Who should be the leader of the Celts?

[monkspider]

..and yes, I said the Celts (Gauls?...shudder). To me Brennus seems like a questionable choice, he did sack rome in 390 BC if I recall, but who beyond the most-historically inclined will be famillar with him.
I think King Arthur would be fun, but Vercingetorix may actually be most approiate. Though Boadicea would be a good choice for a fun (and potentially cute ) leader.
In the end though, my vote goes to the man with the unpronouncable name, Mr. V.

[Mr. President]

I voted for Vercingetorix. Much as I love Arthur, I think it would be too hard for people to associate him with non-Christian or non-specifically-Christian Celtica.

[Deornwulf]

Lady Grania, the warrior pirate queen

[Oerdin]

I've always liked Boadicea. Plus I hope Firaxis would have enough sense to make it the Celtic civ and not the Gauls (who were just one of the many Celtic tribes).

Then again I also thought Firaxis would have been able to figure out the difference between being British and English...

[Carver]

How about the girls from the group "The Coors"? They're Celtic aren't they? I don't know about leadership skills, but I wouldn't mind looking at them in the diplo window.

[Adagio]

Where's the "The Celts shouldn't be in the game in the first place" option?

[Flandrien]

Vercingetorix was the leader of the Gauls, not the Celts.

What about king Aengus ?



Edit: maybe the Gauls were part of the Celts, I have to check my encyclopedia for that.

[monkspider]

They were Maestro, the Gauls were essentially one of the Celtic tribes.

[Jay Bee]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I've always liked Boadicea. Plus I hope Firaxis would have enough sense to make it the Celtic civ and not the Gauls (who were just one of the many Celtic tribes).

Yep, that's what I must point out that the poll misses one of the greatest Celtic leaders, Viriatus, chief of the Lusitanians.

Then again I also thought Firaxis would have been able to figure out the difference between being British and English...

He he, true. To make them look a bit worse they also don't seem to grasp the difference between being Castilian and Spanish. Queen Isabella was as Spanish as Elizabeth I was British.

(EDIT: forgot the 'don't' in the last sentence )

[Spiffor]

Actually, the Gauls weren't one tribe, but the bunch of Celtic tribes who lived on the current French + Belgian territory. They didn't identify themselves as Gauls, Romans did.
Rome conquered Gaul pretty easily because of the tribe rivalries, and had difficulties only when Vercingetorix united these tribes to fight the conqueror. No doubt the alliance would have broken if Vercingetorix had won.

[Oerdin]

I'm reposting some old info about the Celts that I had written several months ago on the Civ3:civilizations forum. Hopefully it will help add to everyones understanding of the Celts; to read the whole thread go to http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=29913
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Historical Significance: A widely spread cultural group that dominated Europe from 500B.C. to 200A.D.; Celtic artifacts have been found in Asia Minor and as far away as the Tarim basin, Xinjiang provience, China.

Description:
CELTS:- An ancient people who dominated much of Western , Central , Eastern Europe and Asia Minor in the 1st millennium bc, giving their language, customs, and religion to the other peoples of that area.
History:- The earliest found archaeological evidence associated with the Celts places them in what is now France and western Germany in the late Bronze Age around 1200 bc. In the early Iron Age, they are associated with the Halstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) named for an archaeological site in Upper Austria. They probably began to settle in the British Isles during this period. Between the 5th and 1st centuries bc , their influence extended from what is now Spain , the islands of the British Isles to the shores of the Black Sea , from the Ukraine to Turkey. This huge land/cultural region ( never an 'Empire') encompassing the areas mentioned influenced much of the continent of Europe and was greater in size then modern European Russia. Despite the shared religion/language and culture this large area was never politically united , finding only brief periods of unity when threatened by common foes. The later Iron Age phase of Celtic Culture is called La Tene, after a site in Switzerland and dates from the previously mentioned 5th to 1st centuries bc. Evidence from this period suggests that the Celts were the first peoples of Europe to actively use and work with iron. The word Celt is derived from Keltoi, the name given to these people by Herodotus and other Greek writers. To the Romans, the Continental Celts were known as Galli, or Gauls; those in Britain were called Britanni. In the 4th century bc the Celts invaded the Greco-Roman world, conquering northern Italy and sacking Rome, whilst also conquering Macedonia and Thessaly. They plundered Rome in 390, sacked Delphi in 279, and penetrated Asia Minor, where they were known as Galatians. The "Cisalpine Gauls" of northern Italy were conquered by the Romans in the 2nd century bc .Transalpine Gaul (modern France and the Rhineland) was subdued by Julius Caesar in the 1st century bc. and most of Britain came under Roman rule in the 1st century ad. In the same period. the Celts of central Europe being fragmented came under the domination by the Germanic peoples. In medieval and modern times the Celtic tradition and languages survived in Brittany ( Western France), Cornwall, Galicia ( North Western Spain) , Galatia ( Central Turkey), Wales, the Scottish Highlands, Isle of Man and Ireland, and to a lesser extent in the Norse/Celtic culture of Iceland.

Way of Life:- The various Celtic tribes were bound together by common speech, customs, and religion, rather than by any well defined central governments. There government was through the use of a feudal system with each tribe being headed by a king/chief and was divided by class into Druids (priests), warrior nobles, and commoners/freemen and slaves . Politically there was a great degree of democracy within the society with both men and women being treated equally and all important decisions being made at tribal gatherings in which women had an equal voice. Rulers were subject to removal at these gathering if found unsatisfactory or incompetent and succession was not necessarily hereditary. The absence of any large scale political unity amongst the tribes contributed substantially to the extinction of their way of life, making them vulnerable to their enemies. Their economy was pastoral and agricultural and they had no real urban life however trade played a large part in there economy . The nobles fought on foot with swords and spears and were fond of feasting and drinking. Celtic mythology, which included earth gods, various woodland spirits, and sun deities, was particularly rich in elfin demons and tutelaries, beings that still pervade the lore of peoples of Celtic ancestry.
Celtic Christianity:- The Christian faith was well established in Celtic Britain by the 4th century ad, but in the 5th century the Saxons and other Germanic peoples invaded the country, driving most of the Celtic Christians into Wales and Cornwall. At the same time. St. Patrick and other British missionaries founded a new church in Ireland, which then became the centre of Celtic Christianity. The Irish church developed a distinctive organization in which bishops were subordinate to the abbots of monasteries .The Irish monks, devoted to learning as well as religion, did much to preserve a knowledge of ancient Roman literature in early medieval Europe. Between the late 6th and the early 8th centuries, Irish missionaries were active in Christianizing the Germanic peoples that had conquered the Western Roman Empire, and they founded numerous monasteries in present-day France, Germany, Switzerland , and Italy. Celtic Christianity in Ireland was weakened by the Viking invasions of the 9th and 10th centuries, and by the 12th century its characteristic institutions, which were incompatible with those of the dominant Roman church, had largely disappeared from Europe.

Art:- Celtic art is considered the first great contribution to European art made by non Mediterranean peoples. Its roots go back to the artisans of the Urnfield culture and the Hallstatt culture (8th-6th cent. bc) at the beginning of the Iron Age. It flowered in the period of the La Tene culture. Although Celtic art was influenced by ancient Persian, Greek, Etruscan, and Roman art and by that of the nomads of the Eurasian steppes it developed distinctive characteristics. These are evident in its major artefacts-weapons, vessels, and jewelry in bronze, gold, electrum and occasionally silver. Many of these objects were made for chieftains in southern Germany and France and were recovered from their tombs. The Celtic style is marked by a preference for stylised plant motifs, usually of Greek origin, and fantastic animals, derived from the Scythians and other steppe peoples; however the human figure tended to play a secondary role. Other favourite motifs are elliptical curves and opposing curves. spirals, and chevrons, also derived from steppe art. These elements were combined in dynamic yet balanced, intricate geometrical patterns carried out in relief engraving, or red, yellow, blue, and green champleve enamel on shields, swords, sheaths, helmets, bowls, and jewelry. They also appeared on painted pottery cinerary urns, food vessels, incense bowls, and drinking cups. Examples of Celtic art include torcs, or neck rings, with the two open ends ornamented with animal heads, the silver repousse Cundestorp cauldron (c. 400 bc . National Museum, Copenhagen), a bronze lozenge-shaped shield with circular medallions and small enamel circles (1st cent. bc - 1st cent. ad ), and a bronze mirror with enamelled decoration (1st cent. bc) (both British Museum. London). Also surviving are roughly carved stone monuments and wooden objects. During the period of Roman domination of Western Europe in and after the 1st century bc the art of Celtic peoples on the Continent gradually lost its distinctive style. The Celts of Ireland continued to work with traditional motifs but as Christianity took hold, they combined them with Christian motifs and employed their skills in the service of the church.

Celts Today:- Today the people who call themselves Celts or still strongly identify with there celtic history can be found in the following areas:- Brittany France, Cornwall, Galicia Spain, Galatia Turkey, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales. All these areas have strong Celtic elements to there culture with some of them still speaking Celtic Languages whilst others though not speaking a Celtic language have strong Celtic cultural rootes. The modern Celts have a varied and rich history and have influenced many of the worlds current great nations with their pioneering spirit and love of adventure helping to found some of the worlds most progressive and greatest nations.

[Oerdin]

Here's a map of the areas where Celts were the dominant social group at 400 B.C.

[Spiffor]

Thanks Oerdin for the info !
Btw, as most leaders had an impact on the unity of their country (Joan of Arc, Bismarck, Lincoln, Ghengis etc.), I think Vercingetorix should be the guy, as the only valid attempt to unite Celt tribes, at least in Gaul. If they indeed put Brennus in, I'm sure to rename him Vercingetorix as soon as possible.

[Oerdin]

I agree Vercingetrix would probably be the best choice but I still like the idea of having a female in charge. After all Celts weren't a male dominated society, unlike, the rest of the world. Women could become rulers, high priestesses, own property, and speak at the war councils. What other people treated women with such equality?

[Oerdin]

Here's a new question. What should the Celt's CSAs and UU be? We know the UU will be a swordsman but what will make it special?

Since Celts were the first people in Europe to work with Iron I suggest we let the Celts build their unique swordsmen without having an Iron resource. Since Celtic druids & priests played such a pivitial role in their society I suggest they should be religious & since we also know that the Celts started the first large scale trade networks in Europe their other CSA should be commercial. What do you guys think?

[Spiffor]

Religious : definitely, as the Druids had an immense religious and political power, and were the scientific nomeklatura of the Celts.
Don't know for the second trait though. Sure, they had roads, but maybe that qualifies them for being "industrious" ? Also, they lived in villages, or small towns at most (nothing compared to Rome or Athens), so "expansionist" could fit, as they needed much space.

[Kingof the Apes]

Militant, maybe? You always hear about the 'feirce Celtic warriors'.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Here's a map of the areas where Celts were the dominant social group at 400 B.C.

Your map are ridiculeus! Celts live almost all steppes in Northern Pont (Ukraine) and Northern Caucasus?! Where Scyths, Sarmats, and others? It's kind of dream. Back to science, please!

Of course, if Gauls in Game then ruler should be Vercingetorix.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Imp. Montezuma
Your map are ridiculeus! Celts live almost all steppes in Northern Pont (Ukraine) and Northern Caucasus?! Where Scyths, Sarmats, and others? It's kind of dream. Back to science, please!

Of course, if Gauls in Game then ruler should be Vercingetorix.

If you note it shows the areas where Celts were the largest group; this doesn't mean they were the only group. Look around the web and you will find many similiar maps. Plus if you have the National Geographic CD-Rom you can also find maps & stories about the Celts that colaborate...

Also the Caucasuses are to the south and east of where the eastern edge of Celtic Civilization. The map doesn't show Celtic people living in the Caucasuses.

[Imp. Montezuma]

http://www.users.bigpond.com/troy-kim/celts.html

[Imp. Montezuma]

"Vercingetorix". Statue in Alesia.

[Thrawn05]

Since my choice would never be accepted, I chosed other. I don't care who gets it... because I'm going to change it to St. Patrick as soon as I get PtW.

[Oerdin]

Montezuma: I found my map on the internet just like you did and it seems they are 90% the same. So there is only 10% disagreement.

Everyone: I found an article on National Geographics website that says the holiday of Holloween was originally a Celtic holiday. To read the whole article. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ph...ogh/index.html

Here is a sample: Originally celebrated by Celtic people over 2,000 years ago, Halloween was a time that marked the end of their calendar year, the end of the harvest, and the coming of winter. The Celts began the celebration on the night of October 31 with masked parades, bonfires, and religious rituals.

[Oerdin]

Here's some info about Ogham the unique alphabet developed by the Celts. For more info follow the link http://www.crystalinks.com/celts.html
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The ancient Celts had a form of writing called ogham (pronounced OH-yam). It was the writing of Druids and Bards. Ogham is also called 'Tree Alphabet' because each letter corresponds to a tree and an associated meaning. The letters were, in fact, engraved onto sticks as well as larger standing stones.

In keeping with Druidic concepts, each of the Ogham's twenty letters bears the name of a tree. A-Ailim (Elm), B-Bithe (Birch), C-Coll (Hazel), for example. The Celts had an oral tradition so it was not used to write stories or history as these were memorized.

The Ogham alphabet contains twenty letters and is read from the bottom up. The letters are constructed using a combination of lines placed adjacent to or crossing a midline. An individual letter may contain from one to five vertical or angled strokes. Vowels were sometimes described as a combination of dots. The midline was, most often, the edge of the object on which the inscription was carved.

Ogham was named after the Celtic god of literature, Ogma. It was used on the edges of burial stones and boundary markers. They usually held the name of a person. Examples exist to this day.

It was also used on rods or strips of wood that were fastened together at one end. These wands were opened and closed to present stories or poems.

Since these wands were made of wood, none survive today. Only the messages on stone survived.

The wooden sticks with the Ogham marking were used for divination similar to the way Runes were used by Norse peoples. Only the Druids and Bards understood the system and could have great influences on their people when they demonstrated its power.

There are 369 verified examples of Ogham writing surviving today. These exist in the form of standing stones concentrated in Ireland, but scattered across Scotland, the Isle of Man, South Wales, Devonshire, and as far afield as Silchester (the ancient Roman city of Calleva Attrebatum).

Similiar markings have been found on standing stones in Spain and Portugal. The markings in Spain are believed to be much older than the ones in Ireland, perhaps dating from 800 BC. It is from this area of the Iberian Peninsula that the Celts who colonized the British Isles may have come.

Ogam can still be seen inscribed on hundreds of large and small stones, on the walls of some caves, but also on bone, ivory, bronze and silver objects. The Ogam script was especially well adapted for use on sticks. Sticks are part of the Basque word for "alphabet": agaka, agglutinated from aga-aka, aga (stick or pole) and akats (notch). The meaning of the word agaka therefore isn't so much "alphabet" as "writing", a stick with Ogam notches conveying a message. The name Ogam likely comes from oga-ama, ogasun (property, wealth) ama (Priestess, mother) property of the Priestess, which indicates that the script was originally designed for use by the clergy of the pre-Christian religion.

Ogam was adopted and further developed by the first monks in Ireland. Our earliest information indicates that they were not sure as to where Ogam came from. According to the "Auraicept" the origin of Irish and Ogam must be sought in the Near East: "In Dacia it was invented, though others say it was in the Plain of Shinar" (line 1105-06). A "made in Ireland" version is recorded in "In Lebor Ogaim" in which the inventor is "Ogma mac Elathan who is said to have been skilled in speech and poetry and to have created the system as proof of his intellectual ability and with the intention that it should be the preserve of the learned, to the exclusion of rustics and fools" ( McManus 8.4).

The script was used by the monks as a monument script between 450 and 800 A.D. and they used it for literary purposes between 650 and 900 A.D. Every time the script was inscribed in stone it must have been used thousands of times on sticks, for which medium the script was obviously designed. Over 500 Ogam inscriptions are known from Ireland (collected by R.A.S. Macalister), some 40 from Scotland ( A. Jackson) and a growing number from the east coast of North America.

The fact that not a single one has been successfully translated is not so much the fault of the monks who wrote the texts, as of our linguists, all of whom assumed that the language of the script was Gaelic. However, this assumption appears to be without foundation, because the syntax of the Gaelic language in no way lends itself to be written in traditional Ogam.

[Oerdin]

Here is a gif file illistraiting Ogham

[Imp. Montezuma]

Oerdin, what about using Oghama by Pict tribes befoe Celts?
And misterious Slavic 'cherty i rezy' scratching-and-cutting?

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Imp. Montezuma
Oerdin, what about using Oghama by Pict tribes befoe Celts?
And misterious Slavic 'cherty i rezy' scratching-and-cutting?

I haven't seen or heard any reputable Universities publish anything about Picts using Ogham. However, I'd be interested in hearing about it if you could tell me.
The Picts of Scotland are a very poorly understood group of people. Scientists actually know very little about them. There are three popular theories about the origins of the Picts: 1) They were a Celt group; this is reasoned because everyone else around them were Celts. 2) They were a nonindo-European group related to Basques; what little we know about Picts does show significant differences from near by Celtic tribes. Therefor, proponents of this theory believe Picts were remients of the pre-indo-European population (like Basques are). 3)Picts are related to Scathians; this is the least likely and is based upon the writtings of several Romans who said Picts commonly tatooed their bodies. Since Scathians also tatooed themselves maybe the two groups are related.
Of the three theories most scientists who study the Picts go with either #1 or #2. The truth is we have to little archilogical evidience to prove either one.

[Oerdin]

What CSAs and UU do you folks think the Celts should have?

[Apocalypse]

I like Vercingetorix. I read some Latin stuff Ceasar wrote about him. Seems like a stand up kinda guy. There is also a robot named after him. On top of all that, Vercingetorix is a badass name.

[History Guy]

What's so unpronouncable about Vercingetorix?

Actually, old Vercing' would be a good choice, I think. Boudicca also, though she's a great leader for England in Civ3. Of course, Genghis and Kublai are great Chinese leaders as well.

As for both maps, they neglect that the Celts settled Denmark.