POLL 21: Windowed mode? - Page 2

Koyaanisqatsi · May 5, 2001, 13:34

In general, DX performs much worse in windowed mode than in full screen. It will work...it'll just work slowly.

In addition to that, there's the technical problem that, if you allow your window to be resized, you have to build an interface that can be easily resized with it and still be functional. This isn't as easy as it sounds, especially if you want to keep it looking nice. It would also make the interface harder for us to customize when we go to make mods.

Alt-Tab works just fine. I'd suggest that they drop the 256 color thing though, since Alt-Tabbing from within a DX game doesn't switch color depths very well most of the time. Oh, yeah, and because 256 colors are just pathetic.

Ralf · May 5, 2001, 14:32

quote:

Originally posted by Bell on 05-05-2001 01:34 PM
In general, DX performs much worse in windowed mode than in full screen. It will work...it'll just work slowly.

I guess it all comes down how different the game actually performs comparing Window-mode with fullscreen. If Firaxis really dont think they can make the game run slick, efficient and non-sluggish in windows-mode - also on a relatively modest P3-500Mhz machine - then perhaps fullscreen is the best way to go. I certainly keep my fingers crossed for Windows-mode, but if push comes to shove...

quote:

In addition to that, there's the technical problem that, if you allow your window to be resized, you have to build an interface that can be easily resized with it and still be functional. This isn't as easy as it sounds, especially if you want to keep it looking nice.

Hmmm! Well, that IS something to think about. Perhaps all these added potential problems just isnt worth the trouble after all...

quote:

Alt-Tab works just fine. I'd suggest that they drop the 256 color thing though, since Alt-Tabbing from within a DX game doesn't switch color depths very well most of the time.

256 colors only? From there have you got that piece of information? I thought that (at least) 16-bit was pretty much standard these days.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 05, 2001).]

markusf · May 5, 2001, 14:36

quote:

Anyway, I guess that answers the question. Windows-mode is apparently NOT incompatible with the DirectX technology. Good news!

Since when? All you do is set a flag when using direct x that says full screen or windowed mode. Although some 3dfx cards don't like it(like 5%), thats the only problem.

Ralf · May 5, 2001, 14:41

quote:

Originally posted by markusf on 05-05-2001 02:36 PM
Since when? All you do is set a flag when using direct x that says full screen or windowed mode. Although some 3dfx cards don't like it(like 5%), thats the only problem.

Forgive us our ignorance.

I/we didnt know it was that easy.

markusf · May 5, 2001, 14:41

Also whats all this BS about speed? Its civ for crying out loud. Its not Starcraft or total anhilation. Where you can have over 600 units moving at the same time with massive explosions etc etc. We will move moving 1!!!! unit at a time. Now unless your an absolutly horrible programer there is no way you should see a speed difference between fullscreen mode and windowed. in a game like starcraft i could see the possibility.(massive armies etc moving at the same time and talking over tcp/ip) but not civ!

BeBro · May 5, 2001, 15:33

quote:

Its not Starcraft or total anhilation. Where you can have over 600 units moving at the same time with massive explosions etc etc. We will move moving 1!!!! unit at a time.

Good point. Yes, that is definately an advantage against RTS games.

And ToT was in 16bit Color, 256 colors would be a step back (but I think it can look still fine, AoK had also 256 colors and was nice)...

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Civ2000 hosted by CivII Universum

Koyaanisqatsi · May 5, 2001, 17:37

quote:

Originally posted by markusf on 05-05-2001 02:41 PM
Also whats all this BS about speed? Its civ for crying out loud. Its not Starcraft or total anhilation. Where you can have over 600 units moving at the same time with massive explosions etc etc. We will move moving 1!!!! unit at a time. Now unless your an absolutly horrible programer there is no way you should see a speed difference between fullscreen mode and windowed. in a game like starcraft i could see the possibility.(massive armies etc moving at the same time and talking over tcp/ip) but not civ!

Depends on how the graphics engine is written...remember SMAC? SMAC (also, this is where the reference to 256 colors came from, SMAC ran at 8 bit color. I haven't seen anything at all about the color depth in CivIII) had horrible video performance, even if there is only one unit moving at a time. I had assumed that the AI was where the problem was, but there's an appreciable difference running SMAC on different video cards. That's why they went to the low-res units. Remember, CivIII is coming from Firaxis, and Firaxis didn't do CivII or it's clones/add ons. Firaxis did SMAC, and SMAC's graphics engine quite frankly sucked.

Gramphos · May 6, 2001, 00:04

I think most Direct X routines may be used both in Full screen and in a Window. However are some unique for full screen and some unique for windows. But I'm not 100% sure.

May 6, 2001, 04:21

Primary reason to have windows mode:

Right now, I have IE open to fool around here. I am working (sort of) on my dissertation, and kicking some mongol ass in Civ2. You just can't do that with CTP and SMAC.

When Civ3 comes out, I will still be working on this dissertation, will feel the need to whine about stuff on Apolyton (not to mention raz everyone opposed to civ specific units if they turn out well), and will play Civ3 all night every night (need more coffee). Please window it!

Kc7mxo · May 6, 2001, 15:11

erm. is windowed mode really something to be so concerned about? most of the games i have don't mind being minimized, and unless the save times are horrendous, like in black and white, i dont see why anyone would have a problem quiting when they're done playing civ. just seems like a rather silly thing to whine about to me.

Gramphos · May 6, 2001, 15:47

quote:

Originally posted by Kc7mxo on 05-06-2001 03:11 PM
I dont see why anyone would have a problem quiting when they're done playing civ.

If you are done with it you may quit. This is correct, but if you are waiting for your turn in a multiplayer game you can not just turn off the game. And minimizing it would mean that you might miss your turn. No windowed it shall be!

Darkknight · May 6, 2001, 18:51

I'm confused you can still Alt-tab out of CTP2 whats the problem? it doesn't matter whether it's windowed or not??

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" Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few "

Ralf · May 7, 2001, 14:50

quote:

Originally posted by Darkknight on 05-06-2001 06:51 PM
I'm confused you can still Alt-tab out of CTP2 whats the problem? it doesn't matter whether it's windowed or not??

Well, I once promoted "windowed Civ-3" with added hooks for game-interface skins: Is Civ-3 game-interface with SKINS a good idea?

eNo · May 7, 2001, 16:05

Darkknight and others who don't understand why ALT-Tab'ing a fullscreen program is bad:

ALT-Tab'ing tends to result in one or several of the following:
1) Crashes the program
2) Crashes the computer
3) The computer starts going really really slow
4) Hard drive starts to "thrash"
5) Colours get screwed up (inverted?)
6) Mouse pointer/keyboard is not "captured" by appropriate program

I think I'm missing a couple but what I've mentioned can happen whether your getting out of your fullscreen program or getting back in.

For people running ICQ or hiding the game behind homework when parents walk in, fullscreen mode is just a pain in the [BLANK].
[This message has been edited by eNo (edited May 07, 2001).]

Roman · May 7, 2001, 16:11

quote:

Originally posted by eNo on 05-07-2001 04:05 PM
ALT-Tab'ing that tends to result in one or several of the following:
1) Crashes the program
2) Crashes the computer
3) The computer starts going really really slow
4) Hard drive starts to "thrash"
5) Colours get screwed up (inverted?)
6) Mouse pointer/keyboard is not "captured" by appropriate program

I completely agree with this list. All of those happened to me at some point.

Gramphos · May 7, 2001, 16:16

quote:

Originally posted by eNo on 05-07-2001 04:05 PM
I think I'm missing a couple but what I've mentioned can happen whether your getting out of your fullscreen program or getting back in.

It may also frees the game that you leave until you are back and in MP that may result in crashing 6 other computers also.

quote:

For people running ICQ or hiding the game behind homework when parents walk in, fullscreen mode is just a pain in the [BLANK].

You want F5 back as Boss key, do you?

Jarouik · May 8, 2001, 02:58

I agree with the above posters that a full-screen mode is less than desirable. Although, if Civ III programmers implement it correctly, it should under no circumstances crash the game or computer, and I think that even thrashing the hard drive is due to the game taking up so much memory that the swap file has to be used when switching to other programs, so this is not a feature of full-screen per se, there are other negative aspects about it in comparison with windowed mode. Many of them I pointed out in my earlier post in another thread, which read thus:

I, for one, rarely or never play multiplayer Civilization, but would definitely want to have Civ 3 in a window anyway. All those countless hours of single player Civ 2 were partly made possible for me by the fact that the game is easily available and can be left on all the time while I surf the net, read email, use ICQ, listen to music and whatever else I might be doing - if the game e.g. changes system-wide video settings in any way, like SMAC, it would render other programs so ugly as to be unusable.

If you can't have it in a window, it had better be full-screen so that it is easily minimized and maximized and alt-tabbed out of and into like most games without affecting any other programs, not the way SMAC does it changing the whole system to 256 colors. A window, however, is the best option, since I have two displays and I love nothing more than being able to have any other programs open on my secondary display and clicking and using them any way I like while Civilization is still visible and open on my primary display - if you alt-tab out of a full-screen game, it will no longer be visible at all!

And yes, I like the fact in Civ II that I can cover the window with an Outlook Express window at work whenever somebody comes into my room

markusf · May 8, 2001, 16:35

Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS "Yes I just love windows."

well looks like we have a supporter

Hopefully it gets implimented now...

Ralf · May 8, 2001, 16:55

[QUOTE]Originally posted by markusf on 05-08-2001 04:35 PM
Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS "Yes I just love windows."

-------------------- Edited:

The guy who voted wasnt Jeffrey Morris at all. He voted under false name.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited May 12, 2001).]

Darkknight · May 11, 2001, 20:20

Yeah it happens in a lot of games but some games like CTP2 never did a thing if I alt-tabbed them they were fine. B+W goes a bit weird when you alt-tab the cursor turns into a square of various colours.
I would rather have it windowed but if they make sure that alt-tabbing doesn't cause any problems it's not too bad if they have it un-windowed.

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" Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few "

meriadoc · May 11, 2001, 21:22

I've played Civ2 and CTP enough that I too feel that Civ3 should be able to be run in a window instead of full screen. The major reason is simply that most of us like to run other programs at the same time as Civ3. I may not ever play a multiplayer game, but I do like to run AOLIM in the background or watch TV via my TV tuner card. Both of those pretty much require that Civ3 be in a window of its own. So therefore, I am casting my vote for a window.

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The Electronic Hobbit

Paul · May 12, 2001, 06:18

Do we have a fake Jeffrey Morris here? I just accidentally had my cursor over his name in the comments and noticed that the link to his profile didn't have a plus sign between Jeffrey and Morris like with other people who have multi-part names. So I clicked the link and this person is a settler with zero posts. It looks like we have an imposter here.

Gramphos · May 12, 2001, 18:01

quote:

Originally posted by Paul on 05-12-2001 06:18 AM
Do we have a fake Jeffrey Morris here? I just accidentally had my cursor over his name in the comments and noticed that the link to his profile didn't have a plus sign between Jeffrey and Morris like with other people who have multi-part names. So I clicked the link and this person is a settler with zero posts. It looks like we have an imposter here.

Damned imposter

, using hard blankspaces (#160) in the name, I really hoped for Windows after his vote. I hope that MarkG will ban him.

Darkknight · May 12, 2001, 22:20

I just got Airfield inc. It has an option for windowed or fullscreen at the start maybe they could do something like that??

Shane

Darkknight · May 12, 2001, 22:31

JESUS he is fake when I clicked on his profile I came up with netckc's which is:

Date Registered: May 08, 2001
Status: Settler
Total Posts: 0
Current Email: Not available.
Homepage:
Occupation: Student
Location: Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Interests: PC Gaming
ICQ Number: 36339491
Private Messages: Send netckc a Private Message

BAN HIM!!!!!

He really thought noone would notice

JosefGiven · May 13, 2001, 11:14

quote:

...Damned imposter , using hard blankspaces (#160) in the name, I really hoped for Windows after his vote. I hope that MarkG will ban him...

...JESUS he is fake when I clicked on his profile I came up with netckc's...

Oh, this really is appaling! Who could betray us in such a way?

I demand the culprit be banned with maximum ritual disgrace. Whoever you are, never darken these forums again!! Shame on you!!

[This message has been edited by JosefGiven (edited May 13, 2001).]

Ming · May 14, 2001, 08:42

There is a reason why Jeffrey Morris's profile shows 0 posts... The "fake" log on was caught quickly and disabled

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Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

MarkG · May 31, 2001, 04:21

Civ3: Windowed mode?
Option	Votes / Percentage
Yes	160 / 68%
No	42 / 17%
Dont care	32 / 13%
Total Votes: 234
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