How to Dominate with Democracy

Rust · May 30, 2002, 00:21

I find that I can build up 100 or so armor during a time of peace (everyone else should be fighting). Than advance quickly in technology, being under democracy. Until I'm able to upgrade to modern armor. After this you can buy a right of passage with the civ that closely rivals you in score. Set up 5 of these tanks at each city and blow him away in one or two turns. Build up than repeat on next civ, of course you need more tanks once they get mech infantry. However even after annhilating a civ using ROP, the other civs don't mind giveing you one for very little afterwards.

I think they should charge an outrageous amount or not even give you one at all after playing this trick the first time.

notyoueither · May 30, 2002, 00:23

What version are you playing?

Rust · May 30, 2002, 00:31

1.21f, also this is on Monarch level.

notyoueither · May 30, 2002, 00:34

Hmmm. I'd heard it was impossible to get a ROP after you screw the AI on one. I took it for granted, because I never do such things. Except for once, kind of by mistake...

Giovanni Wine · May 30, 2002, 00:37

What?
I remembered one time in which I have to declare war on a Civ with who I had a RoP due to my MPP with Greece...
Every civ on earth got so pissed at me, even Greece after a while canceled our MPP and our RoP due to me breaking the RoP with their "Aztec friend".

Are you sure you are playing 1.21f?

Saluti

Rust · May 30, 2002, 00:46

Yes, I'm sure it's 1.21f. I also think the ai was stickier about it in previous patches but I can't say for sure since I just started this cheesy tactic. Everyone is furious at me, but they continue to let me screw them over and over if I give a luxery or a couple hunderd gold first. Even the same civ will if I take a break in between fighting them off.

Giovanni Wine · May 30, 2002, 01:25

Uhmm
Seems very strange to me... anyway, I will try to see if it works with my game too...
Any way... this is a big exploit, and I don't think it shoul be allowed

Saluti

Txurce · May 30, 2002, 02:52

Why wait until modern armor to go for the win? Couldn't you use the same gambit with cavalry?

Rust · May 30, 2002, 10:01

I don't usually have the tech lead or massive production by than, but if you do, yes it would work the same. My cavalry usually end up fighting riflemen.

jshelr · May 30, 2002, 11:49

Hope you don't mind me throwing a strategy question in here.

I'm playing on Emperor with a huge map, widely spaced continents, max civs included and have just reached the stage where all the civs have met and traded.

The big elephant is the Zulu on a continent by themselves, lagging by 5 techs as I reseach steam power. I'm number two and, by fighting early and then rushing to Democracy, I have a two tech lead on everyone playing as Bab. Bab is on a continent with Greece, Russia, America -- Germany and Rome are gone.

My question is how to keep the Zulu from trading tech like mad and catching up quickly. I won't be able to outresearch them forever because they are much larger and don't have the defense burden of my crowded continent. They are really far away and I don't see a sea-based attack working until modern armour and flight provide the needed resources. By then, it may be too late.

What would you do??

Txurce · May 30, 2002, 12:35

There's no reason to assume that the Zulu will gain on your tech lead any faster than the civs on your continent. Just because they're bigger doesn't mean they're solely focused on research, the way you seemingly are. They're probably being a generalist civ like most AI civs are, building a wonder here, a ship there, and so on, and I'd bet anything that you have your science slider set higher than theirs. Kudos for gaining a two-tech lead, and good luck keeping it (you're gunning for the Theory of Evolution, right?), but I wouldn't worry about the Zulus blowing past you.

jshelr · May 30, 2002, 13:47

Thanks Txurce for the advice. Yup, Theory of Evolution is the best wonder for the buck on the block when you have a tech lead and I am focused in paranoid fashion on tech when the spaceship victory is turned on. The zulu have 8 spice and 4 ivory for sale at the moment. Should be flooded with money when population starts to explode around the globe. I've never liked the zulu's attitude toward peaceful coexistence.

Theseus · May 30, 2002, 14:41

1. Set all of your cities to building big stuff... e.g., cathedrals, universities, banks, factories. Pick the city where you want to build ToE, and pre-build with the Palace.

2. Declare war on the Zulus by finding an AI civ that will enter into a military alliance with you. Get as many otehr civs in the act as possible. Also, embargo Shaka into the stone age.

3. Mobilize.

4. Research Nationalism, if you haven;t already. As cities complete their non-military buildings, flesh out harbors and what not, and build Riflemen. You can also build Workers (use the 12 pop cities) if you need some extra to quickly railroad your entire empire.

5. Do not attack the Zulus... after about 5-10 turns, try negotiating a peace treaty... don;t worry if Shaka won;t even meet with you at first, he will eventually. Agreeing to peace will take you out of mobilization.

Think geo-politics... the goal here is to align the world against Russia... oops, I mean the Zulus... and get them to drain their resources on a war which you have no intention of actually fighting. Shut thme out of resource and tech trading, and get them focused on things military. As for the side benefit of distracting the others civs... well, they should pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

AIL · May 30, 2002, 16:09

The Zulus are relatively militaristic and stay with a minimum of buildings for a long time... For example I had them with only few cities over 6 the last game while any other civ had much bigger ones... So they probably are no so fast...
What Government do they use? When they switch to democracy I think you can forget what I said since all races try to max their pop after an excessive Worker pumping when entering Democracy...

Arrian · May 30, 2002, 16:20

Watch out about making peace 10 turns after signing alliances... you will take a big reputation hit. And with a number of AIs on his continent, poor relations aren't a good thing.

Devious plan, Theseus, but it may not be necessary. With a 2 tech lead, if he gets ToE, he should be all set to cruise to a SS launch. He's playing a scientific civ, so he won't lose ground at the Age changeovers, and in order to gain a tech lead he's gotta have a solid economy.

If you really do want to screw with Zulu man, I suggest a variant of Theseus' plan:

Create a taskforce. Enough offensive troops to take 1-2 cities, and a ton of defensive guys, plus bombard units, and a settler. Find a coastal Zulu city with luxuries you don't have. Attack, via the alliances Theseus suggested, capture city. Raze city. Rebuild city with your settler - if possible, build on a luxury tile. Rush harbor. Rush walls. Rush barracks. Rush temple/library. Defend. Hell, you may even get a leader out of it. Hang on for dear life. Hold out for 20 turns and then make peace... even if you have to pay Shaka man some gold for it. You have hurt him, wrecked relations between him and other AIs, and gained a new luxury for yourself.

-Arrian

Theseus · May 30, 2002, 16:41

Arrian's right about the rep thing... I never think about that.

If that's an issue, then plan on waiting 20 turns for peace... the plan still works, expecially if you're building factories.

Arrian, my warmonger buddy, I'm trying to give advice as a "builder!"

On the other hand, I like Arrian's plan too.

Anyway, the high notes are: get the other civs in on it, and (my new passion) mobilize. a

Theseus · May 30, 2002, 16:42

Also, don't forget to trade embargo the Zulus with as many civs as you can.

Rust · May 30, 2002, 17:11

What's so great about reputation. If you have a poor one it dosn't cost you more to make deals with the ai does it

Catt · May 30, 2002, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

3. Mobilize.

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus

Anyway, the high notes are: get the other civs in on it, and (my new passion) mobilize.

Theseus, how does mobilization help you in the scenario you describe (i.e., war for only 5 - 10 turns while cities working on high cost improvements)? Unless I'm mistaken, only cities building military units / improvements get the extra shield benefit of a mobilization.

jshelr, a somewhat riskier strategy re: the Zulus is to do nothing but concentrate on building your own science improvements and maxing your science output. They will almost certainly declare war on you (by demanding a tech as tribute which you will refuse

) or on another AI civ in the next 30 or so turns. The seemingly perpetually warring Zulus never seem to catch up in tech once they get behind, no matter the size of their empire -- but don't let them achieve a sizeable military advantage on you

.

Theseus and Arrian offer excellent advice if you choose to take action.

Catt

Catt · May 30, 2002, 18:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Rust
What's so great about reputation. If you have a poor one it dosn't cost you more to make deals with the ai does it

Rust, was about to respond as follows: "It has been said many times by experienced players that reputation does affect trading relationships and terms demanded, and my own anecdotal experience confirms it for me, but can't recall anything definitive (like a repeatable experiment posted by someone or a comment from a Firaxian)."

Realized one simple (though not definitive) experiment could be done quickly. So, I broke one of my own rules and snuck out my laptop here at work and booted Civ 3. Loaded a random saved game. Negotiated with a "Polite" civ to determine exactly how much he'd pay for my map. Didn't close the deal. Demanded a major city from him multiple times until he was "Furious." Went back to my map trade -- his price was the same!

So I'm going to post a query as to this in the general discussions thread!

Catt

LotC · May 30, 2002, 19:25

jsheir:

Pump out a buttload of privateers. In one game I was in a situation where Germany and France shared a continent and were quite behind in the tech race. With 30 or so privateers I was able to stop any ships passing between the two land masses. Of course, once the Age of Sails ends this becomes unfeasible.

Edit: I wasn't clear on whether the other civs had contact with the Zulus. My strat was for preventing contact.

jshelr · May 31, 2002, 08:14

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've saved the game at the early point discussed and will try to investigate what would have worked. What I actually did was less fun than the suggestions. I got the ToE wonder as per the suggestion and I am a builder at heart so every city got nearly everything possible. Even so, the tech lead started to evaporate, despite the fact that my GDP was #1. So, I figured if they were going to buy tech, why not buy it from me. Gold mounted to nearly 20,000. What made the outcome not much fun was that the AI civs fell to squabbling with each other, virtually ending the tech race. Arrian's right -- this is a coast to the spaceship.

dunk · May 31, 2002, 09:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Giovanni Wine
Uhmm
Seems very strange to me... anyway, I will try to see if it works with my game too...
Any way... this is a big exploit, and I don't think it shoul be allowed

Saluti

I hope they don't code this type of thing out.

Nakar Gabab · May 31, 2002, 14:17

The AI can't get mad about your screwing them over with ROP if you end the game by simultaneously attacking every AI city in one turn...