Thread Tools
Old November 22, 2000, 10:18   #31
Snapcase's Temporary DL
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hey, Ultrasonix quoted me! I'm so proud!
 
Old November 22, 2000, 12:48   #32
Atahualpa
Spanish CiversCivilization III PBEMPtWDG2 Latin Lovers
Emperor
 
Atahualpa's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: voice of reason
Posts: 4,092
quote:

1) Would you rather see an in-game editor, or an external editor (or combination of both), and why? Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?


Standard Windows based! Games are designed for gaming. Windows is designed for working (plus other purposes). Besides I dont like to actually have to start a game to draw a map. Map editing has to be that you open the program and whoopy its there. Also its much more difficult with an ingame editor to do programm switching (alt-tab). With external editors you could do multitasking faster and more convient. Another thing is that you can use your Windows Resolution (which is in most cases higher or at least equal to the game res).

quote:

2) What types of functionality are you interested in seeing in a scenario / map editor? Be specific, e.g., "Cut and paste functions for map creation", "Drag and drop terrain tile placement" vs "Paintbrush-style interface", etc.


Definately Cut and Paste! And I prefer a Paintbrush style. Though it would be nice (as in CtP2) when you could draw a colored bmp and have a utitility that converts this to a Civ3 Map!
Maybe there would also be an option where you could generate a random island or continent with a specific dimension and certain amounts of wood, jungle,.... . So that you concentrate on creating 2 or 3 continents and then put some small random islands around them.

quote:

3) If possible, for each specific suggestion, reference existing game editors that do this well. So, for example, if you think the StarCraft Editor's handling of triggered events is exactly what you're looking for, mention that.


HOMM3 has a pretty good map editor (though it is drag and drop and that is pretty hard for larg maps). Of course trigger editors such as starcraft are a must have! Also it would be cool if you could add some kind of randomness to scenarios. So that they dont play the same.
In HOMM3 for example you can set the monsters you place to random (complete random or level-based (strength) random). This makes it different for everytime you play!

quote:

4) Try to qualify your suggestions as either a "must-have" function, a "would be nice" function, or a "in my dreams" function. We need to know what the most important features are to you, so that we can direct our efforts towards the features that most of you really think you'll need.


Must-have:
* trigger editor + some sort of SLIC (trigger editor should be a front-end to some basic SLIC functions)
* documentation/examples/howtos!!!!!!!!!
Would be nice:
* statistics editor that provide a front-end to those text files!
* debugger or some sort of compiler that checks the scenario on typos and inconsitencies
In my dreams:
* SDK

Ata
Atahualpa is offline  
Old November 22, 2000, 14:52   #33
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
Four nice map-editor features:

1/ Any computer-generated map has a uniform pattern of evenly distributed special resource spots. Thats perfectly OK then using computer-generated maps.

However, then doing handedited maps in the map-editor, one could start standard patterns, but then the creator should have the ability to manually add, (or detract) indevidual special resource-spots here and there, where ever he chooses to do so.
He could combine 3-4 goldmine-mountains packed together, but with very sparse food-support. What to do? Well, if the scenario is played in ancient times you cant terraform that much. Constant food-caravans ala cold war Berlin blockade, perhaps? Challenging problem-solving needed.

2/ Then i paintbrush land-tiles on a default ocean-maps, i would like to have an optional small screen with updated global land/ocean percentage ratio to look at. This way its easier to create 30/70 earthlike maps.
Also, a second global vs. continent-only ratio on the same screen would be nice. Added to that, some percentage ratio statistics on EuroAsia, Africa, North-america, South-america, Australia to compare with.

Above isnt only for recreating our earth-map - also nice for earth-like map-editing, with same-as-earth ratios, but with different shapes and placements.

3/ Moving around continental-sized chunks of landareas is of course a must. Anything that the CTP-2 map-editor can do in this respect, the upcomming Civ-3 map-editor must also be capable of.

4/ Time-saving shortcuts like "Replace [choose terrain-tile] with [choose terrain-tile] globally all over the map", with a click of a button.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 22, 2000).]
Ralf is offline  
Old November 22, 2000, 22:07   #34
Shadowstrike
Emperor
 
Shadowstrike's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The Glorious Land of Canada
Posts: 3,234
Personally, I would prefer to see a combination of in-game and out of game editing. It would be preferable if things could be done either way, and that the in-game editors be more user friendly, while the out of game ones should be more efficient. For example, if we are to have a sprite editor, make it so that we can access it while in the in-game scenario editor, as well as a out of game version, that would be equally functional.

As far as the editor itself goes, the more options that we can tinker with, the happier a lot of us will be. Each editor should serve a point, so that you would know exactly where to go to get something done. Maybe I could list some of the ideas for editors floating in my mind:
[*]Technology Tree Editor

The function of this editor should obvious. There should be room for as many advances as the desginer wants (set the limit really high, like 262,144, which is 2 to the 18th power). The screen should have a large "drawing board" in the center where the current state of the tech tree is located. It should start off as a blank slate, and the designer could create a new tech and place it on the "board". It would zoom in all directions, and it should allow you to link two techs by clicking first on the prerequsite and then on the target tech. Panels at the side would allow for editing properties of the tech (special abilities, what it allows, etc.) There should also be the option of printing off the tree an making it a readable picture file that can be put on the Internet. A must-have for easy editing of the tech tree (a complicated process)
[*]Units Editor

This editor should shw a static picture of the unit being edited. You should be able to set unit abilities (move, vision, hit points, defense, etc.) on this screen, as well as the sprite it uses. The tech which allows it should be present here, and should have the same function as setting it in the tech tree editor. Special abilities (of which we could come up with a long list of) could use a seperate screen or maybe a scrollable list of radio buttons. There should be a flag like the role in Civ2, but there should be also the option of "teaching" the unit how to act, i.e. tactics. The last option would fall under would be nice, but the other ones are in the "must-have" category.
[*]Sprite Editor

Basically a editor that edits sprite files. It would be able to create and save sprites with a large (256) color pallette, and should be relatively easy to use. It would be nice to have one, but it would do wonders for helping belaguered scenario creators.
[*]Map Editor

Creates map files for Civ3. A must-have, it should also have optional effects like adding terrain specials by hand, and copying large chuncks of maps and pasting them elsewhere (useful for resizing). You should even be able to place cities and terrain improvements, although that is just an idle idea in my mind.

An event scripting language would be critical for the further development of scenarios. Events allow a creative designers to bend the game to do something that nobody had yet envisioned. Keeping the language simple (like the one used in FW and TOT) will allow beginners to learn faster, but a more C like language would allow for more complex functions. The line probably will have to be drawn somewhere in between.

Other tweakable factors, like governments and the rest should have a way of being edited too with an in-game editor. However, if this is excessive, the extra editors should be dropped.

Above all, ensure that graphics, rules and next to everything that is not part of the main program be in an easily editable format (.txt, .gif, .bmp, etc) so that it can be edited without the use of the editors, if it is prefered.

That's just my opinion though. Use these ideas as you want. Thank you.

Shadowstrike
Shadowstrike is offline  
Old November 22, 2000, 23:57   #35
Mike the Nuke
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Oakdale
Posts: 73
Shadowstrike:

Like it all. About as perfect as youu can get. Ensure all documentation is done correctly with examples for us 'dumb' folks. Great Ideas!
Mike the Nuke is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 02:04   #36
DarthVeda
Emperor
 
DarthVeda's Avatar
 
Local Time: 21:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 4,325
You can build the most sophisticated and easy to use scenario creation tool in the world, but please leave the back door open for people who want to experiment with the bizzare (like Nemo and I). Keep in mind that there is no truth to the phrase "they'll never use that"

If it's in the code, we want to play with it.
DarthVeda is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 02:16   #37
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
[quote]
Sprite Editor
Basically a editor that edits sprite files. It would be able to create and save sprites with a large (256) color pallette, and should be relatively easy to use. It would be nice to have one, but it would do wonders for helping belaguered scenario creators.
{/quote]

I doubt that we will include a Sprite editor that functions like a paint program, mostly because there are so many programs already out there (of varying levels of cost and quality) and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel for a rudimentary sprite editor.

I have a feeling most mod editors who tinker with art files use something on the level of Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro anyway...


Dan
Firaxis Games, Inc.
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 05:50   #38
PrinceBimz
Prince
 
PrinceBimz's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 414
I think CIV3 should do away with this "cheat mode" scenario editor stuff that was in all the CIV games and even SMAC. Please change it, I really don't like the way that works. Why? Well for example when I went to make a SMAC scenario I wanted to add ships and certain units available. But I had to search through the entire tech tree just to give that nation those units. I think it could be much easier then that. You should be able to pick whatever units, techs, and everything else you want and simply place it where you want, setting up everything and creating your own world.

Examples of excellent editors are Starcraft and Age of Kings. I know the CIV games are very different then those RTS games I mention, but an editor that works as good and effective as those would be top notch! Have an external editor like Starcraft, which is a seperate program from the game itself. I notice Activision has improved on the editor with CTP2, which is a great thing.
PrinceBimz is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 10:57   #39
MarkG
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-23-2000 01:16 AM
I doubt that we will include a Sprite editor that functions like a paint program, mostly because there are so many programs already out there (of varying levels of cost and quality) and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel for a rudimentary sprite editor.

I have a feeling most mod editors who tinker with art files use something on the level of Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro anyway...
ARE YOU SAYING THAT UNITS IN CIV3 ARE STILL A SIMPLE GIF?

 
Old November 23, 2000, 12:45   #40
Snapcase on Snapcase
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I hope what he's saying is that the opinion to use bitmapped units is still in there...

I don't mind using external applications to create units, with one caveat: please make the editor alt-tabable or windowed, and with a refresh files function to reload the graphics and text files. This is to make sure we can check how a unit looks, do minor modifications, and continue editing.
 
Old November 23, 2000, 15:49   #41
El hidalgo
Warlord
 
El hidalgo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 190
Re: the map editor:
I agree: Cut and paste, drag and drop, individual placement of special resources, find and replace.

Also:
*Cropping and enlarging -- Sometimes I make a map and decide that I want to make it smaller, or make another, smaller version of it. Now I have to count the tiles, make a new map of the appropriate size, and then start a game with the old map, cheat and reveal map, and then toggle between that and the map editor to accomplish this. Or sometimes I make a map and decide I need more room. I should be able to enlarge the map in that case. Basically I should be able to change the size of the map at any time, not just before I begin creating a map.

* Open a new window with a map, open a new map in a new window. I should be able to open as many windows/maps as my computer can handle.

* Paint bucket: I should be able to fill a specifiable area with any terrain type.

* Guide lines: Currently when I make maps I draw grids -- I make rows and columns of arctic terrain (since that is the least used, at least by me). Then I use the grid thus created as longitude and latitude lines. I look at a real map and build my map based on that, one quadrant at a time. It's much easier to keep things proportional that way, though it is a pain to make the grid. Also the grid I make is actually part of the map, so I have to go and draw over these arctic squares. It would be better to have a grid system that is not part of the actual map, but only part of the editor. This would be like the guide lines in Photoshop.

* The ability to draw a line: I should be able to place a terrain in one sqaure, and the same terrain in other square, and have a line of that terrain drawn connecting the two points.

* Lock any terrain: Currently I can lock the ocean squares so I don't draw over those. Why can't I lock any other terrain type(s)?

* A better random map generator. I don't have any specific suggestions right now, but the Civ 2 generator is horrible. The Civ 1 generator was better, IMO.

El hidalgo is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 16:30   #42
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM
Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?


For this particular game (main game + map-editor) i actually prefer standard MS Windows-style interface with standard Windows controls. Now, stop there! Are you serious, Ralf?? Are you talking about MS Office-graphics?

No! Like everybody else (i believe), i want some customized game interface-ATMOSPHERE.

But *why* not start out with "naked" 100% MS Windows-style - and then let the player have the free choice between different "clothes" (= custom Civ-skins). Nothing drastic; positions, screens and functions remains unchanged. Only superficial cosmetic changes, like colours, patterns, styles, shapes and such.
Could you guys imagine how artisticly talented people out there, really would LOVE to set their teeths into the project of designing the cosmetics around the existing positions, screens and functions in this true follow-up to the all-time classic?

Wood-buttons or shiny metallic ones? For some people, designing these frameworks could be a mini-hobby in iself. "I dont care for this superficial stuff" - OK, choose naked Windows, or some of the more sparse and functional skins then. Check out www.neoplanet.com for inspiration (remember though: if FIRAXIS chooses to implements such a function themselfes, the result is going to be much more integrated then Neoplanets third-party "shell" on top of MS Internet Explorer).

So much for the "cosmetics". What about the controls and functions? Here, i would like to see even more Windows design-mechanics then in SMAC. In addition to select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, radio- or toggle buttons, tabs-screens - also top-right dropdown-menys and (why not) customized toolbar ala simplified Ms Office.

What about principal guidelines how to present the ongoing game-information?

1/ Make one (yes one) big 640x480 multi-tabbed "city/empire/and-all-the-rest" manager-screen (any tab can be radio button-defaulted on fly). Please DONT split up the manager-info CTP-style, or even CTP-2 style.
Its all about *reducing* the amount of mouse-clicks - everything ONE click away on ONE multi-tabbed manager. I would have suggested 800x600 but this all-in-one manager should be nicely overviewable on laptops as well.

But what if i want to look at *several* screen-tabs at once? When you use the toolbar (or dropdown-menu) backup-screen alternative: you can look at several smaller simplified non-input data-only feedback-screens at once on your big high-res monitor. And they all remember their indevidually chosen screen-positions from game to game, of course.

2/ Dont be subtle when it comes to inform the player about cities and units without orders. Let then *flash* clearly and use automatic map-recentering. Also let above single mega-manager and all warnings-messages pop-up automatically in the users face if he wants it that way. If he *dont* want it that way, there should of course be options and tweaks for that as well.

3/ I loved the huge amount of info toggle-options in SMAC - do the same in Civ-3 as well. This or that warning-message or not? Automatic mega-manager popup, or not? And more!

In short; those who let the mayors control their huge 40-60+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in moving around armies, should not feel overwelmed by pop-up screens and popup-messages.
On the other hand: those who ENJOY micro-managing their smaller 15-20+ city-empires, and primarily are interested in nurturing these cities/city-areas for long parts of the game, should have every info/new order popped up in their faces, if they chooses that.

Flexible is the word!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 24, 2000).]
Ralf is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 19:06   #43
DarkCloud
staff
NationStatesAlpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamSpanish CiversCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamApolyton Storywriters' GuildAge of Nations TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
DarkCloud's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Deity of Lists
Posts: 11,873
Map Editing-

-The map editor should not change the tile selection when you use the keypad to move to new squares and place terrain. This is an annoying feature that adds much time to the creation of maps.

-You should also be able to make 2 and 3 tile long rivers and place them down, so as to make an Amazon or Mississippi.
DarkCloud is offline  
Old November 23, 2000, 22:11   #44
Zer0_T0lerance
Warlord
 
Zer0_T0lerance's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: for Eternity
Posts: 229
I think the scenario editor should have an endgame action that can be triggered by an assigned event, or multiple events for different ways to end the scenario. You could make a scenario a race against time: For example, the first civ to discover a specific tech advance or build a specific wonder wins. This would a allow designers to make the ultimate goal of their scenarios something other than to just conquer an enemy civ or conquer the world. I think that whether you use objectives or not, it's quite apparent that the scenario editor in Civ2 is primarily designed to create warbased scenarios and not scenarios based on some economic, scientific, diplomatic or some other non-warlike goal. Because even without objectives, the only other way to win a scenario is to survive, and that is still a warlike goal.

------------------
Zero (formerly jrhughes98)
Zer0_T0lerance is offline  
Old November 24, 2000, 02:25   #45
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
quote:

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS on 11-20-2000 01:23 PM
Do you prefer standard Windows-based interfaces with standard types of controls (i.e., select/combo boxes, tree metaphors, etc.) or something more customized and specific to the game?


Im not sure if above only implies the map-editor. I beleive it envolves suggestions about the MAIN GAME as well.

Dont forget this important subject - not everything is about that map-editor, you know. I have already started in my previous post.

More interface-specific opinions and suggestions needed!

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 24, 2000).]
Ralf is offline  
Old November 24, 2000, 06:51   #46
Kull
lifer
King
 
Local Time: 18:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: El Paso, TX USA
Posts: 1,751
Map Editor: If you could toggle directly into the map editor from within a game, that would be most useful. The map editor would be available on the menu, and selections would include
- "Normal" = The default selection. The standard game view with all manmade and natural terrain features visible but WITHOUT the terrain editing menubar.
- "Hide Manmade" = All man-made entities would disappear from view, and the map edit menu bar would appear. This would allow you to make vast changes to the terrain without any impact on the manmade overlay. Enhanced by using small symbols to represent the man made items, none of which would be affected by the editing tools.
- "Edit All" = All features are visible and terrain editing wipes out the manmade items too.
- "Visibility" = Allows you to edit the portions of the map which are visible or unexplored for each civ. Should be able to select and edit this view for every civ. Not terrain editing per se, but perhaps a good place for this feature.

Barbarians: If Civ3 is going to retain Barbarians as a "differently abled" civ, it would be nice if a single toggle could give them ALL the capabilities of a typical AI civ.

Scenario Design Experts: With a few exceptions, most of the best and brightest Civ2 scenario designers continue to focus their efforts on the Fantastic Worlds release of Civ2. These are the people you MUST attract to Civ3, and yet they've almost ignored the MGE and ToT releases. There's a lesson here for Firaxis, and the sales of ToT certainly bear it out. If you want Civ3 to truly replace Civ2, you'll have to convince this corps of top designers that it's worth their while to make the switch. Those are the people who's innovative scenarios breathe new life into an early 90's game, and without their commitment Civ3 will never approach the success of it's predecessor.
Kull is offline  
Old November 24, 2000, 07:42   #47
Salvius
Settler
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dayton, OH, USA
Posts: 18
Some things I'd like:

1) If there is 3D elevation in the maps, the ability to import heightmaps would be nice. This would make it easy to edit (can be done in a paint program) and, perhaps more importantly, to use real-world data (by grabbing USGS DEM data). SimCity 3000 allows this, though not very easily (requires entering a "cheat" code). A better example might be Myth II. I realize that there may be issues to work out with regard to using a rectangular heightmap in an isometric view (assuming it's similar to CivII in that respect)...

2) "In my dreams" feature: Random map generation that (optionally, since it would take time) actually runs through a few million years of plate tectonic and climate simulation. See if you can't entice Greg Costikyan to design it for you -- I saw some Designer's Notes somewhere where he was proud of finally being able to use his geology degree for just this purpose in the little-known "Evolution" game he worked on for Discovery Multimedia (in fact, I sent him an email suggesting a utility to export Evolution maps to CivII, and he said it was something they'd actually thought about doing -- Evolution ends at pretty much the point where Civilization begins -- but decided that since the games use radically different map styles that it would be too difficult...).

3) Civ-specific technologies, or some other similar method of granting special abilities to certian civilizations. This would probably require the ability to designate technologies as untradeable, unstealable, never appearing in "goodie huts", etc. (that is, only acquirable through research), then allowing us to add them to a civ's known techs at the start of a scenario. For example, in a fantasy scenario, an evil civ might be the only one able (or willing) to research necromancy. There could then be an entire sub-tree of "evil" tech, all designated as "research-only", and the evil civ(s) in a scenario could be given the first tech in that branch in the beginning. I would classify this as "must-have", given that it would provide great flexibility/customizability, and doesn't seem too difficult to implement.
Salvius is offline  
Old November 25, 2000, 02:13   #48
StormLord
Settler
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bloemfontein, OFS, South Africa
Posts: 6
Hi,

A scenario should be a single file/folder that can easily be installed. This should include graphics, sounds, texts, map, everything...

And like the other guy said, no artificial limits like the 'only sea units can transport' limit.

I once wanted to make an alternate history scenario, with a balloon unit that can transport ground units, but I couldn't.

Another example of an artificial limit would be the fact that I can't stop certain civs from getting certain techs or certain units. Let's say I want to create a humans vs. aliens scenario. If the humans steal the aliens' guns they shouldn't build alien units, but human units with the new type of gun.

A simple way to add this would be to give one unit more than one prereq tech, and create a 'civ-type' tech which is not stealable, but rather defines the type of civ. (Human-Tech and Alien-Tech for example)

Also, graphics MUST be modifiable. I couldn't figure out how to put in my own graphics for SMAC units, so I couldn't make any scenarios.

StormLord is offline  
Old November 25, 2000, 15:21   #49
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
I have already suggested this in a e-mail to Chris Pine, but because this idea fits so snugly under this particular thread, i might as well recreate a rehashed version of it here:

Im not sure if this is 100% workable, but it would be absolutely great if the Civ-3 map-editor had the ability to allow map-constructing players to manually pin-point invisible AI-city locations on hand-made maps (locations - NOT to be confused with placing visible scenario-cities - thats a different thing).
The AI could then ONLY found cities on these pre-designated squares, carefully hand-dotted all over these maps. The human player can (of course) found hes own cities anywhere he wants.

In order to expand, first AI-city have produce the equivivalent recourses of an settler-unit (no cheating). If an AI-city location is perhaps 6 squares away from that first city - the AI simply have to wait 6 turns: then the second city pops up automatically on that pre-designated square/location. During gameplay yet "uninhabitad" AI city locations are of course all invisible from a human player viewpoint.

The invisible programming-benefit:

The hopeless task of effectively trying to navigate AI-controlled settlers to promising city locations on an unknown map, just under a few short in-between-turns seconds, is totally bypassed!!
This is already taken cared of by the map-constructor. All the AI-civ have to do is to regurlary check up if these originally empty locations isnt already occupied/overlaped by any other AI-player (or by the unknown "wild card" here = the human player), before expanding himself.

The visible human player-benefit:

More efficient AI-controlled civ-expansions, on more effectively utilized islands and continents.
Ralf is offline  
Old November 25, 2000, 19:30   #50
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
quote:

Originally posted by MarkG on 11-23-2000 09:57 AM
ARE YOU SAYING THAT UNITS IN CIV3 ARE STILL A SIMPLE GIF?



Well, based on what I've said before about the goal of this game to be the absolute best Civ game ever, I think it's pretty safe to assume we're no longer using single-tile images for the units a la Civ II. =)

What I was specifically making mention of in my post earlier was that "sprite editors" that are included with games are usually just flimsy little apps whipped up in a few minutes to satisfy that "OK, now they we can say that sprites are editable" requirement. In most cases, that "sprite editor" is rudimentary at best and horribly awkward to use at worst. I would tend to think that mod developers who are serious about creating new graphics for a game would prefer to use professional-level tools like Photoshop or even shareware apps that are more feature-rich than a simple "draw and erase" type editor.

Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.


Dan Magaha FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 25, 2000, 19:35   #51
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Firaxis Games
 
Dan Magaha FIRAXIS's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: The Metropolis known as Hunt Valley
Posts: 612
quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 11-23-2000 03:30 PM
For this particular game (main game + map-editor) i actually prefer standard MS Windows-style interface with standard Windows controls. Now, stop there! Are you serious, Ralf?? Are you talking about MS Office-graphics?

No! Like everybody else (i believe), i want some customized game interface-ATMOSPHERE.

But *why* not start out with "naked" 100% MS Windows-style - and then let the player have the free choice between different "clothes" (= custom Civ-skins).
(snip)




Ralf,

I don't disagree with you, and this idea has been tossed around in the office, but let's try to keep this thread specifically on-topic regarding editor functionality. I'd like to keep this thread from becoming just another reincarnation of a general Civ III wishlist for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is my own sanity.

Thanks,


Dan Magaha
Firaxis Games, Inc.


Dan Magaha FIRAXIS is offline  
Old November 26, 2000, 02:01   #52
zyxpsilon
Warlord
 
zyxpsilon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Laval,Quebec,Canada
Posts: 128
If anything is is to be suggested for the editors, then that's what i would ask;

1) External, WITH precision over parameters limitation.

2) DarkReign's style but sticking to FW options.

3) Waypoints manoeuvering on multiple fields, nothing i would like more than to really intercept for example; by pathing my planes, a bomber endangering a city limits defensive towers. Tectonic, ground, sea, atmospheric, space levels.

4) You could also refer to a letter i sent in April 98 to Todd Cioni.

As long as you think it's FUN... burn it on the CD.
zyxpsilon is offline  
Old November 26, 2000, 02:22   #53
Salvius
Settler
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dayton, OH, USA
Posts: 18
RE: Types of scenarios I'd like to be able to do.

Discworld (based on the Terry Pratchett books) - this would require the ability to designate a terrain type as being totally impassable to all units (to use for the "space" that would surround the edges of a disc-shaped world in a rectangular map), or perhaps that would *destroy* any units attempting to traverse it (ie, falling off the edge of the world), and possibly an option like the one in CivII that let you specify that there is no "wraparound" (an option that appears to be missing in CTP2, grumble grumble). Both of these options would have wider application -- a scenario covering only Europe, for example, wouldn't wrap around, and impassable "wall" terrain would allow things like an all-underground scenario.

Historical scenarios - Again, "no wraparound" is a must. Other options that would be useful: Setting particular squares/cities/units/etc. as victory point objectives. Setting entirely new victory conditions, for that matter (e.g., establish a trade route with China, discover the Northwest Passage, etc.). Specifying start points for every civilization, such that even if only a few are selected when starting a new game, they will appear in their historical locations (and perhaps even if they pop in later to replace destroyed civs). Named terrain (see below). The ability to place special resources by hand in their historical locations.

Other editor features:

Named Terrain - It would be neat to be able to name landmarks (even if it would have no functional use). For example, a historical scenario could have "Mississippi River", "Lake Superior", "Rocky Mountains", etc. labeled as such. It could even be set up so that whichever player first discovers a landmark, they could have the option of giving it their own name ("Bob's Mountains"), though that's beyond the scope of an editor discussion.

Linked Maps - I believe HOMM3 allows you to do this, to have a surface map linked to an underground map in specific locations. Without having bought it, it looks like Civ2:ToT also has something similar.

Special Abilities - I mentioned this in my earlier post, I just wanted to expand on it a bit. An example: In a fantasy scenario, the dwarven civilization might have the ability (or an untradeable tech allowing improvements) to derive food from mountainous terrain. This would effectively encourage dwarves to settle in mountains (where you would expect to find them), since it would be more difficult for other civs to compete with them in that niche. Or, Japan might be able to construct samurai that are slightly stronger than swordsmen of other nations, due to the higher-quality steel available to them (at least partly because the ore there was better than most other places).
Salvius is offline  
Old November 26, 2000, 06:14   #54
ContradictioN
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
No longer using single-tile images eh?

Icedan's happy. :]
 
Old November 26, 2000, 08:31   #55
Wazell
Chieftain
 
Wazell's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Fine Land
Posts: 85
As others have already mentioned, the linked maps feature is very important. HoMM3 has two map levels (surface and underground), Age of Wonders has three and ToT has four levels. Civ3 also needs this system, though I'm not sure how it should work. Is it so that if you make a multi-level scenario for ToT, you need to make all four maps separately, then linking them in-game? Or are they in single map file? Best way could be integrating map editor and scenario editor so it's possible to make built-in caves and teleports to maps (like in other games). Players should also be able to build their own transport systems like in TOT.

Scenario presentation - As you might know, some scenario designers include large html files within their works to tell the player what's this all about. Wouldn't it be cool if this was a built-in feature. I don't mean any 3d-presentation like in Hidden&Dangerous before each mission, but a simple tool with which you could give your players a look to different parts of scenario and provide text messages before game starts. Not essential though.

And events editor must be a lot better. For example we have DESTROYACIVILIZATION function, which is neat but not enough in most cases. Say that I play against an evil civ and they have taken half of my cities. Now I get a lucky chance, attack to their capital with few units and manage to kill the evil leader. And what happens? Yes, all their units and cities are wiped out immediately. There goes my old cities and all. Better way is AoW's "Leaders on map" feature: when you kill enemy leader, their side falls, and all their units and cities become independent. Fair enough. More event triggers are needed too. Such as unitattacked and cityattacked, which tells the game that specific unit or city has been attacked (not necessarily captured), wardeclared and madealliance, and so forth.
Wazell is offline  
Old November 26, 2000, 09:45   #56
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
My experience was that the TOT-style linked multi-map feature divided and diluteted the overall game-experience, and it seems also make map- and scenario-editing even more time-consuming then it already is.
Even the CTP-concept of "cities floating around in the stratosphere" was dropped in CTP-2. They had probably solid reasons for doing that.

Anyway: i like El hidalgo´s idea of cropping and enlarging existing coninent-shapes.

Also: then i played Civ-2 WW-1, WW-2, Napoleon war-scenarios, the AI-civs often "lost their objectives" and started to found new cities instead.
I realize much can be done with triggers and such, but dont forget simple stuff like having the ability to block out non-relevant units and improvements for that particular scenario, thus saving the AI from itself.
Ralf is offline  
Old November 26, 2000, 16:45   #57
Uncle Sparky
NationStates
King
 
Uncle Sparky's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1,166
PLEASE have simple Window's based editing a la Civ2.
I have no programming skills what so ever, but can still create scenarios with the Civ2 MPG that I can't with any other game. Please adhear to the KISS principle.

------------------
There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.
Uncle Sparky is offline  
Old November 27, 2000, 14:24   #58
Drakenred
Warlord
 
Local Time: 01:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Hou Tx
Posts: 131
in order of priority

1) Drag and drop Special resorce Tials, to beter recreate real world maps(also the ability to modify the values individual tial types and Special terains alow in that scenario.

1a) also the ability to select more difering special tial types for use by the random genorators, and to Exclude specific types(IE Excluding Tundra-glaciers in a African-style map, or having more forest terain with no oceans in a Mid-america style random map.

2) Ability to include or exclude units-buildings-WotW-tial inprovments-alowed tec advances, AI personality types ect with a on screen Menu(simular to the Unit selection-exclusion in CTP3s editor) and to alow/disalow or scale the Tec progress to the time alowed in scenario

3)External Scenario-map Generators.
Drakenred is offline  
Old November 27, 2000, 18:32   #59
Ralf
King
 
Ralf's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:03
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,728
While the player can create any scenario to be either historic, modern, futuristic or even fantasy, the MAIN GAME, by comparision, should ONLY concern itself with historic and modern eras (upto 2040 AD) - just like Civ-2, basically.

The reason for this is that with a powerful SCENARIO-EDITOR you can, besides making historic and modern scenarios, also tailor-cut exactly how you want these futuristic (or fantasy) scenarios to be - including chosen value-systems and overal existence-conditions.

The problem with expanding the MAIN GAME horizon beyond 2040, is that Firaxis then easily build themselfes in a corner. As long as we are dealing with prior 2040, then we are dealing with mostly known value-systems and realities. Unless something very drastic happens the next 40 years, the historic and modern facts and conditions of mankinds existence here on earth are likely to stay, mostly the same.

However, then we are looking beyond - into the distant 2100-3000 AD future, then our indevidually subjective (and often narrow-minded) pre-conceptions about our future begins to rear its ugly head. Someone wants "market- and mega-corp" to be the most advanced future government, while others wants "Tecnocracy" (what ever that means). A third wants a "humane world-peace and economical justice" government.

These future made-up governments and value-systems felt perfectly OK in SMAC, because the Alpha Centauri world was so totally strange and different. But, know we are talking MOTHER EARTH here.
Personally, i feel almost repulsion about the idea of "Market- and Mega-corp" being an so-called "advanced", and still viable future 2200-2500 AD government alternative, while likewise; someone else feel the same about some unrealistic "social paradise" type of "true Utopia".

Even though such a utopic government-type could be implemented in the main game, its almost unavoidable that we have narrow-minded ideas about the limitations of such a futuristic humane utopia-society.

The truth is WE DONT KNOW what our future is going to be. We can only believe strongly (or vaguely), or perhaps not believe at all.

Why not let a powerfull, easy-to-use and reasonably newbie-friendly SCENARIO-EDITOR overtake the responsibility of how Civ-3 2041-3000 AD future is going to look like? Those who wants a Bladerunner-style Civ-future can tailor-cut such a scenario. Why not sell the game with some alternatively different future-scenarios included?


Final principe-ideas about the editor:

Some civer´s want a backdoor open in the scenario-editor in order to get down-and-dirty with the under-the-hood mechanics. That perfectly OK, but also try to make a more user-friendly drag-and-dropish and intuitive point-and-clickish scenario-editor this time, for the rest of us. Even some basic script- and event-triggering should be (reasonably) more userfriendly.
Lastly, the .txt tweak-files should also undergo some userfriendly owerhaul, as much as (reasonably) possible, with easier-to-read format and with more explantations and examples.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited November 27, 2000).]
Ralf is offline  
Old November 27, 2000, 19:03   #60
Maccabee2
Warlord
 
Maccabee2's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:03
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 121
If external map/scenario editors will make them
(1) easier to use
(2) more customizable
then I am in favor of external over internal editors.
I want customizability and ease of use, in that order.
Maccabee2 is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 21:03.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team