Official Military Debate Thread - Page 2

H Tower · May 31, 2002, 17:28

i just posted some of the maps that you posted in the 1640map thread. if you look closely at the "map" you'll notice that its a little off in the middle, that's the boarder between the two maps. i also didn't attach the pictures, just made a link to pictures in the other thread

Xenozod · May 31, 2002, 19:26

I vote for the Iron Clad plan. Seems the safest and most efficient.

atawa · May 31, 2002, 21:26

So do I, with clads we can take most of Egypt and the US out.

Question to the cityplanner: why is Heliopolis producing 7 shields when only 5 are needed for the musketeer?

cavebear · May 31, 2002, 22:12

Quote:

Originally posted by atawa
So do I, with clads we can take most of Egypt and the US out.

Question to the cityplanner: why is Heliopolis producing 7 shields when only 5 are needed for the musketeer?

Because there is no other place for a Worker that is more useful and does not lose food or trade. Sorry, it's the old City-Planner habit in me from April...

Gen. Hancock · May 31, 2002, 22:28

My Vote is for Bear's suggestion, it sounds very reasonable. I hate to sound like I just keep supporting my party's leader, but you do have to give hime credit. He does have an incredible plan. And also, before he joined I had suggested, not exact, but simmilar plans of action for our current military situation.

H Tower · June 1, 2002, 00:39

i updated the votes for plans, its not official but i thought i would keep track anyways. the post is at the top of page two for all to look at and ponder the situation along with a few maps that might help people decide

EDIT: I also added support details for each plan proposed and a new plan that was proposed earlier and that I had missed...

Space05us · June 1, 2002, 03:43

the pillaging plan wouldn't really work. Sure you can destroy all thier city improvements (after losing most of our diplomats) and terrain improvements, but then you have to set troops there for a time to make sure the situation is always in our favor. and the bribing them thing... that close to thier capital would be far more expensive than letting a few units get killed to take a city (at a much faster speed might I mention). Besides that when we take the city we'll have to rebuild everything that we destroyed. I support any military plan that would deal with the problem swiftly and as cheaply as possible.

BTW I would like to make a change to my plan; instead of sending crusaders to test the water we can send the diplomats to get definate info on the cities before we attack them. if we do this I suggest making screenshots of the enemy cities available to all.

hope that makes sense (I'm almost asleep now)

H Tower · June 1, 2002, 03:48

i'll edit your proposed plan accordingly. BTW, i'm not out to steal anyones job, but since MWIA is gone for a few days (see the begining of this thread) i decided to help him out a little by laying all the information for the inevitable poll that will come upon his return

Space05us · June 1, 2002, 03:57

good idea, *Suck Up*

actually that could be helpful for him

H Tower · June 1, 2002, 03:59

i have a question for the president, if ironclads were to be ready now and based in the home islands, about how many turns would it take for them to arrive outside of thebes and philadelphia? i believe that it could have an effect upon the way the way citizens of our glorius communist utopia would vote upon the matter.

H Tower · June 1, 2002, 04:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Space05us
good idea, *Suck Up*

actually that could be helpful for him

considering i had to go looking through three different threads to find maps, plans, support for plans etc, it would save him a lot of time pulling together information.

Space05us · June 1, 2002, 04:02

I know, I'm sure he'll appreciate it too

good job

Space05us · June 1, 2002, 04:05

H Tower, you should join the AAAC. We could use a dedicated worker such as yourself

. and who knows maybe by next election time you'll get your shot at running the show!

atawa · June 1, 2002, 07:19

Quote:

Originally posted by cavebear

Because there is no other place for a Worker that is more useful and does not lose food or trade. Sorry, it's the old City-Planner habit in me from April...

Put both workers that are now on the plains onto the water, you loose 2 food for 1 turn, but gain 3 extra trade for that same turn.
And you dont waste the 2 shields.

Heliopolis is a long way from groing to size 5 anyway but we can use all the trade we can get to rush to steam engine.

cavebear · June 1, 2002, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by H Tower
i have a question for the president, if ironclads were to be ready now and based in the home islands, about how many turns would it take for them to arrive outside of thebes and philadelphia? i believe that it could have an effect upon the way the way citizens of our glorius communist utopia would vote upon the matter.

From Apolyton, it would take an Ironclad 5 turns to attack Thebes and 3 turns to attack Philadelphia.

Kuciwalker · June 1, 2002, 17:13

I vote for using our brilliant scientists to develop ironclads to furthur the dialectic and destroy the borgouis capitalist oppressors of the American and Egyptian proletariat.

H Tower · June 1, 2002, 17:32

based upon the results of the science thread steam engine(ironclads) is going to be available to us before metalluragy(cannons) so it would seem that we will be following the ironclad plan whenever the next turn is played

Kuciwalker · June 1, 2002, 23:52

It's a moot point... we're already building the ironclads.

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 03:29

Well, perhaps it's about time I stuck my oar in. Perhaps my voice will count for a little...

THANK YOU H Tower!!!! Your collation of info above is very much appreciated and oh so useful.

I can't imagine how long all that took you. If you are hoping to be Minister of War next term this sure is a helluva way to show your interest...

Now to business.
Our situation in America/Egypt.

Our forces:

10 Crusaders - 6 in Heliopolis (3 vet)
1 in Shade
3 outside Heliopolis

6 Musketeers - 2 in Heliopolis
1 in Shade
3 outside Heliopolis

I will include screenshots below.

At the moment our units outside Heliopolis prevent any land-based force attacking that city via a complete occupation of the land to Heliopolis' east. On observation of the map, you can see that (excepting caravans/diplomats from our enemies), a unit or two placed on the hills immediately E of heliopolis would prevent all land units reaching us (, provided there are defenders in Heliopolis itself.

I propose that the (fortified) Musketeer and Crusader should be enough to continue this forward defense policy, provided we have a couple of Crusaders in Heliopolis as backups. This frees up 2 musketeers (currently outside Helio) and up to 6 Crusaders.

In the many options presented here, I believe the best is to await the arrival of the Ironclads. These units will have 6/6/7 on completion - normally 4/4/4, but the Lighthouse makes all ships veteran upon completion, and adds a movement pt, also Magellan's gives us an extra 2 moves. We will see no improvement in ships until we get Cruisers - with Steel, a minimum of 7 techs away. Destroyers have the same base stats as Ironclads, just with an extra 2 moves (1 move as Magnetism is needed, which cancels Lighthouse!), thus SuperClads are way ahead of their time!

'Clad Attack Option

Attacking a walled city such as Philadelphia or Thebes will show the following stats:

Attack: PDRA (Peoples' Democratic Republic of Apolytonia) Ironclad - attack 6

Defense: USS/Egypt Pikemen/Phalanx defense 2(+2 if vet and fortified) No terrain effects (plains/grassland)

6 vs 4 sounds good, and this is worst case - it may be that their defenders are not veteran; in that case it's 6 vs 3!

We need not fear attack on our 'Clads - the Americans are still going for Invention and Egypt doesn't have it either.

We would then have to quickly move in our Crusaders to take the city and fortify it with the extra Musketeers.

Crusader Attack Option

To contrast, if we attack with our Crusaders, the best we can hope for is:

Attack: PDRA Crusader (veteran) - attack 7

Defense: USS/Egypt Phalanx (fortified, city walls) - defense 7
8 if veteran
9 if Pikeman
10 if vet Pikeman No terrain effects (plains/grassland)

7 versus 7-10... NOT good.

I have read that city walls bonus means fortify bonus doesn't count. Is this true? If so, drop all of the above defense values by 1 - 7 attack vs 6-9 defence, still not too great.

Diplomat Attack Option

It has been suggested that we either use diplos to investigate cities' defenses before attacking or we use lots of diplos to destroy the walls first. This will take much time, especially since our 4 diplomats are all nearer the Roman portion of our State holdings (far W of Apolytonia). I think we should aim to conclude this war ASAP, so we can move on to worthier challenges (military or internal). Unless it can be justified otherwise (and please post if you think I've missed something!), the 'Clad option is the quickest, cheapest and surest method! And the leftover 'Clads can be used to start our maritime domination!

Cavalry/Cannon Attack Option

We could wait for Metallurgy and Cannons, and Tactics +Cavalry. Not only does this involve a long wait, but Cannons/Cavalry would provide an attack of 8-12 (if vet) versus 7-10 defense. This is if the two nations haven't discovered Gunpowder by then - they are close to it - which would make things much more difficult at 10-12 defense. Remember the Americans have the GL, thus they could get random techs at any time!

The Peace or Containment Option

Finally, there is staying with what we have and hoping like hell our enemies suddenly like us or will be able to be contained. This likely involves some musketeers being fortified OUTSIDE heliopolis and thus Democracy and Republican governments would be more problematic until we get Fortresses in place.

In conclusion then, my official recommendation is for awaiting those Superclads, and then attacking with them.

I will nevertheless poll on all options mentioned in H Tower's excellent posts.

The poll I will make will include the choice between broad plans:
1. Superclads attack
2. Crusaders attack
3. Diplomat attack (either await diplos to investigate city defenses or use them to destroy every improvement until we get the Walls)
4. Wait for Cannons/Cavalry
5. Stay defending our possessions and hope the AI likes us.

The diplomat option includes the pillaging plan of Bear, Big Cash and Gen. Hancock - if this option wins, I will poll again on how best to use the diplos.

Minister of WAR, not peace.
MrWIA.

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 03:57

The current positioning of our troops.

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 03:59

The arrow show the hills where troops would prevent an approach on Heliopolis.

Space05us · June 2, 2002, 06:28

I know this is a wee bit off the subject but I say take Philly first it's soo close that I can taste the blood in the air...*cough* and the sonner we get rid of it the better

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 06:36

Yes, I guess a new debate is in order - which city do we attack first (that is, if you think we SHOULD attack somewhere

).

Philadelphia - drags the Americans into the war and widens our front line dangerously, but it is closer to reach with the Superclads and Crusaders/Musketeers.

Thebes - eliminates the Egyptians' capital and makes enslav- I mean the freedom of the Egyptian people a very real and easy to accomplish feat (Hydey's highly trained diplomats can convince the city authorities to join our efficient workers' paradise). The Pyramids and Marco Polo's would be ours. Takes longer for the 'Clads to reach (1-2 extra turns) and is a little more out of the way than Philadelphia.

Personally Thebes is my favoured option. We can leave the majority of the forces defending the approaches to Heliopolis, as we only need the 'Clads plus one or two land units for Thebes. Once we have Thebes we are in a much better position in this land. We are in a strong position now, and should be able to hold off any offensive until the 'Clads arrive. With Egypt's back broken, whatever we will do in the future here will be much easier.

Minister of WAR, not peace.
MrWIA.

Space05us · June 2, 2002, 06:40

hmmm.... my mistake I thoght we were already at war with America...

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 06:45

We are technically, it's just that there has been no significant conflict with them yet.

Minister of WAR, not peace.
MrWIA.

Space05us · June 2, 2002, 07:36

well then we should finish it before it starts!

btw, thanks!

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 07:38

/me adopts Connery accent

I aim to please.

Minister of WAR, not peace.
MrWIA.

atawa · June 2, 2002, 07:59

Not being at war yet might give us the opportunity to do a surprise assoult and destroy their civ in a single turn.

Better to kill Thebes first, send the first 1/2 clads there, that should be enough to waeken them enough offer peace.

In the meantime the rest of the army should prepare for a blitzkrieg assoult on the US.

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 08:04

All American cities we can see (Philadelphia, Washington, and prob'ly New York too, although we haven't seen that city yet, we basically know where it SHOULD be) are walled too, so we face the same problem as attacking Egypt with land troops. We need the 'Clads for both.

Clap clap, clap clap clap. Clapclapclapclap, Ironclads! (OK so it doesn't quite work, but I'm watching delayed coverage of England vs Sweden

).

Have you voted in the poll yet atawa?

Minister of WAR, not peace.
MrWIA.

MrWhereItsAt · June 2, 2002, 08:10

The red arrow shows suspected locati0on of New York (Americans' second city).

Note ALL Egyptian and American cities visible have walls.