Why are Civ snobs so against CTP2?

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
This feature isn't that important in the Civ series, as unlike in CtP2, the city radius does not change, it's always the same "fat X", same size as the 1st expansion (with 7..18 pop points? Don't remember...) in CtP2. I usually simply Ctrl-G to turn the grid on/off quickly and I figure it.

Its one of those little things that visually helps the players though - CTP1 had the same static city 'x' shape, but there was also a more drastic contrast between a city and the 'explored' fog of war area, so there was a little less need to spend time mentally working it out.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Also, with the latest patch (you applied 1.21f, did you? You should...), if you send a settler and point him with the mouse cursor to the destination tile, you see a blue line which represents the change to your borders if you found the city there. This also helps.

Yeah, I have patch 1.21. I'll have to remember that trick.

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
About move time: If playing a monster game on a huge (or even custom) map and founding 200+ cities (I did), you can really make only 1-2 turns/hour, especially if you are at war. But that is seldom the case and pretty much depends on your computing power. I remember Aeson telling about a monstrous deity game on a huge map for the CivFanatics Hall of Fame (he scored about 65000, which is almost unbeatable), he had hundreds of cities and at one point over 900 workers (including captured). That's freaky! He reported, that he needed a hour for his moves. But that are exceptions. If I play a standard map game (30-50 cities), I make a turn in 1 minute (maybe up to 5 minutes if at war), at a huge map (60-100 cities) I may need 3 minutes for my turns, and 10-15 if at war. The AI turns come in seconds on standard and about 2-3 minutes on a very complicated huge game in the late stadium with many units in the sight radius. That's acceptable. But as I said, depends on the computing power. To play a huge game on a 128MB PII/400 is certainly not fun.

Game performance has not been a problem so far for me so far - but I have a low end computer (P2-350 with 192 RAM) and most of the reports talk about the late turn drag. I know that Firaxis has tried to fix this area with the patches too.

At the same time, I'm hoping that I do not have to shut down features of the civ3 game though, because I can still maintain all of the bells and whistles going on in CTP2 on my system. I enjoy having the atmospheric touches because it keep my interest going. (BTW, so far I like the civ3 music.)

Most of the time per turn I spend is on making decisions though (a habit from my PBEM days) and I tend to do things slowly, so I'm interested in maintaining a balance between the need to micromanage and not having that aspect devolve into tedium.

[Harovan]

I played at a PII/350 with 128MB till March. Map sizes standard and below run smooth, or later at least acceptable. I played few huge games with 16 civs, but that actually needs a lot of RAM, which I hadn't, and therefor ran slow. In the modern age, with a lot of territory in sight, AI turns can take very long on a huge map. Hint: Turn off the unit animations in the preferences (all four options) and consider to turn the display of friendly (and maybe enemy) units off as well. Most things you'll see is the AI to send large stacks of units around on patrols (like, btw, in ctp1/2 too), which isn't necessary. If they attack, you'll see it anyway, since the combat display remains "on".

With my new computer, I have no performance problems at all.

PS (edit): Btw, you will love the music in the modern age. It rocks .

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
About move time: If playing a monster game on a huge (or even custom) map and founding 200+ cities (I did), you can really make only 1-2 turns/hour, especially if you are at war. But that is seldom the case and pretty much depends on your computing power. I remember Aeson telling about a monstrous deity game on a huge map for the CivFanatics Hall of Fame (he scored about 65000, which is almost unbeatable), he had hundreds of cities and at one point over 900 workers (including captured). That's freaky! He reported, that he needed a hour for his moves. But that are exceptions. If I play a standard map game (30-50 cities), I make a turn in 1 minute (maybe up to 5 minutes if at war), at a huge map (60-100 cities) I may need 3 minutes for my turns, and 10-15 if at war. The AI turns come in seconds on standard and about 2-3 minutes on a very complicated huge game in the late stadium with many units in the sight radius. That's acceptable. But as I said, depends on the computing power. To play a huge game on a 128MB PII/400 is certainly not fun.

This is my problem, in Civ2 I played on maps as big as it was in the standart options possible. Of course on a customized world map with some extra continets. Usually I had in the end an empire of 200++ cities for each city >one settler/engineer. That was a pain to move all of these settlers and caravans. I had also move times of one hour and that was only the move time of the civilian units. Unfortunatly this was only for the human turn and in the end I was able to reduce this time to zero, but this was always a long way, and finally my 486 needed to add all the city improvement and make cities happy/unhappy and so on half an hour. My K6 needed 5 minutes for this task but actual too long if you consider that you only hit turn afterwards. This is the advance of CTP1 no Settler stuff in the late game just use PW and your empire will be improved, no need to consider how to get rid of settlers in the end and 300++ cities wasn't any problem to manage, just the memory was a problem, but this can be solved by buying a memory upgrade. In CTP2 I never had 200++ cities, because of the bigger city radius.

I think this worker problem is the only problem that will keep me in the end from playing Civ apart from a lack of time. This settler problem kept me from buying SMAC, too. (At least I played a demo of SMAC)

-Martin

[Harovan]

Martin, did you read my reply to hexagonians test issue #4 above? (the post 11:02 MET) The "200 worker problem" is directly addressed. It's no problem anymore, believe me.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Martin, did you read my reply to hexagonians test issue #4 above? (the post 11:02 MET) The "200 worker problem" is directly addressed. It's no problem anymore, believe me.

I read this post (unfortunatly not all the post between my post the mentioned post entirely). So I guess the observations from your post I quoted above are made before the latest patch. But let ask me another quoetion: In the end of a Civ2 game I hadn't any problem with settlers, I moved all of them to a nice place for sleep (No pollution was there to fix). So if the automization done than it is not a problem, but what is before you reached the point to automize your workers or better when is the time to automize and how many workers do you have then. Or better are needed at this point to improve the whole world in a not too long numbers of turn on a huge map with 200++ cities.

I guess in the end it is only a lack of time that keeps me playing from Civ3 and of course of CTP2 as well.

-Martin

[Harovan]

Martin: I build my basic improvement in the medieval age, and I try to build 1 worker for every city. If I found 50 own cities, this makes at most 50 workers. Usually, I can't build more cities even on a huge map, because I get hemmed in by the AI. Road building takes 3 turns, irrigating 4 and mining 6, forest cutting 10, jungle cleaning 24 (with 1 worker). Captured workers need the double time. Roads and mines doubled at hills, tripled at mountains. This gives an average of about 5-10 workers per turn to move. Acceptable. No need to decide much, grassland, hills and mountains get mined, plains and desert irrigated. Exceptions are rare and usually food related.

Later, when I conquered other civs, it's usually not worth to improve their terrain. First, as the AI eagerly builds own terrain improvements, a big part is already done, and second, these cities will be corrupt anyway and give 1 shield/1 gold regardless if improved or not.

As soon as I hit the industrial age, I quickly build a strategical railroad network (takes 10 turns or less), then Shift-A (automate preserving existing improvements) most of the workers and disable movement display. It's nice to see the further improvements grow. If some city is hit by pollution, I see the next turn gang up workers there (infinite movement , yea I know you don't like it) and - poof! - it's gone the same turn without the need to interact myself. The priority of pollution cleaning and resource connecting is fairly high.

If handled properly, the worker tedium is entirely gone.

[Martin Gühmann]

I guess to find how huge the problem is with these workers I have to play Civ3 on my own. In the end we can record Civ3 must be patched to be playable, so I have to download something. But I am used to it by the CTP2 mods, so no problem with this. Another thing would be first to get used to unit depending terrain improvement that would need some time and maybe a restart of my first Civ3 game, yes I forgot to improve my terrain as I tried Civ2 on my computer after CTP1/2 again, I quitted this Civ2 game very fast, BTW the Civ2 music was cool.

But another remark on your terrain improvement choices, grassland gets mines? Actual I gave grassland irrigation in Civ2 to get cities as big as possible. I liked this to build cities and seeing them growing and growing...

-Martin

[Harovan]

I don't like big cities, but that's a matter of taste. They have the huge disadvantage, that they produce rampant pollution (in both games) and I need expansive improvements to keep them clean. Also, in Civ2/3, the unhappiness in the cities is pretty big in the higher levels, and it's easier to keep small cities content or happy. If I wanted bigger cities, I could irrigate grassland. That's just a personal preference .

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
CTP2 was a big disappointment. Does the multiplayer now work? Where can I get a game?

Multiplayer works just fine and you can buy the game for $10 at Amazon.com

[arktiem]

I have been enjoying the intelligent postings on the various likes/dislikes - goods/bads about our beloved Civilization genre games. I have played and found things to enjoy within all of them. The only real complaint that I have about Civ III now that it has been well patched (1.21f - must be honest - didn't like it at all on its initial release) is something I have only occasionally read others touch upon. The screen resolution.

These eyes of mine are not as young as they once were and medical problems have taken further toll on my eyesight so it is very difficult for me to read the text or see the neat graphics of Civ III under the 1024 X 768 only resolution. What good is eye candy if your peepers can't digest 'em?

If CTP1 and CTP2 both were able to show their advanced graphics (certainly advanced over any of the pre Civ III series of Sid Meier Civ games) at lower resolutions (CTP1 being the best for poor eyesight) it certainly seems a possibility for the screen resolution of Civ III to be reduced a bit (800 X 600 would be just fine). I know it would allow a lot more enjoyment for me.

Arktiem

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by arktiem
If CTP1 and CTP2 both were able to show their advanced graphics (certainly advanced over any of the pre Civ III series of Sid Meier Civ games) at lower resolutions (CTP1 being the best for poor eyesight) it certainly seems a possibility for the screen resolution of Civ III to be reduced a bit (800 X 600 would be just fine). I know it would allow a lot more enjoyment for me.

Arktiem

I guess you already know this thread to reduce the screen resolution in Civ3. CTP1 and CTP2 do support a screen resolution 800 X 600 without editing some external files. Just go to the game options and go there to the resolutions and set it there to 800 X 600. Of course you have to make shure that CTP1/2 can overwrite the userprofile.txt. Alternativly you can edit this file by hand (only necessary if you want lower resolutions then 800 X 600) you find it in your ..\ctp2_dta\ctp\ folder and modify there the ScreenResWidth=
and ScreenResHeight= entries.

-Martin

[arktiem]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann


I guess you already know this thread to reduce the screen resolution in Civ3. CTP1 and CTP2 do support a screen resolution 800 X 600 without editing some external files. Just go to the game options and go there to the resolutions and set it there to 800 X 600. Of course you have to make shure that CTP1/2 can overwrite the userprofile.txt. Alternativly you can edit this file by hand (only necessary if you want lower resolutions then 800 X 600) you find it in your ..\ctp2_dta\ctp\ folder and modify there the ScreenResWidth=
and ScreenResHeight= entries.

-Martin

Yes I did know of the reduced RES hack that has been developed for Civ III, but having tried it, it is a real pain to scroll around the screen with. What I would like is for Firaxis/Infogrames to add the option for true 800 X 600 resolution to Civ III in a future update/patch. One that would give us everything without all the scrolling.

The lower RES is just one of the many reasons I love CTP1 and CTP2!! I was NOT aware, however that you can code in a lower than 800 X 600 RES for CTP2... thank you for that tidbit, Martin! Has anyone tried a 640 X 480 RES for CTP2? I will give it a try and see what it looks like. I can imagine that the Helm and Mini-map would be space hogs an that size. 800 X 600 is fine for me though which is why I would really like a TRUE version of that RES for Civ III.

Arktiem

[Chronus]

and you can buy the game for $10 at Amazon.com

Cool! I've been waiting for this game to hit the $10 price.

To be honest, I'm still quite skeptical. Throwing away $10, however, won't kill my budget and though I didn't drool over CTP 1, it wasn't a bad game either.

I didn't quite read all of the comments regarding the "tedious settler movement" situation. However, I just wanted to second Sir Ralph's comment regarding the settler automation . . . it really is quite good. Did Ralph also mention that you can direct a "planned construction line" for roads and railroads by using Ctrl+r (Ctrl + R for railroads)? I've found this very useful for connecting cities via roads.

Hi Martin. I guess I shouldn't be suprised to see you here after our brief "conversation" in the Civ 3 forum. That little chat inspired me to revisit this CTP2 forum.

What Ralph said earlier (I think it was Ralph) regarding CTP2 bashing in the Civ 3 forum is probably true. We have two "interesting specimens" who constantly visit the forum and bash our beloved Civ 3. I wouldn't be suprised if they accounted for 90% of the bashing. Anyway, after they leave, along comes a CTP2 lover and merely tries to express his/her opinion when . . . WHAM! They are shot down! It's kind of annoying and sad, really, because the whole idea of "personal preference" gets torn down and some people get hurt by it.

Incidently, I use the term "interesting specimens" because I find the phsychi of these people . . . well . . . interesting. They hate the game and they act as if everyone who opposes them are idiots. If they had merely expressed their opinion a few times and then left . . . fine. But to come back month in and month out, constantly criticising, is just rather bizzare. They may claim to be "true civ fans" and that they are merely trying to salvage it but . . . dang . . . I think there is a more appropriate explanation for this: "misery loves company."

Well, I should be back if I get CTP2. I'm also curious to see what Immortal Wombat thinks about Civ 3. But whichever game your heart is in . . . enjoy!

[Oerdin]

Chronus: I'm glade you're going to give CTP2 a try at $10 you really have nothing to lose and I think you will get hours of enjoyment out of it. Be sure to install the patch, mod swapper, and the latest Apolyton mod. This will VASTLY improve the game in general and the AI in proticular.

Happy computing...

[Immortal Wombat]

I'm also curious to see what Immortal Wombat thinks about Civ 3. But whichever game your heart is in . . . enjoy!

Its good. It captures the flavour of Civ2, but adds much more depth. But my heart lies in the modding, so I'll stick around over here I think.

[arktiem]

Hey there!!

Martin:
I tried manually changing the screen resolution to 640 X 480 in CTP2's userprofile.txt, but it seems as though there is a limit set elsewhere because the program still runs at 800 X 600. I wondered if that would be the case simply because of the real estate that the Minimap and Helm take up. It would be HUGE in the lower resolution. :-) Was worth investigating though.

Arktiem

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by arktiem
Hey there!!

Martin:
I tried manually changing the screen resolution to 640 X 480 in CTP2's userprofile.txt, but it seems as though there is a limit set elsewhere because the program still runs at 800 X 600. I wondered if that would be the case simply because of the real estate that the Minimap and Helm take up. It would be HUGE in the lower resolution. :-) Was worth investigating though.

Arktiem

Did you write protect the userprofile.txt Arktiem? That is the last possibility to prevent the game to reset the screen resolution. And check finally if the game removed the your modifications. Maybe the game will crash if you try it this way, but even if it does work you would have to shrink down the whole userinterface and the art, at least modding these things is no problem, but it needs a lot of time.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Hmm, I thought the 800x600 resolution was supported by default in CtP2... I know for a fact that the programmers intended this and that they designed the UI to support this (that is in fact for a large part why it's so cumbersome: otherwise it would look all screwed up on 800x600). Maybe QA or management or whatever came in between there?

Anyway, yes, 800x600 will work just fine in CtP2 but 640x480 indeed won't. That would have meant even more drastic sacrifices to the UI, the design team was not ready to make such sacrifices and they had insufficient resources available te design a completely different interface for lower resoltions (believe me, we Apolyton testers whined and whined about this, but they really couldn't make the UI any better than it is ).

With some modding of the ldl files, you could probably make the game 640x480 friendly, but that does take some time and effort...

[arktiem]

Hey there!

Martin:
I didn't try write protecting the file. After I tried the changes I looked at the userprofile.txt and the changes I made were still there, so as Locutus as suggested, the program was designed for 800 X 600 or higher and the amount of modding required isn't worth the effort. :-) I can certainly live happily with 800 X 600. These eyes can still make out things pretty well. :-) It'a Civ III's minimum 1024 X 768 that I wish I could change without all the scrolling that is required with the MOD for it. Oh well... if that is all I have to complain about today, I be happy.

Locutus:
Thank you for the confirmation. And you are correct... CTP II's default resolution is 800 X 600. I just wondered if it were possible to make it run at the 640 X 480 like C:CTP did. That would have be slightly easier for me to read, but I can fully understand that it would have meant some pretty intense work on and sacrifices to the UI and as it is the UI is pretty well implemented (I just wish there was a way to make the entire message show up word wrapped in the message screen instead of having to pop them up). And you are certainly right... it would take a lot of time and effort to change the interface and it isn't worth it. :-) Thanks a bunch!

Arktiem

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by arktiem
I just wish there was a way to make the entire message show up word wrapped in the message screen instead of having to pop them up

I edited the messages in the strings file on my version so that they're short enough to fit. For instance, I have messages like "Rome builds Granary. Next: Aqueduct". I find that helpful.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Imagine, if somebody came here and opened a CtP2 bashing thread twice a day?

Seem to have missed this line.

No need to imagine, this forum used to be crawling with flamers and whiners... AH being one of the most infamous of them (although in reality also one of the most reasonable, although Markos will never admit that ). Still, I don't recall anyone ever bashing Civ2 because of it. Then again, we had good arguments to get counter them: if you don't like it, change it

one of you gentlemen there, who says, how much better modded CtP2 is

Talking about which, we've been promoting this game whenever we could, but one of the best forums for doing so, the Other Games Forum, has so far been almost void of CtP2 activities. Just an observation

[Anguille2]

Hello,

I am pretty new to all this CIVILIZATION world. I had in my possession CIV2 which i had bought for a couple of bucks and had played only the WW2 scenarios.
My real experience started this year when i bought CIV3 (version 1.17). I got immediately hooked to the game even if a couple of things where not perfect (too little money, Diplomacy engine). I've played it a lot.
A month ago, i bought CCTP. After installation, i wasn't really keen to play it as the graphics were not so great as in CIV3, and the game had too much things. I got it installed again 2 weeks ago, and i've played it a lot. Result: i think it's a great game, very deep. Diplomacy means something, you get money to buy land ameliorations, great tech tree and so on.
I've bought CTP2 last week and have started to play it yesterday....seems very promising.
2 day ago i started a CIV3 game and got frustrated as it really wasn't so much fun as CTP.
I will play CIV3 again, but the approach is different. I would say that CIV3 is more like a boardgame...with an offensive play style.
CTP is much deeper.
I guess we can't really compare them as the you have to play completely differently.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Anguille2
I guess we can't really compare them as the you have to play completely differently.

That's the conclusion everyone seems to reach in the end...

[child of Thor]

No! everyone is way too reasonable about this!
Civ3 was rushed out by an unforgiving publisher and is by this fact a mere shaddow of what it could have been.

CTP2 on the other hand....er.....mmmm....cough....was rushed out by an unforgiving publisher and is a mere shadow of what it could have been.
Oh yeah at least it can be modded at quite a deep level......yah sucks to Civ3! it smells of rotten fruit



[disclaimer: I CoT have in no way played Civ3, or any version thereof-so i don't actually know anything other than what i read on the apolyton forums(good+bad)]

[Cookie Monster]

Excellent thread..........

Sir Ralph's arguments truely show that he is a logical and mature individual. We should all look at the big picture before bashing any games.

Now my quick opinion. I'm one of those very rare gamers that actually loves both Civ3 and the CtP series. Each has their own compelling features that keep me entertained for hours. Sure, lately I've been playing nothing but Civ3, but that's because I haven't truelly mastered Civ3 at Regent yet. I have done well but need more improvement in CtP2. So in short I love both games.

I think the key for me anyway is "ignorance is bliss". I guess that I try not to think too much about game flaws, although I do recognize and don't like them, and just try to work with them and play the game.