Final Civ: Korea - Page 2

kring · June 9, 2002, 14:31

Appearances can be deceiving.

By that, Firaxis never admits Korea is in; nor does it admit the Hwacha is a UU, just an arty piece.

A lot of assuming is going on about what was implied or not denied in that chat. The questions were NOT answered directly in most cases, the cases that mattered for example.

If the Hwacha is a UU for Korea, then not being able to cause a GA would be a major disadvantage for the more militant players that use UU's for such purposes. But, his answer was: there are other ways to get a GA. Now, this could mean the Hwacha is a UU that can't cause GA's; it could mean the Hwacha is not a UU; it could mean a lot of things totally unrelated to whether it is a UU.

The Hwacha could be a new arty piece available to flesh out arty since it is so limited. It might not even be considered arty in the Civ 3 sense, consider the Cruise Missile as an example of this.

I don't know if Korea is in or not. I will find out soon enough, as will we all. It is just there is some faulty logic being used to determine that Korea is indeed in, when the evidence doesn't justify it. I wouldn't give it higher than a 75% chance of Korea being in. That said, other limited evidence gives other civs about the same chance of being in.

I suspect that will be pleasant/unpleasant surprises all around once all the details come in when it is actually released. By this, I mean, somethings that we are certain are in may not be, or may not be in the way some people wanted them to be.

I think discussion can be good and challenging.

Panag · June 9, 2002, 14:57

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan

The editor'd better be good.......!

hi ,

dont worry , they have all-ready show they are able , ....

have a nice day

Nikolai · June 9, 2002, 15:30

How?

We can't do much in creating good scenarios, can we?

Zoid · June 9, 2002, 16:25

People, please... Historical significance has nothing to do with civs in PtW. Crass marketing has...

Since the Incas are out and Koreans in (?) it means that Firaxis/Infogrames marketing department has bigger expectations the game will sell more in Korea than in Peru

ranskaldan · June 9, 2002, 16:34

Indeed.......

Well we wouldn't be needing the Turks or Carthaginians then. Replacing them with the Dutch and Portuguese also seems to fit the Firaxis/Infogrames policies.

Jon Shafer · June 9, 2002, 17:00

And the Iroquois! Where did they come from!

ranskaldan · June 9, 2002, 17:11

Errr..... demands by Amerinds groups in America?

Remember, by and large, these games are marketed to the USA.

kring · June 9, 2002, 17:18

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Errr..... demands by Amerinds groups in America?

Remember, by and large, these games are marketed to the USA.

Demands by the First Nationers are rarely listened to in the USA. Otherwise, the whole country would have been given back to them, or at least their poverty level and homes would be much better condition. People would also stop using the R word, like they have the N word.

It was probably decided that since they were represented in Civ 2, it would be good for some to be in 3. Hopefully, it was out of respect for the accomplishments of the various First Nationers.

Veracitas · June 9, 2002, 18:13

So, when will firaxis cut the foreplay and finally release all the real info?

Jon Shafer · June 9, 2002, 21:07

They said during the chat that they were going to release info to certain sites as marketing teasers.

Zoid · June 10, 2002, 05:52

Quote:

Originally posted by ranskaldan
Indeed.......

Well we wouldn't be needing the Turks or Carthaginians then. Replacing them with the Dutch and Portuguese also seems to fit the Firaxis/Infogrames policies.

Exactly, who cares about Tunisia? Turkey should be a growing market though.

Zoid · June 10, 2002, 05:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
And the Iroquois! Where did they come from!

General PC, goodwill is also important in marketing...

Zoid · June 10, 2002, 05:57

Quote:

Originally posted by kring

Demands by the First Nationers are rarely listened to in the USA. Otherwise, the whole country would have been given back to them, or at least their poverty level and homes would be much better condition. People would also stop using the R word, like they have the N word.

It was probably decided that since they were represented in Civ 2, it would be good for some to be in 3. Hopefully, it was out of respect for the accomplishments of the various First Nationers.

The Iroquis weren´t represented in CivII, but the Sioux were. They just changed one native civ for another...

kring · June 10, 2002, 10:04

The they I was referring to was First Nationers, not the Iroquios specificially. I have the game, still play it sometimes. They may still bring back the Sioux in another XP.

For those who don't know First Nationers are more commonly called Indians, Native Americans, AmerInd, etc.

Panag · June 10, 2002, 12:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Nikolai
How?

We can't do much in creating good scenarios, can we?

hi ,

just wait and see , ........

have a nice day

Zoid · June 10, 2002, 15:39

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
The they I was referring to was First Nationers, not the Iroquios specificially. I have the game, still play it sometimes. They may still bring back the Sioux in another XP.

For those who don't know First Nationers are more commonly called Indians, Native Americans, AmerInd, etc.

Sorry

I thought you were referring to the Iroquios...

monkspider · June 10, 2002, 15:45

I don't want to start a huge Iroqouis debate, but the First Nationers are too large and unique of a group to not include in Civ. Preferably at a high prioritiy IMHO.

Spiffor · June 10, 2002, 16:05

Kring :
Sure, Korea is probably only at 75% probability, but it's the only Civ for which we have material to speculate upon. Everything we can say about the Inca or the Hebrews is pure speculation, as absolutely nothing confirms or deny their presence. But OTOH, we have the Hwacha pic, with its specific Korean name.
Do you know any material which gives indication the Inca / Hebrews, whatever micht be in ?

(sorry if I sound rough, but I've seen someone taking it for certain the Inca will be in. His proof ? "Firaxis wouldn't be stupid enough not to give another American Civ"

)

ranskaldan · June 10, 2002, 16:23

It's a pity if Inca doesn't get in.

Panag · June 10, 2002, 16:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Kring :
Sure, Korea is probably only at 75% probability, but it's the only Civ for which we have material to speculate upon. Everything we can say about the Inca or the Hebrews is pure speculation, as absolutely nothing confirms or deny their presence. But OTOH, we have the Hwacha pic, with its specific Korean name.
Do you know any material which gives indication the Inca / Hebrews, whatever micht be in ?

(sorry if I sound rough, but I've seen someone taking it for certain the Inca will be in. His proof ? "Firaxis wouldn't be stupid enough not to give another American Civ"

)

hi ,

the "hwacha" could be from the japanese scenario they are putting in .

as for the Hebrews , one of the problems the have is the name , Israel' , or Jews , and guys dont make this in an off-topic now because of the above , thanks in advance

its a pitty they did not put the Inca in , even if it was to fill the worldmap , more exact South America , ...

have a nice day

Spiffor · June 10, 2002, 17:03

Panag :
Sure, it's not sure the Hwacha is the Korean UU, and thus it's not sure Korea is in. What I meant in my previous post is that we have a bit of information for Korea, but we have nothing at all for other Civs...
There is only one thing which supports the idea that Incas or Hebrews might be in. It's pure speculation and the desire to see them included.
What supports the Korea thesis is a possibly unrelated picture and unclear statement by Firaxians. It's not enough to be sure Korea might be in, but these are clues. Other Civs didn't give any clues.

Panag · June 10, 2002, 17:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Panag :
Sure, it's not sure the Hwacha is the Korean UU, and thus it's not sure Korea is in. What I meant in my previous post is that we have a bit of information for Korea, but we have nothing at all for other Civs...
There is only one thing which supports the idea that Incas or Hebrews might be in. It's pure speculation and the desire to see them included.
What supports the Korea thesis is a possibly unrelated picture and unclear statement by Firaxians. It's not enough to be sure Korea might be in, but these are clues. Other Civs didn't give any clues.

hi ,

True , and maybe they are going to realease something totally different , ........

the only thing we can do is keep our fingers crossed

have a nice day

dexters · June 10, 2002, 20:21

Korea has at one time or another been considered a vassal or either China or Japan. Most Chinese view Korea as a sattelite state, and Korea is a distinctive iteration of the Chinese culture.

No offense to Koreans, but it Korea makes it into PTW, it won't be on its merit as a civilization, its nothing but pandering by Firaxis to Korean gamers in an attempt to sell more units in PC gaming hungry Korea.

ranskaldan · June 10, 2002, 22:22

Well, I'm Chinese, and that's not exactly how I view the Korean civilization.

In fact, you could argue that Korean, Japanese, and all Oriental culture stem from Chinese civilization, in the same way that all of European civilization derives from the Greco-Roman civilization.

But that is of course an oversimplification, and anyway, we aren't about to take the Japanese, French or British out of the game anyway.

Unless you want to argue that the only reason the French or Japanese civilizations are in is to please the French or Japanese, I don't see why the Koreans shouldn't be in due to their merits as a civilization.

kring · June 11, 2002, 11:46

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

the "hwacha" could be from the japanese scenario they are putting in .

20:55:13 [monkspider] Firaxis: Can you comment whether or not the Hwacha unit featured in several screenshots is part of the feudal japan theme pack?

20:55:23 [JeffreyMorrisFIRAXIS] Monk: It is not.

This from the chat the other day.

kring · June 11, 2002, 11:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Kring :
Sure, Korea is probably only at 75% probability, but it's the only Civ for which we have material to speculate upon. Everything we can say about the Inca or the Hebrews is pure speculation, as absolutely nothing confirms or deny their presence. But OTOH, we have the Hwacha pic, with its specific Korean name.
Do you know any material which gives indication the Inca / Hebrews, whatever micht be in ?

(sorry if I sound rough, but I've seen someone taking it for certain the Inca will be in. His proof ? "Firaxis wouldn't be stupid enough not to give another American Civ"

)

You didn't sound rough.

I don't have any indication as to the last 2 civs will be, and if I did get it, I would be unable to share it until it was approved from above. As it stands now, I don't know nor do I care to guess. There are a number of logical reasons where the Hwacha is in, but the Koreans wouldn't have to be. Until I know more, I am not going to say yes they are in. At the same time, a person could make several arguments for them being in. Wait and see, I must.

Veracitas · June 11, 2002, 14:17

Quote:

Originally posted by dexters
Korea has at one time or another been considered a vassal or either China or Japan. Most Chinese view Korea as a sattelite state, and Korea is a distinctive iteration of the Chinese culture.

No offense to Koreans, but it Korea makes it into PTW, it won't be on its merit as a civilization, its nothing but pandering by Firaxis to Korean gamers in an attempt to sell more units in PC gaming hungry Korea.

I agree wholly with ranskaldan. "No offense"? I'm sorry, but that was really offensive. Aren't you offended everytime an American claims that Canada is a US sattelite state with no distinct culture? I've heard the term "Canada is the US's biotch" many, many times. All my Canadian friends vehemently object, of course.

Of course, few here realize that Canada is actually one of the wealthiest nations in the world. According to THE WORLD BANK, Canada actually has the 8th largest economy. But, if you look a few spaces down, tiny South Korea actually holds the number 12 spot (it was number 11 before the IMF crisis). Pretty good for a country that you claim doesn't have merits as a civilization, eh?

Like many who were raised with a Western historical perspective, you seem to have little clue what Korea's past really was like. All you see are the periods of Chinese suzerainty, Japanese imperialization, the miseries of the Korean War, and US economic domination.

Even during these times, Korean history is fascinating, but there's much more, too, that you don't see--during these times and others.

Panag · June 11, 2002, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by kring

20:55:13 [monkspider] Firaxis: Can you comment whether or not the Hwacha unit featured in several screenshots is part of the feudal japan theme pack?

20:55:23 [JeffreyMorrisFIRAXIS] Monk: It is not.

This from the chat the other day.

hi ,

hang on , somewhere the made it look like it was , ...

well anyway , lets hope more and more units come in

however it would be very nice from firaxis , if they could give us some news , ......even if it was a little bit , ....

have a nice day

Veracitas · June 14, 2002, 02:47

out of curiosity, where IS this hwacha screenshot i've been hearing so much about?

Spiffor · June 14, 2002, 07:59

Veracitas :
http://apolyton.net/view.php?/civ3/i...a-Portrait.jpg

It comes from the screenshot pack that was shipped by Infogrames in the E3. I can't find it anymore on the Infogrames site, though. It's called Hwacha directly in this pack.