Apolyton June Tournament

nbarclay · June 4, 2002, 04:55

Here's the set-up: Monarch setting, standard size map, archipelego with maximum water, other map settings random. (Don't worry, it didn't come out warm and wet.

No barbarians, so the only thing you have to guard your cities against is other civs. (Also, there aren't any goodie huts, so don't waste your time looking for them.)

We're playing Egypt (random, lucky in my opinion) against five random computer opponents. That leaves lots of unclaimed islands around the world. I made sure there were either zero or one other civs on our starting land mass, but I won't say which since I didn't know which it would be when I started. I also made sure the starting position was reasonably good, although it's not as good as some might hope for. A good start is definitely important on this map.

A few general tips given the basic nature of the game:

1) The Great Lighthouse is a HUGE advantage in a water world. With the Lighthouse and good galley exploration, you can meet the other civs early and either sell contact or (possibly a whole lot better) maintain a monopoly on contact for many centuries.

2) Keep in mind that there is at most one other civ on your land mass when planning your research. (That's not always true in this type of map, but having more than that would be against the spirit of the game I was trying to set up.) If it's zero, you won't be able to buy tech at all until someone gets mapmaking and you contact other civs (which could be really rough if someone else gets the Great Lighthouse and doesn't bother to find you). And if it's one, you still can't get the discounts from having a bunch of AIs know the tech you're wanting to buy; at least not early in the game. On the plus side, the AIs won't have a lot of contact with each other early in the game either, so "tech whoring" won't be the problem it usually is. If there is another civ sharing your land mass, research will be a head-to-head competition, and one would certainly hope you have the better head!

3) The Pyramids are an instant golden age for Egypt; that's good if you want a golden age, but it's something you want to watch if you don't want your golden age too early. Also note that the Pyramids can be a good prebuild for the Great Lighthouse; just keep in mind that the Great Lighthouse is a lot cheaper.

4) Remember that War Chariots can't move on mountains without roads.

5) My trick for exploring with galleys and the Great Lighthouse is to find an area where "sea" tiles stretch out unusually far in a particular direction, end one turn for the galley positioned on the edge, and next turn head straight out two tiles into the ocean. If I see sea on the other side within range, I make the crossing. Otherwise, I reverse course back to safety. Also, there's no reason not to spend as much time in the ocean as you safely can while sailing around looking for potential crossing points. (Exploring without the Great Lighthouse is a LOT tougher because sea tiles aren't safe and you can only move three tiles instead of four.)

6) At first glance, all the ocean around may make the idea of a domination victory seem unrealistic. But with AI research potentially running a lot slower than normal, earlier-game offensive units can maintain their advantage a lot longer than they would in other settings. Similarly, it's a lot easier to get a big tech lead that lets you overwhelm the AI's inferior technology. That makes domination a real possibility, or conquest if there ends up being lots of land no one ever bothers to settle.

7) With harbors, even a city with a bad location can get pretty good sized and generate a good bit of gold as long as it's on the coast.

I'll start a separate spoilers thread later, or someone else is welcome to if they have spoilers worth posting before I get around to starting it. General tips (not specific to experiences in this particular game) are welcome in this thread.

Deadline for submission is approximately July 5, but if someone lets me know they're not quite finished, I may hold things open a little longer. I'd rather get the extra entry or two than be a stickler for details.

Good luck, everyone!

Nathan

Jawa Jocky · June 4, 2002, 14:42

another note about war chariots.

They can't go into jungle either
and
They can't be upgraded to horsemen
and
They trigger an golden age (which I usually avoid, but maybe helpful to complete early wonders {including great lighthouse})

I'm looking forward to starting this evening

nbarclay · June 5, 2002, 18:24

For anyone who hasn't thought of it, one potential way of getting around the terrain movement limits of war chariots is to use galleys to carry them around the impassible terrain. Of course if you're landing in hostile territory, including defensive units in your landing force doesn't hurt.

Nathan

ChaotikVisions · June 6, 2002, 13:03

How do touraments work exactly? We play the game you posted until we win/lose then post our last save somewhere?

Inverse Icarus · June 6, 2002, 19:04

yes. in this particular game the impassible terrain is quite annoying.

Inverse Icarus · June 6, 2002, 19:10

spolier thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=52222

nbarclay · June 6, 2002, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by ChaotikVisions
How do touraments work exactly? We play the game you posted until we win/lose then post our last save somewhere?

More specifically, submit a save from the turn before you finish. This can be either an autosave or, if you can predict when you will finish closely enough to go to the trouble, a save from right before you end your turn. Post the result to the spoilers/results thread.

A couple things I regard as cheating:

1) Adding workers to cities and then using them to pop rush. (Pop rushing using native population is fine.)

2) Flagrantly abusing Right of Passage agreements. I've given some thought to where to draw the line between legitimate violations of treaty similar to what the AI sometimes engages in and genuine abuse, and I think the ideas below fit the bill. If anyone wants to suggest amendments, I'm willing to listen. (I have something of a handicap in that I almost never make such agreements and therefore don't have personal experience with the AI breaking them.)

2a) My understanding is that when the AI breaks a ROP agreement, it only gets the benefit of the ROP for its first attacker; it attacks with the first one and then has to live with normal movement for the rest of its attackers. Assuming that that is the case, I think it is fair to expect human players to live by the same restriction. (In other words, don't move a bunch of units into position under the ROP and then use their remaining movement to attack the same turn.)

2b) Units moving through foreign territory under a ROP areement should at least act like they have a legitimate purpose trying to get somewhere. They shouldn't move anywhere that has no rational purpose other than setting up to possibly attack a supposed ally. (Note especially that there is never an excuse to park troops deep inside another nation's borders when railroads could take you to your legitimate destination instantly.)

If someone has seen the AI behave in ways that would violate these rules, I'll consider it tolerable for human players to break them in similar ways. Otherwise, I think these rules reflect the limits of what a nation could reasonably expect to get away with in prepositioning troops to attack an alleged ally under the guise of a Right of Passage agreement. (Although as I said, if anyone disagrees, the issue is open for discussion.)

Nathan

BillChin · June 7, 2002, 10:02

Remember the basic basics: no reloading, no restarting, avoiding the spoiler thread until after a player is well into the game. Enjoy.

watorrey · June 8, 2002, 05:43

I have seen the AI abuse ROPs in many games.
Some more memorable ones:

The ever popular 'drop a shipful of units off next to a city and attack next turn'.

Make me pay for a ROP (when all others pay me) and attack next turn with a knight at a lightly defended inner city. (The ROP is broken and the war continues normally.)

An alliance with a ROP and when i take too many cities close to thier territory, they sneak attack me with thier units that are near my newly taken cities.

I am building a RR route thru thier territory because my empire is on both sides of them. Suddenly they attack my workers and i happen to 5 times thier size.

In any event, there is a diplomatic penalty to pay when you declare war with your units in thier territory. Any other civs will not lightly agree to a ROP in the future. I don't abuse ROPs in the way some do, but i have no problem with ppl that do it.

nbarclay · June 9, 2002, 00:47

I don't have a problem with people doing the sorts of things to the AI that you describe it doing to players. But I think there's an order of magnitude difference between that type of violation and using an ROP agreement to position a large percentage of one's available offensive forces outside key rival cities and then take out most or all of the other civ's core before it gets any chance to respond. I'm not convinced that the game balance takes that kind of massive betrayal into consideration. And it certainly doesn't strike me as realistic.

Nathan

BillChin · June 12, 2002, 10:42

For personal reasons I am taking a break from Civ III and all the Civ boards.

A big thanks to Nathan for handling this month's tourney game. All the best.