complaining.........

[star mouse]

If there is an option to turn off culture flips, it should also reduce your score by 10% to 20%, because it makes it easier to conquer the world.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Phat_Phal

If it has been implemented already sorry for this thread because I haven't been following civ 3 since I lost 80 bombers and 12 modern tanks in a city flip.

\

They have toned down the cultural flipping somewhat, and an "off button" would be a good idea, though at a somewhat reduced point score.

You might want to try Civ3 again. But if you only want to blow things up, then you might not be a Civ3 player. You have to learn to play culture to play Civ3. It's actually not that difficult, but it does require your active attention.

[Solver]

Can't disagree more. Culture flipping got to remain there.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by star mouse
If there is an option to turn off culture flips, it should also reduce your score by 10% to 20%, because it makes it easier to conquer the world.

No, it should change your score to 0. That's right - ZERO. The game was built and balanced based on the various cultural aspects being included, and if they're able to be shut off, it should be just like going into cheat mode in Civ2 - you score nothing.

[Solver]

Stuie -

[Capt Dizle]

Fine, I would be more than willing to have a score of zero. I want this for PBEM anyway. No way any rational person is going to invest the six months or so necessary to PBEM and risk having the whole game ruined by a cultural flip.

[Solver]

Jim, when will you accept that as a part of the game or at least give strong arguments against it?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
No way any rational person is going to invest the six months or so necessary to PBEM and risk having the whole game ruined by a cultural flip.

Have you seriously had a "whole game ruined by a cultural flip."?? With the 1.21f patch and appropriate precautions, I don't think I've lost a single city to flipping. It's just a matter of a sufficient garrison (which seems reasonable in a newly conquered city or even in a border city) and building temples/libraries/cathedrals/etc. But if you don't feel like taking precautions....

[Jonny]

Originally posted by Stuie
Have you seriously had a "whole game ruined by a cultural flip."?? With the 1.21f patch and appropriate precautions, I don't think I've lost a single city to flipping. It's just a matter of a sufficient garrison (which seems reasonable in a newly conquered city or even in a border city) and building temples/libraries/cathedrals/etc. But if you don't feel like taking precautions....

You are correct here. With 1.21f and by taking the necessary (simple) precautions, culture flipping isn't that much of a problem. In fact, I usually gain more cities than I lose from culture flipping (if I lose any at all, that is).

However, having the option to turn it off in multiplayer mode could be a good thing, because someone could get very lucky and essentialy 'ruin' this game you have been playing for a long time.

[Cyclotron]

I agree; it's ridiculously hard to actually have a game ruined by a single flip. I've lost armies when I was careless before, but that has never significantly altered the outcome of the war (although it has delayed its end by a few turns... leading to a lot of WW). Unless you decided to stack every unit you have in one caputured enemy city on the other side of the world of your capital, it is basically impossible that flipping could ruin an entire game.

[zulu9812]

Culture flipping has to remain in the game. It's the single most important addition to the Civ series. If you want an option to turn it off, all you want is a war game and not a Civ game. Civ3 is necessarily about conquering the world: it's about building a civilization to stand the test of time. Go back to playing Age of Empires

[zulu9812]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
Unless you decided to stack every unit you have in one caputured enemy city on the other side of the world of your capital, it is basically impossible that flipping could ruin an entire game.

I can't understand this 'lost 80 bombers...' blah blah either. It's their own fault if they stuck all their eggs in one basket. And if it really did ruin their game, that's just poor generalship.

[Bautou]

Rather than an option in the startup screen, perhaps the ability to disable culture flips could be included in the editor. There are plenty of other things one can already do in the editor to make the game much easier/unbalanced than the ability to eliminate culture flips could ever hope to accomplish.

I don't see the extraordinary problem in allowing people to modify or disable this particular rule if they feel that they would enjoy the resulting game more (at least compared to the already available abilities to edit away corruption, tweak trading values, or pump up/down specific unit stats, etc.).

[Geekinstein]

Well, I think city flipping results in more bloodshed rather than less. I now raze more cities, or bombard the 25+ monsters down to 3 or 4 size (usually that have wonders). Shoot, with the workers I get from razing, it's much faster to build war roads & forts (built adjacent to the next bad-guy city I'm blowing away) thus speeding the juggernaut along...

Civ3 is turning the meek Civ2 builder in me into a slit-your-throat-and-dance-in-the-blood kind of guy...takes me hours to climb down from the combat "high" when I turn the machine off...

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Geekinstein
Well, I think city flipping results in more bloodshed rather than less. I now raze more cities, or bombard the 25+ monsters down to 3 or 4 size (usually that have wonders). Shoot, with the workers I get from razing, it's much faster to build war roads & forts (built adjacent to the next bad-guy city I'm blowing away) thus speeding the juggernaut along...

Civ3 is turning the meek Civ2 builder in me into a slit-your-throat-and-dance-in-the-blood kind of guy...takes me hours to climb down from the combat "high" when I turn the machine off...

The culture made you do it. Tell it to the warcrimes tribunal.

[simwiz2]

there should be an option to turn it off in the EDITOR - this whole idea of lose 10% of score and it's a pre-game setting is just crap.

there should also be an option in the EDITOR, if you leave city flipping on, you can choose the units : population ratio necessary to completely stop a flip, and edit other factors like culture, distance from capital, etc., and how they are weighted in the overall flip equation.

edit: stopped the ratio from turning into a

[Carver]

I like city flipping, but would be happier with a simplified formula to know how many units are needed to keep control of a captured city. Something like 1 unit for 1/2 pop pionts.

[Lucilla]

Originally posted by Carver
I like city flipping, but would be happier with a simplified formula to know how many units are needed to keep control of a captured city. Something like 1 unit for 1/2 pop pionts.

I think it just gives this extra kick if you don't know whether a city will be flipping soon or never. Especially, if I have to decide whether to start a war with my neighbour or just wait until their border cities flip peacefully.

[PhoenixPhlame73]

A simple way to stop culture flipping might be to simply say in the editor that every city improvement produces culture, jsut check a little box right? That would mean that even the most militaristic civs could easily prevent culture flipping...........or not, I'm nto sure what the other effects of this would be, amybe AIs would then produce even more culture??? Not totally sure, but its something to experiment with.......

[Geekinstein]

OK, I just did a little experiment. I had a city flip to the flipping Greeks (I'm Cleo). So I backed up a move, took all my units out and watched a move (this was to be the baseline in my "study"). Now, guess what? The city didn't flip! Ok, forward a few moves...still didn't flip.

Now, this was a 1 unit city on the very edge of Greekdom, but I think that there is still some sort of random number being pulled to run the flip...

...or am I flipping out?

[Coracle]

It is not just Flipping cities. BORDERS also flip. . . even over garrisoned fortresses and resources in a city's production radius.

Culture Flipping is profoundly unrealistic, non-historical, and screws up the game in illogical and annoying ways.

I'm expected by the braindead AI to just LEAVE a garrisoned fortress, mine, and resource because the stupid border fliped there. And if I refuse to leave civs I've never yet heard of will hate me forever.

A Roman city of '12', that had been Roman for 5,000 years, just suddenly decided to become Iroquois. Ludicrous.

A Greek city I had just conquered flipped back to Greece - that despite my gigantic army just outside and the fact that the ONLY other Greek city left (their capital, of course) was on a nearby island. I had two dozen cities.

To prevent Flipping, Firaxis gives us the preposterous option of "razing" cities of millions. A single unit can make a metropolis of millions vanish, turn the tile into grassland, and process all those corpses not even leaving a pollution tile!

In history, cities SURRENDERED to overwhelming invading armies; they did not change sides owing to this Culture bullbleep that Soren at Firaxis concocted.

Not only is is unrealistic, it is poorly implemented in game terms.

I posted long ago to turn off the Culture Flipping I want to be able to toggle OFF this nonsense.

BTW, when a city flips to me I give it back. When mine flips I go to autosave and make some changes. Anything to stop the Flipping nonsense.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Geekinstein
OK, I just did a little experiment. I had a city flip to the flipping Greeks (I'm Cleo). So I backed up a move, took all my units out and watched a move (this was to be the baseline in my "study"). Now, guess what? The city didn't flip! Ok, forward a few moves...still didn't flip.

Now, this was a 1 unit city on the very edge of Greekdom, but I think that there is still some sort of random number being pulled to run the flip...

...or am I flipping out?

No, it's not you. It's Soren from Firaxis who flipped out when he threw this crap together.

I once had a town of '5' flip with eight units in it.

Oh yes, Vanishing Garrisons when the city flips is yet another absurdity Firaxis refuses to fix.

[Phat_Phal]

Ok I understand your view but I don't think some of you are getting where I come from. I am saying that I don't want culture flipping in my games because I believe they are totally unrealistic. Thats my opinion, and I want an option in the game to solve this problem. I should be given the option if I want a war dominated game or not. It shouldn't be forced upon people.

It can make or break a game. One particular incident I attacked a civ all out and managed to capture one of its key cities. I rushed built serveral culture improvements and stacked alot of heavy defending units in there. 10 turns later it flips, to me its not logical and its not fair.

Its just an option, I'm not saying take it out all together. And I don't think reducing the score to 0 because of the option if fair either.

What I use to do in previous games was burn the entire city to the ground and build another one on top of it, JUST so I could keep my new territory.

It may or may not be realistic, but it takes away from the fun factor for me and if so many people dislike it. You could at least put an option in there giving the people/customers a choice whether to choose culture flipping or not.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by Phat_Phal
Ok I understand your view but I don't think some of you are getting where I come from. I am saying that I don't want culture flipping in my games because I believe they are totally unrealistic. Thats my opinion, and I want an option in the game to solve this problem. I should be given the option if I want a war dominated game or not. It shouldn't be forced upon people.

That's fine that you think that way. If you want to eliminate flipping, that's fine too. But I would rather have Firaxis spend time on more important things than providing a way to totally eliminate an entire facet form the game... and I don't think they'll do it anyway.

It can make or break a game. One particular incident I attacked a civ all out and managed to capture one of its key cities. I rushed built serveral culture improvements and stacked alot of heavy defending units in there. 10 turns later it flips, to me its not logical and its not fair.

It's perfectly fair. It's a game rule, and that is always fair. Culture flipping can only make or break a game if you do something strategically bad like throwing a horde of units into a city likely to flip. If every time you suffer a setback, it's "not fair," you probably shouldn't be playing games like these. Now, I understand that you don't like culture flipping... and that is entirely valid. But to say it is "not fair" is like saying it's "not fair" that that darn bishop in chess was able to take your piece diagonally... them's the rules, bud. Play with them, or don't play.

Its just an option, I'm not saying take it out all together. And I don't think reducing the score to 0 because of the option if fair either.

Very true; an option is fair (even if unlikely). But score should be reduced to 0, because removing culture flipping radically changes the game... comparative scores would be useless. It would also disable the AI, because the AI would not be aware that flipping was gone and would probably waste resources trying to prevent flips and build up culture... and without flipping, that's useless (barring the cultural victory, which you may disable anyway).

What I use to do in previous games was burn the entire city to the ground and build another one on top of it, JUST so I could keep my new territory.

My suggestion is to place your units outside of the city, not in it, and just re-take it if it flips.

It may or may not be realistic, but it takes away from the fun factor for me and if so many people dislike it.

Just because it takes away the fun factor for you does not mean many people dislike it.

You could at least put an option in there giving the people/customers a choice whether to choose culture flipping or not.

They could... but I'll reiterate, they probably won't. Culture (and thus, flipping) is a core part of Civ3, and it is unlikely Firaxis will turn around and change the nature of the beast.

[Phat_Phal]

The score doesn't have to go down to 0. In Civ 2 when you won on a scenario, on the hall of fame, next to your score, a SCENARIO passage was inserted next to the hall of fame entry showing that it wasn't a normal game. That could be applied in this case as well.

It won't eliminate culture. Culture expands your borders so it won't be totally ignored. It may be a main part of your game but in my game culture plays no major role. Its a change from the old and its a change I don't welcome. Although I have been waiting for the borders to come in for some time. I totally disagree with this peaceful culture flipping.

Obviously from the posts on these forums many people agree that culture flipping shouldn't be in the game.

By saying its not fair, I mean that its totally unrealistic that the populace of a recently overthrown city would openly revolt and make the occupying enemy armies disappear. Wouldn't they be converted if the entire city was to convert back to its original race. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

If the civ3 AI is based around culture flipping I'll smash my copy of civ 3 into tiny pieces and burn the box. If the AI is based around one of the biggest problems in this game then there is no hope. * Goes back to civ 2 *

Its eliminating a problem or making that problem optional. The point is I should have a choice. EVERYONE should have a choice. If there are bigger problems than fixing culture flipping I'd like to hear them.

[wrylachlan]

Originally posted by Phat_Phal

By saying its not fair, I mean that its totally unrealistic that the populace of a recently overthrown city would openly revolt and make the occupying enemy armies disappear. Wouldn't they be converted if the entire city was to convert back to its original race. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Why should it make sense? I know that sounds like a flip response (pun intended), but seriously, why do all the game mechanics have to make realistic sense?

I think of civ as a game, not a simulation. As such the rules are there to create complex game situations that require strategy, not create detailed simulations of reality.

I go back again to the chess analogy. A castle moving doesn't make sense, but so what? its a game.