Civs included. Just the facts madam.

The Gamespy screenshots from the E3 preview include a city called 'Salamanca' which is in Spain. Spanish are in?

[Gramphos]

Persepolis is on the mapscreen which means that the Persians are in.

[senowen]

In this picture http://www.gamespy.com/asp/image.asp...v3/image18.jpg there is a city called Gewauga which was a village of one of the nations of the Iroquois, who were not one tribe but an alliance of tribes.

Also, there is the city Persepolis, which was the great city of the Persians. Bactra was a city in the Persian empire as well. The Persians have to be in there.

Plus in this shot http://www.gamespy.com/asp/image.asp...v3/image20.jpg the city of Nippur is shown. Nippur was an ancient Sumerian city, which would have made it part of the Babylonian civ in CivII.
[This message has been edited by senowen (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Bereta_Eder]

Thank you Mister Pleasant
Thank you vgriph
Thank you senowen

First of all in the matter of the american indians (sorry to have confused you, I was thinking in greek were Indi is indians and indiani is american indians).

We have 3 facts that strongly suggest Iroquois.

_the text in the Firaxis site (in diplomacy section)
_the village (city) Gewauga
_the american indian leader (?)

I'll give Iroquois a 90% of being in. If only we could identify the leader it would be 100%.

On the matter of the Persians

I think Persepolis is a clear indication I would be more comfortable if we have a leader face to go with that but I think the capital (and also Bactra) is enough proof that our old adversaries are in.

On the matter of the Spanish.

We have got the name of an undisputably Spanish city Salamanca.

On the matter of the Babylonians

Nippur was the second city name after Babylon if I remember correctly.

I just hope these city names in the screenshots weren't written in random...

So, so far we know that:

GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN
ENGLISH ARE IN
AZTECS ARE IN
EGYPTIANS ARE IN
INDIANS ARE IN
MONGOLS ARE IN
AMERICAN INDIANS ARE IN (90% the Iroquois - see the thread for hints)
PERSIANS ARE IN
SPANISH ARE IN
BABYLONIANS ARE IN

--------------------
JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_medi...ws%2Funits.jpg

VIKINGS (?) (see the boat at the abovementioned ULR. Viking longboat?)

------------------

Keep the info coming guys and girls

[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Gramphos]

As we are over 16 civs that information is either false or, we have taken someone not in the game.

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by vgriph on 05-17-2001 04:12 PM As we are over 16 civs that information is either false or, we have taken someone not in the game.

vgriph read this I posted earlier :

Note: Gamespot say that Civ 3 will have 16 civs.

BUT, Firaxis Programmer Mike Breitkreutz said on this forum that «Firaxis has made no official announcement concerning the number of civs that may or may not be in the game».

I take this at face value: No official announcement about the number of civs you can SELECT FROM - AND - no official statement about how many civs will simultanously playing in the game.

So I removed the line on my previous post that said "16 civs will be included

-----------

Now I think minor civs might come to play....

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! (He exclaimed in his best Horshack voice)
I'm a warlord!

Sorry.

[Locutus]

And the plot on the Iroquois thickens...

Onnotare (a city from that GameSpy screenshot) is also a Iroquois village (found a reference on http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html).

The city of Bunyar (again, from the screenshot) *might* be Iroquios as well. Apparently Paul Bunyar was some sort of legend from the Wisconsin/Michigan area, Iroquois territory (too many URLs to mention, just try your favorite search engine).

Oka is a famous Iroquois related name as well. The Canadians among us should certainly remember the Oka Crisis of 1990: Mohawks (an Iroquois tribe, in case you didn't know) vs Canada, fighting over a golf course in Oka, Quebec (http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/flashback/1990/).

I don't know about you guys, but it's pretty clear to me that the search for the Indian Tribe can end here...
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Bereta_Eder]

wow! Locutus, would you be interested in working for my private detective's office (assuming I had one!)

Dank u Locutus

If no one objects, I'll add the remaining 10% to the Iroquois (the only thing that might not click is the form of the huts behind the american indian leader - but this is really minor and not 100% certain I think. Besides the facts that point to Iroquois are now overwelming)

So, so far we know that:

GREEKS ARE IN
AMERICANS ARE IN
GERMANS ARE IN
CHINESE ARE IN
ROMANS ARE IN
FRENCH ARE IN
RUSSIANS ARE IN
ZULUS ARE IN
ENGLISH ARE IN
AZTECS ARE IN
EGYPTIANS ARE IN
INDIANS ARE IN
MONGOLS ARE IN
IROQUOIS ARE IN
PERSIANS ARE IN
SPANISH ARE IN
BABYLONIANS ARE IN

TOTAL:17 (which means we have to have at least one more civ to have an even number - if Civ 1 and Civ 2 practise of one color two civs will be implemented in Civ 3)

Note: The confirmation of some (very few) of this civs is based only on a city name that we have found in screenshots of Civ 3. All others have more than one hard evidence that confirms their inclusion in Civ 3.
--------------------


JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_medi...tp%3A%2F%2Fwww .fgnonline.com%2Fmedia%2Fpc%2Fnews%2Funits.jpg

VIKINGS (?) (see the boat at the abovementioned ULR. Viking longboat?)

------------------


[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 17, 2001).]

[Gramphos]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-17-2001 09:19 PM TOTAL:17 (which means we have to have at least one more civ to have an even number - if Civ 1 and Civ 2 practise of one color two civs will be implemented in Civ 3)

Civ 2 had three civs per color. (total 21)

quote: VIKINGS (?) (see the boat at the abovementioned URL. Viking longboat?)

As the Americans have that boat (the mapscreen again). In the lower right corner next to the city producing privateer. I think the ship may be a privateer or a trireme.

[Locutus]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-17-2001 09:19 PM wow! Locutus, would you be interested in working for my private detective's office (assuming I had one!)

Sure, send me an email or ICQ as soon as you start one

quote: Dank u Locutus

Graag gedaan, paiktis22. Sinds wanneer spreekt men in Griekenland Nederlands?

I think 16, 18 and 21 are the most logical numbers for the total number of civs now. If the Vikings and Japanese are indeed both in the game too (I personally think that's very premature to say at this point), my guess is that all Civ2 civs are still there.

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll go study some old screenshots for more possible clues

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by Locutus on 05-18-2001 10:30 AMmy guess is that all Civ2 civs are still there.

It has already been stated that there are only 16 civs getting the full Firaxis treatment (full diplomacy, leader, unique stuff [shudder]). Because of that all Civ2 civs couldn't make it into the game. Civ1 civs on the other hand could, but I don't remember the full number of Civ1 civs.

[senowen]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 05-18-2001 11:09 AM It has already been stated that there are only 16 civs getting the full Firaxis treatment (full diplomacy, leader, unique stuff [shudder]). Because of that all Civ2 civs couldn't make it into the game.

I thought the only place that this information came from was previewers, who I doubt saw the game even as it is going to be seen today at E3. The fact that Firaxis has stated time and again that they have made no official announcement yet gives me a feeling that the number is definately not 16, since it was after people said 16 that they made the announcement.

[Locutus]

SerapisIV,
The fact that we have fairly strong evidence on 17 civs already in combination with the points senowen makes lead me to believe that there could be more than 16 civs. But as I said 16, 18 and 21 are all three still options, I'm not excluding anything yet. But IF, and only IF there are more 18 civs, I think the civs will be identical to those in Civ2 (except for the Sioux -> Iroquois change that is).

Civ1 had 14 Civs BTW, all the above mentioned 'certain' civs minus Persia, Spain and Iroquois.

BTW, someone asked before if anyone knew an Iroquois leader, I found lots of info on Hiawatha, he apparently united the Iroquois tribes in the 15th/16th century. But AFAIK there's no decent picture/painting/whatever of the man available so it's not likely we'll ever be able to confirm that the screenshot of the Iroquois leader is indeed Hiawatha.

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-17-2001 04:02 PM On the matter of the Spanish. We have got the name of an undisputably Spanish city Salamanca.

Salamanca was also a Roman settlement in its Luisitania province.

A big complaint was the lack of more city names, in the Gamespy screenshot, they show Waukegan, a city in New Jersey of all places. In addition the Salamanca city has the color borders as Persepolis. I would definitely not say that the Spanish are a Civ3 civ yet. Which brings the total to 16, not 17. Therefore the arguements for all Civ2 (or >16) civs can not be confirmed yet

[senowen]

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV on 05-18-2001 01:35 PM Salamanca was also a Roman settlement in its Luisitania province. A big complaint was the lack of more city names, in the Gamespy screenshot, they show Waukegan, a city in New Jersey of all places. In addition the Salamanca city has the color borders as Persepolis. I would definitely not say that the Spanish are a Civ3 civ yet. Which brings the total to 16, not 17. Therefore the arguements for all Civ2 (or >16) civs can not be confirmed yet

This is all very true, plus I personally haven't seen enough evidence for the inclusion of Spain on the confirmed list. But for the reason mentioned in my above post, I still think the number is not 16, though I may have to eat my words at some point if I turn out to be wrong.

[SerapisIV]

I sure as hell would not object to more then 16, but I thik that 16 require a lot of effort as it is, in turns of giving them leaders, full diplo leader screenshots, city names, possibly unique units or attributes (if we're lucky not) and then playtesting them to make sure no bugs show up or that the uniqueness is balanced. Thats a lot of work. Look at most games with unique civs, AoK, etc., did they have as many as 16? I don't play the game but I don't think they have that many civs to playtest and debug. Debugging especially. 16 civs is a hell of a lot of effort from the start, adding more only adds more effort for a Firaxis team that only has a finite number of members

[Slax]

I'm sure that people planning scenerios will want the Japanese civ included (or at least the required graphics).

[Bereta_Eder]

vgriph,
Thank you very much for your correction about the number of civs in Civ 2. I got stuck on the 16 civs number question

Locutus,
I'm afraid «Dank U» is pretty much all the dutch I know , although I guess your question is if there are a lot of people speaking dutch in Greece? I'll keep you posted on my new detective business Thanks about all the further information.

Serapis,
Like senowen FIraxis made the clarification about the nnumber of the civs (saying it hasn't confirmed anything) after the gamespot review saw the light of day. I agree with your argument that each and every civ will take a much bigger amount of effort to be included in Civ 3 (uniques , leaders etc etc). Still the game is in development for 2 years now. Maybe they had time? I cannot possibly know.
Thank you on your observation about Salamanca, this is very crucial.

Another discomforting thing is the Waukegan city. I don't know it. Maybe only Americans know it. Why would they put it in a city name in a screenshot? Is it famous for any reason?
This actually increases my concerns that some city names were «tampered with» and did not 100% belong to the corresponding civ.

Slax, what you say is true. But for the needs of this thread we need concrete info to include a civ in the list.


Due to the new facts, I believe that a complete restructure of the list is necessairy.

Now next to the civs we must have the evidence that maybe proof of their inclusiion in civ. The civs with leaders and/or unique units are 100% in only IF we are absolutely sure about the identity of the leader or the unique.

So, so far we know that:

GREEKS ARE IN - City name (capital), possible unique unit (Hoplites*).
AMERICANS ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed), city names, unique unit (F15)
GERMANS ARE IN - Unique unit (Panzer). Multiple text references
CHINESE ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed)
ROMANS ARE IN - Leader, city name (capital), unique unit (Legion)
FRENCH ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed), dialogue window of the french
RUSSIANS ARE IN - Unique Unit (Mig)
ZULUS ARE IN - Unique Unit (Impi)
ENGLISH ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed)
AZTECS ARE IN - City names
EGYPTIANS ARE IN - Leader (100% pharaoh ), definite text reference
INDIANS ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed)
MONGOLS ARE IN - Leader (100% confirmed)
IROQUOIS ARE IN - Leader (100% indian ), city names, text references
PERSIANS ARE IN - City names (capitol)
SPANISH ARE IN - City name: Salamanca (which historically was once a Roman city)
BABYLONIANS ARE IN - City name


----------

JAPANESE (open for debate plz see the samurai(?) unit at http://viewer.fgnonline.com/fgn_medi...ws%2Funits.jpg

Vikings (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?

*Why do I say possible unique unit: In the screenshot Athens is building Hoplites. In greek «OPLITES» means "men-at-arms". This word is still in use today in Greece and it still means the same thing as it did in Ancient Greece.
[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 18, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 05-18-2001 03:53 PM Another discomforting thing is the Waukegan city. I don't know it. Maybe only Americans know it. Why would they put it in a city name in a screenshot? Is it famous for any reason? This actually increases my concerns that some city names were «tampered with» and did not 100% belong to the corresponding civ.

Waukegan is the city in Illinois, outside Chicago, I made a mistake. More then likely its where a Firaxis team member is from and put it in as an inside joke. Sort of like the faces of Firaxis member being advisors.

[Locutus]

quote: Salamanca was also a Roman settlement in its Luisitania province.

True, but it was called Salamantica in those days. Also, it wasn't a particularly important settlement, there's probably well over 100 other Roman citynames that would be more likely to be used for the Roman civ. I'd love to hear that the Spanish aren't in the game, not because I hate them or anything but because that would solve the one-civ-too-many 'problem', but Salamantica was fairly unimportant for the Romans while Salamanca was/is a very important city for the Spanish, it would be silly to use as a Roman cityname. I tried to find other town called Salamanca, but only came up with Mexican and Puerto Rican alternatives, not likely that the name refers to either.

Edit: never mind my second point, my mistake...

paiktis22,
Oh, ok. Close, I asked since when people in Greece spoke Dutch
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 18, 2001).]

[Locutus]

Waukegan: an Potawatomi Indian name. Not exactly Iroquois, but they originally lived in Iroquois territory but where pushed out and moved to Wisconsin/Illinois. Maybe Firaxis ran out of Iroquois city names and went for names of related tribes? Just like with Bunyan: related to Iroquois but not actually an Iroquois village in itself.

[Bereta_Eder]

Serapis,
let's hope these inside jokes don't mess up the LIST

Locutus,
very immpresive research as always (if we open this detective office we'll earn huge money - following cheating wives is so much easier than finding out about the correct civs )

I really sincerely hope that Firaxis corrects a glaring omission from the civ list in Civ II in Civ III.

Look at your globe today. Civ II properly included all of the largest ethno-cultural blocks which are still forces in our world today -- the English, American, Celtic, French, Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Zulu (for Black Africa), and Aztec/Sioux (for Native American) -- except ONE: the ARABS!

Please, Firaxis, this must be corrected in Civ III! You can't have too many built in civilizations. I hope that the CELTS are still included and that the ARABS, at least, will be added.

How easy will it be to customize your own civilizations if Firaxis should omit these or other very significant ones? I would hope that you could add custom civs and save them for you could always play with them if you want. I would also hope that Multiplayer permits a player to play with Custom Civs.

Finally, please design Civ III so that any of the Civs can be played together and not restricted by color groups! I could never have a game with the Celts and the Russians in Civ II because they were both arbitrarily defined as WHITE. Let us pick ANY civs to play with FIRST and then assign colors AFTER.

------------------
My most wanted Civ III civ which was also in Civ II: the CELTS!
My most wanted Civ III civ which was missing from Civ II: the ARABS!
[This message has been edited by Arator (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Locutus]

paiktis22,
Thanks; so true, so true...

Arator,
Well, no matter how many civs you include, people will always keep complaining they want more or different civs. I mean, in one CtP mod we indcluded 64 civs and still got complaint that certain civs were missing! I agree that the Arabs should definitely be included and the Celts would be a good addition too, but what about the Byzantines, the Dutch, the Bantu, the Mayans, the Incas, the Ottomans/Turks, the Kmer, the Jews, the Slavs, the Armenians, the Italians, the Portugese, the Parthians, the Polynesians, the Apache/Navajo, the Ethiopians, the Sumerians, the Minoans, etc, etc? There are so many civs, every selection you make is an arbitrary one. Because if you have not 16 but 32 civs, to include all/most of these, don't slightly 'less important' civs like the Belgians, the Mexicans, the Canadians or the Swedish 'deserve' a place as well?

I do agree though that making things customizable and non-color specific would go along way to deal with these problems, just as it has in CtP(2): in that game I (and many other CtP(2) players) adapted the list of civs to my own personal liking. It requires very little work and is very satisfying, esp. since you could choose your opponents with the Hotseat feature. Nothing cooler than to play with the same nations that fought in WW2 and kick some German butt on a random map or to re-enact the Mediterranean Ancient Age but let the Carthagians gang up with the Etruscans(sp?) and Egyptians and teach those pesky Romans a lesson (again, on a random map instead of in a scenario)
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Eli]

Translation of a report from the E3 expo made by the editor of one of the Israeli gaming sites, who was in the civ3 presentation :

"...option that allows chosing between 16 different nations(including Israel)..."


[This message has been edited by Eli (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Bereta_Eder]

[quote]Originally posted by Eli on 05-19-2001 08:36 AM
Translation of a report from the E3 expo made by the editor of one of the Israeli gaming sites, who was in the civ3 presentation :

"...option that allows chosing between 16 different nations(including Israel)..."




Eli this is very very importand. So, to make sure I understand correctly does this site says that:

_there will be 16 civs in the game period
_and that the Israelis are in 100%?

Eli, if the article includes any new screenshots can you give us the URL?


[This message has been edited by paiktis22 (edited May 19, 2001).]

[Poldavo]

quote: Originally posted by Locutus on 05-18-2001 06:28 PM True, but it was called Salamantica in those days. Also, it wasn't a particularly important settlement, there's probably well over 100 other Roman citynames that would be more likely to be used for the Roman civ. I'd love to hear that the Spanish aren't in the game, not because I hate them or anything but because that would solve the one-civ-too-many 'problem', but Salamantica was fairly unimportant for the Romans while Salamanca was/is a very important city for the Spanish, it would be silly to use as a Roman cityname. I tried to find other town called Salamanca, but only came up with Mexican and Puerto Rican alternatives, not likely that the name refers to either. Edit: never mind my second point, my mistake... paiktis22, Oh, ok. Close, I asked since when people in Greece spoke Dutch [This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 18, 2001).]

Brrr... I hope Spanish will be in Civ3! Resolving the debate about Salamanca and Spanish, there were two little Iberian settlements in the place where nowadays Salamanca is, called Helmantica and Salmantica, that were conquered by Carthaginian Hanibal armies around 220 a.C. Romans invaded these settlements 100 years after.

I think that, avoiding the official promises, Civ3 probably will have more than 16 civs. One of the problems of Civ1 and 2 was the limited number of countries to make realistic scenarios (remember the "neutral countries" in ww2 scenario or "Greek cities and allies" in the Roman scenario).

Or, may be, I will be able to eat my words.


------------------

[Locutus]

Eli,
No offense, but I seriously doubt that, that must be a mistake. I'm more than willing to believe that there are 16 civs and also that the Israeli (or Jews, whatever) are a civ in the game but both at the same time? I don't think so. Sure, the Jews were an important civ but not as important as Spain, Phoenicia/Carthage, Persia, Japan or even Arabia (I hope that doesn't offend you too much). I think that all Civ2 nations are much more likely to be included than Israel. Maybe Judea or Jerusalem is in as a Roman or Persian city but I'd need very convincing evidence to believe that Israel as a civ is in.

Poldavo,
I do think the Spanish *should* be in as they were once the biggest empire on the planet, but the 16 number is the only solid number we heard so far and the evidence on Spain is weak, so I fear the worst.

Yes, I'm aware of the history of Salamanca, I didn't see the other settlement and Hannibal's conquest as very relevant in this case but you are right of course.

The total number of civs will have no effects on scenario makers, it's the number of civs that can be played with at the same time that matters for us, but that's a different story altogether. Now I'm spoiled with CtP's 32 civs at the same time I sure hope that Civ3 will have at least as many, preferably even more (offically or unofficially). It may sound unbelievable to Civ2 players but in some cases even 32 isn't enough (I came to the conclusion that for a great 20th century world scenario you need 35-40 civs and a really, really big map)
[This message has been edited by Locutus (edited May 19, 2001).]

[SerapisIV]

We don't know anything about minor civs. The phrase was used in a preview, never elaborated and hasn't been mentioned by Firaxis at all. Apolytoners, have thrown out ideas of them being barbarians or civs with weaker AI and no full diplomacy, but again, Firaxis has never said anything for or against minor civs