Alberta is rich with oil, but what has it got to show for it?

[faded glory]

Is the canadian alliance that fragile? I knew Quebec had a strong independence movement, but Alberta too? Perhaps they'll opt to join the Union.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by faded glory
Is the canadian alliance that fragile? I knew Quebec had a strong independence movement, but Alberta too? Perhaps they'll opt to join the Union.

a) It's called Confederation. The Canadian Alliance is a rightist political party

b) Right now the Albertan separatist movement is probably headed by Asher...

It doesn't really seem to be significant in terms of actual possibilities. I wouldn't be surprised if you could find 10 % support for separatism in quite a few American states...

Whether or not this will eventually have some impact on the Canadian political landscape is another question, though. If there were a strong enough separatist movement in Alberta to actually get some members elected to parliament then we might see an even further collapse of the Right, as the Canadian Alliance would become (or split into) a more definitively regionalist party.

[faded glory]

good point, alaska doesnt seem to like washington dc for the same reason alberta doesnt like the rest of canada. Alaska wants to drill everything, but washington doesnt let it.

[faded glory]

Btw alaska has a strong independence movement.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
Oh Asher

The ideology of youth . . . quoting facts and figures about events you were never part of and passing judgements on things you have never experienced ( note: citing what your father has done does not help your arguments) . . . But there were several interesting points so I thought I would address a couple of things you said in the various threads and just make a few random observations as well

Youth has nothing to do with it.
I've read textbooks, I've seen the charts of facts and figures, and I've heard from many of people who personally lived through it. From there I feel I can make a judgement on it, and I really hate it when the older people around here act like unless you lived through something you can't comment on it.

1. Do you realize how many people that live in Alberta come from other provinces and still have a strong emotional attachment to those provinces and would not like the idea of their frinds and families being in a separate country ?? I recently came here and I like the low taxes but ceasing to be Canadian I work at a firm with about 100 people in Calgary-- my rough estimate of the number that were born in Alberta would be less than 25 and I think thats typical-- do you seriously expect these people would abandon Canada over MONEY ???

Most people over 25 aren't born in Alberta. Simple as that. My parents were from Quebec and Ontario, moved here after graduating university. Never looked back. All of our Canadian relatives still live in those two provinces.

I do believe people will abandon Canada over just "money". Whether you won't is kinda irrelevant, because you don't speak for everyone. After all, this has happened before when Canada and the US both gained separation from the UK.

You're acting like you're cutting off all contact if Alberta leaves Canada. Who cares if we share the same federal government? What difference does that make?

2. Your arguments seem to be generally to the far right and ignore anything other than the financial aspects of things. For example, the main reason the BC offshore has not been developed (oil) has been environmental concerns while yopu seem to think it was some sort of leftist mismanagement. I'm no fan of the NDP but taking some care of the environment does not necessarily strike me as a bad thing

Those environmental concerns are a direct result of the NDP government. There actual environmental damage of offshore drilling is extremely minimal.

4. However, to attribute Alberta's wealth to good government is somewhat misleading-- its easy to govern when there are billions in direct royalties coming in

I've always maintained that it's a combination of good government AND having the direct royalties coming in. An NDP government, for example, would have never even considered establishing the Heritage Fund and making it illegal to run a deficit.

5. To attribute some of the smaller percentages I have seen attribute to the oil and gas industry is again misleading. Apart from direct royalties tehre are the multitudes of spin-offs that come from having the industry headquartered in calgary-- I am a petro,leum lawyer and if the oil and gas industry dries up here (hypothetical) then I doubt I would be here for long. . . Alberta is working hard at diversification but Calgary is still very much an oil town.

Oil is still a huge part, but it's not that large of a part. My father works in the oil industry as an exec with a major oil company (he hates you lawyers, btw ), but that's just because he's been working for that company since the late 70s after graduation. My mother, for example, is a CA and works for a large retail chain. Most of my friend's parents do nothing related to oil -- from owning their own franchises to working for the government. There are still tons and tons of jobs in Calgary especially related to the oil field, because the demand has never decreased for it. Both the oil industry and the rest of the economy is growing -- but everything else is growing at a far faster rate in Alberta.

7. All your arguments seem based on money and a country and the issues they face are much more than that. Its all well and good to debate transfer payments and tax rates but when the reality of an unemployment statistic is a 53 year old fisherman, who after 35 years in an industry working back breaking hours, faces having to move from his town of 200 . . . unable to sell his house etc because the fishery has collapsed. . . . well lets just say its not an easy decision-- then to have some 18 year old silver-spoon Albertan kid assume he is LAZY-- not good

If he's perpetually unemployed and doesn't feel like moving to a better job market -- what else would you call him? Would you call him couragous for mooching off the generosity of successful provinces?

I just wonder if your attitudes will be so cut and dried 10 years from now , particularly if you or Alberta face economic hardship. because when I listen to you Asher, I hear facts and figures and " its our oil" but I never hear anything about what a country or a province is other than the MONEY. I hope my country will always be more than that. AS for you, perhaps you will emigrate to the States as , after all, pay is higher and taxes are lower.

Well, as it is right now, it looks like I'll be moving back to the States again after college anyway. Definitely will if the liberals are still in power by the time I graduate. If the CA get in power I may stick around and see how it turns out...

I really enjoy the argument about how it's not about money. What is government, about? Everything in the government revolves around money. They need money to do what they want. They need money to survive.

So what more is the country other than money? What benefit does Alberta have for staying with a country that drains OUR money and resources while at the same time annoying the residents of the province with political gaffes that never end?

[Asher]

Originally posted by faded glory
good point, alaska doesnt seem to like washington dc for the same reason alberta doesnt like the rest of canada. Alaska wants to drill everything, but washington doesnt let it.

We can drill what we want. We have the rights to our oil.

The problem is Canada takes our money and doesn't even say "thank you".

[Starchild]

when Canada and the US both gained separation from the UK

The US gained independence. You got given it. If it wasn't for our benevolence and generosity, every dime of your oil would be devoted to washing the White Cliffs of Dover.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Starchild
The US gained independence. You got given it. If it wasn't for our benevolence and generosity, every dime of your oil would be devoted to washing the White Cliffs of Dover.

Is this British humor?

[faded glory]

shutup, before he says anymore.....

[faded glory]

I think he was refferring to all that oil England set up offshore durign ww2 to scortch the invading huns. Err.....Canada gave alot more than oil for the british cause. Try 50,000 men at Dieppe, , Juno beach, Tobruk and Market Garden..

[Starchild]

Actually no. If I had billions in Canadian oil money to play with, I would whitewash cliffs with it and pay to have the ocean dyed a more pleasing form of blue.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Starchild
Actually no. If I had billions in Canadian oil money to play with, I would whitewash cliffs with it and pay to have the ocean dyed a more pleasing form of blue.

Oh my god!
Starchild = Alexa McDonough!

[KrazyHorse]

Hey! Don't speak ill of those whose political career ended today...

[Asher]

What?!
She retired?

[KrazyHorse]

We can save it for tomorrow. Even the Alliance was kind enough tio give her a standing ovation...

[KrazyHorse]

Jesus, Asher. What cave are you living in?

I think we've all seen this coming for a year or so...

[Asher]

Who is replacing her?

Edit: KH, nobody at all cares about the NDP in Alberta. NDP == Commie Bastards, remember? And I haven't seen the news today yet.

[KrazyHorse]

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/06/05/alexa_resign020605

[KrazyHorse]

Nobody, until September.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Asher

Youth has nothing to do with it.
I've read textbooks, I've seen the charts of facts and figures, and I've heard from many of people who personally lived through it. From there I feel I can make a judgement on it, and I really hate it when the older people around here act like unless you lived through something you can't comment on it.

Never said you couldn't comment on it and in fact I addressed your comments. I likewise hate that an 18 year old thinks that talking to a few people and studying stuff in books can substitute for life experience. I accept that you can have valid opinions. Can you accept that people who have lived through stuff might actually have learned things through that experience that you simply have not learned yet??

Originally posted by Asher
Most people over 25 aren't born in Alberta. Simple as that. My parents were from Quebec and Ontario, moved here after graduating university. Never looked back. All of our Canadian relatives still live in those two provinces.[

I do believe people will abandon Canada over just "money". Whether you won't is kinda irrelevant, because you don't speak for everyone. After all, this has happened before when Canada and the US both gained separation from the UK.

You're acting like you're cutting off all contact if Alberta leaves Canada. Who cares if we share the same federal government? What difference does that make?

people who have died for this country might beg to differ. As well, I have always believed that a country is more than just a government that divvies the loot. And whether I will or will not abandon canada is extremely relevant as i will have the same vote on the issue as you would

Originally posted by Asher
Those environmental concerns are a direct result of the NDP government. There actual environmental damage of offshore drilling is extremely minimal.

This quote is funny. An NDP government does not create the environemental concerns. I agree that offshore drilling can be perfomed with measures in place to mitigate impacts but to say such impacts are " extremely minimal" is plain WRONG. Spills ( and spill incidents WILL occurr), disposal of drill cuttings , the flaring of natural gas and the disruption of fisheries habitat are all impacts and MUST be addressed. I ( not my dad) have worked for both a government petroleum regulator and on behalf of oil companies on this issue and the environmental impacts are there, are possibly catostrophic if mismanaged and MUST be addressed.

Originally posted by Asher
I've always maintained that it's a combination of good government AND having the direct royalties coming in. An NDP government, for example, would have never even considered establishing the Heritage Fund and making it illegal to run a deficit.

Tough to make this judgement call since it is easy to govern well with a surplus of funds. Your second assumption is pure speculation but probably based on good assumptions given most NDP policies ( note that I don't vote for the NDP either LOL)

Originally posted by Asher
Oil is still a huge part, but it's not that large of a part. My father works in the oil industry as an exec with a major oil company (he hates you lawyers, btw ), but that's just because he's been working for that company since the late 70s after graduation. My mother, for example, is a CA and works for a large retail chain. Most of my friend's parents do nothing related to oil -- from owning their own franchises to working for the government. There are still tons and tons of jobs in Calgary especially related to the oil field, because the demand has never decreased for it. Both the oil industry and the rest of the economy is growing -- but everything else is growing at a far faster rate in Alberta.

I find that this argument doesn't adress the ideas of spin offs in the community. Without oil there is less money, less affluent people and the service industries reduce quickly. Its like the guy in a mining town that talks about how diversified they are with 5 accounting firms, 4 law firms, a big government office, two shopping malls and a car factory. Of everything I just listed, perhaps only the car factory would be unaffected if the mine closed.

You forget, that I come from Newfoundland and have seen the effect of even less than a thousand oil jobs-- The spin offs into law, accounting real estate and construction are amazing. Without oil, count on it, Calgary would be decimated.

Originally posted by Asher
If he's perpetually unemployed and doesn't feel like moving to a better job market -- what else would you call him? Would you call him couragous for mooching off the generosity of successful provinces?

NO and I set up the fact situation such that he was not lazy or a mooch. he had worked in an industry for more than 35 years only to have it collapse. His home and entire life are there . . . To expect him to blithely pop across the country . . . many of these fishermen are making just that move but I was just trying to inject a little humanity into your facts and figures argument . . . Wev are talking people and such moves are never easy .

Originally posted by Asher
Well, as it is right now, it looks like I'll be moving back to the States again after college anyway. Definitely will if the liberals are still in power by the time I graduate. If the CA get in power I may stick around and see how it turns out...

It sounds as if you have little or no attachment to this country so do whatever you feel is best for you .

Originally posted by Asher
I really enjoy the argument about how it's not about money. What is government, about? Everything in the government revolves around money. They need money to do what they want. They need money to survive.

Government is about spending and collecting money but I don't see that a country is just about that .

Originally posted by Asher
So what more is the country other than money? What benefit does Alberta have for staying with a country that drains OUR money and resources while at the same time annoying the residents of the province with political gaffes that never end?

I hope you never are in a position of power over real people if money is all you can see.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Flubber
Never said you couldn't comment on it and in fact I addressed your comments. I likewise hate that an 18 year old thinks that talking to a few people and studying stuff in books can substitute for life experience. I accept that you can have valid opinions. Can you accept that people who have lived through stuff might actually have learned things through that experience that you simply have not learned yet??

Care to tell me what I'm missing out on, then?

people who have died for this country might beg to differ. As well, I have always believed that a country is more than just a government that divvies the loot. And whether I will or will not abandon canada is extremely relevant as i will have the same vote on the issue as you would

Those people that have died for this country, are probably rolling in their graves right now with the current mess.

Those people died for the idea of the country. For a country that is a democracy, that respects eachothers rights. Not a country that breaks its own constitution to make a few bucks at the expense of a province that contains little votes.

Those people who died would still have died protecting those ideas, but would see them better materialized under a government that suits our conditions. Let's face it, Canada is too diverse to have a powerful federal government like we've got today.

This quote is funny. An NDP government does not create the environemental concerns. I agree that offshore drilling can be perfomed with measures in place to mitigate impacts but to say such impacts are " extremely minimal" is plain WRONG. Spills ( and spill incidents WILL occurr), disposal of drill cuttings , the flaring of natural gas and the disruption of fisheries habitat are all impacts and MUST be addressed. I ( not my dad) have worked for both a government petroleum regulator and on behalf of oil companies on this issue and the environmental impacts are there, are possibly catostrophic if mismanaged and MUST be addressed.

There are already oil tankers flowing back and forth along the BC coast. So adding in the remote possibility of spills is pretty pointless, especially when you take into account the mandatory design of new tankers with all those different hulls...

And how do you plan to "address" those environmental concerns?

It's like banning traffic in a province on the chance you might hit a bird with a car sometimes.

Tough to make this judgement call since it is easy to govern well with a surplus of funds. Your second assumption is pure speculation but probably based on good assumptions given most NDP policies ( note that I don't vote for the NDP either LOL)

Has there ever been an NDP government in the history of Canada who even has the word "save", "balanced budget", or "surplus" in their vocabulary?

I find that this argument doesn't adress the ideas of spin offs in the community. Without oil there is less money, less affluent people and the service industries reduce quickly. Its like the guy in a mining town that talks about how diversified they are with 5 accounting firms, 4 law firms, a big government office, two shopping malls and a car factory. Of everything I just listed, perhaps only the car factory would be unaffected if the mine closed.

You forget, that I come from Newfoundland and have seen the effect of even less than a thousand oil jobs-- The spin offs into law, accounting real estate and construction are amazing. Without oil, count on it, Calgary would be decimated.

I still don't buy that, considering that Calgary is NOT a "small mining town" so that analogy is not even close to being accurate. Not many people are actually directly involved with the oil industry in Calgary, but much of the money still comes from there for now.

NO and I set up the fact situation such that he was not lazy or a mooch. he had worked in an industry for more than 35 years only to have it collapse. His home and entire life are there . . . To expect him to blithely pop across the country . . . many of these fishermen are making just that move but I was just trying to inject a little humanity into your facts and figures argument . . . Wev are talking people and such moves are never easy .

So how come all of these OTHER people are flooding into provinces like Alberta to get a good job?

Sometimes you have to suck it up and move. My home is Calgary, and I'm probably going to move even though my life and family was here.

If he worked for 35 years but doesn't want to move to keep work, I can't see why "lazy" is not a bad description. Particularly when several years have passed and he's still jobless...

It sounds as if you have little or no attachment to this country so do whatever you feel is best for you .

What has this country done for me that I can't get better south of the border?

I've lived in both places. I didn't mind Canada before, but since I've lived there and come back there's so many problems with how Canada is run that it becomes incredibly frustrating.

Government is about spending and collecting money but I don't see that a country is just about that .

The concept of a country is nothing more than symbolic beyond the government.

I hope you never are in a position of power over real people if money is all you can see.

That's not all I see, but unlike most people I see that it's the basis for everything in the government.

Governments with no concept for money don't serve the people at all.

[blackice]

Do you think his arrogance will heed your common sense Flubber?

[Asher]

Originally posted by blackice
Do you think his arrogance will heed your common sense Flubber?

blackice, I don't think you've ever actually contributed to a thread.

Go back to the Chretien thread and reply.

Besides, shouldn't you be assisting the CEO of GM or something?

[blackice]

Not contributing and going way over your head are two different things. You should try and understand the difference.

[Asher]

Originally posted by blackice
Not contributing and going way over your head are two different things. You should try and ubderstand the difference.

Yes, your comments in this thread have been way beyond my intellectual capacity.

[notyoueither]

As a... more mature, native Albertan, who also happened to live through the wreck of the early 80's...

I can say that it is my opinion that if the feds ever inflict this province with a policy that so screws us again AND at the same time treat Alberta (and the West in general) with the contempt that PET and the federal Liberals did... we'd be gone in a New York minute.

It wasn't just about money. It was about jobs and homes and businesses that were lost as a consequence of bone headed policies inflicted by an arrogant government that acted as if we mattered squat. I think there is a word for it... tyranny.

[blackice]

Interesting to point out the oil sands and all your power generating abilities came from the NEP funds.

The time, at that time is what you need to look at to find why the NEP was put in place.
Jobs and homes accross the country were being lost not just there. At that time for the country it was the right thing to do. I understand the narrow view you have been taught but reality is at that time it was a good move by Trudeau.

[Asher]

blackice, give me a f*cking break.

Interesting to point out the oil sands and all your power generating abilities came from the NEP funds.

That is a complete and blatant lie.

Everything else you said just doesn't follow logically, at all.

[blackice]

As far as Koyoto goes if Alberta royalty revenues were brought in line with say Alaska the cost would be covered. So what is more important lives or money?

[faded glory]

lol pete