How Firaxis can fix the two Civ traits everyone hates- Expansionist and Commercial

[monkspider]

Four of the six civ traits are mostly well liked, you may see an occasional bad post about Militaristic, or maybe someone who doesn't like scientific every once in a while. But compared to these four, there are two civ traits that *MUCH* more complained about. These two are Expansionist and Commerical. In the thread that follows I will explain the case against them for any would-be Firaxis readers and exactly how they can be fixed in a balancing way.

Expansionist-
Why we don't like it- First and foremost, there is absolultely nothing to look forward to beyond the first ten or twenty turns. This goes beyond not being a very good trait, but it's absolutely no fun at all. You have no idea how depressing it is to know that once the first few turns are over, you have one civ trait that will contribute absolutely nothing to your cause. Secondly, the benefits that it offers aren't nearly as good as the others. The fact that you *MIGHT* get a few ancient level techs if you happen to be close to a few goodie huts is hardly ever as good as the benefits of say cheap temples or faster workers. So even if you do happen to have a little bit of good luck, 99.9% of the time the benefits you get are very slim compared to other civs. Moreover, if you are lucky enough to find horseback riding in some goodie hut, everyone knows ancient level techs are the easiest thing in the world to trade for anyway, so this is doubly damning to any conceivable benefits to being an expansionist civ. And yes, you do get to explore the map a little bit earlier, and maybe gain a shield or two of production from a couple of your cities because you were able to place your cities in more strategically sound locations, due to scouts. But that is about the only thing Expansionist civs have going for them. So we have already established that being an expansionist civ is without question much less "fun" than any other trait, is arguably much less "effective" than other trait, the fact that it's entire success is based on pure luck is something that just shouldnt' be in a Civ game. The fact that expansionist civs recieve absolutely ANY benefit at all relies on map settings being set a certain way is just ludicrus. As I see it, If Expansionist civs aren't retooled, there is going to exist a game-balance hole big enough for a mack truck to drive through.

How to fix it: There are a number of novel ways for expansionist civs to be effectively retooled. I like Apolyton user Nationalists' suggestion to make it less likely for cities conquered by expansionist civs to culture-flip. Thus, effectively allowing them to "expand" more easily. Given some player's annoyance to Culture-flips, this would make them much more attractive. It would simply have to be a resistance to culture-flipping large enough to be noticeable, but small enough to not be game-balancing. If you could simply do this, expansionist civs would see their stock rise greatly.

Commerical-
Why we hate it- I don't really have any particular outspoken feelings regarding the commerical trait. It's just that, well, it just doesn't do much. It is said to reduce your corruption in theory but in practice all it does is increase your optimal number of cities by one (read: it does nothing). Poster Alexman's study has proved it does next to nothing for corruption. So beyond that it offers a little bit of extra income in your major cities, which is helpful but isn't really a huge deal. And aside from that, it does nothing! It doesn't even lower the cost of commerical-oriented city improvements. Which leads us to our next point.
How to fix it- Simply raise the ammount that it lowers corruption by, raise it maybe to be about equal to the ammount that a courthouse lowers. And then just allow commericial civs to have cheaper marketplaces and banks. That's it. That's all you need to do.

I hope Firaxis takes this into serious consideration, and I urge players who agree to vote yes, in the poll at the top, that these civ traits to need to be improved in order to be taken seriously in multiplayer competition. These traits are at the heart of every civ, and if not improved will create a huge balance issue.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Today:

Expansionist
Russia,America,Zululand,Iroquois,England
Free scout & can build scouts
Passive barbarians more generous
(problem with unbalanced free money and techs from GH)

Commercial
Rome,Greece,France,India,England
1 more gold from city tile in pop 7+ cities
Lower corruption

1st has role 'Trader' civ
2nd has role 'Imperial'

Proposal:

'Trader'
1 more gold from city tile in pop 7+ cities
Passive barbarians more generous


'Imperial'
+1 Settler from beginning
+50(100)% optimal number of cities

Scouts prerequisite are Map Making and allowed for all civs
with move=1 and Hidden Nationality

5 gold from Barbarian Camps
10 gold from Goody Hut and decriesed chance for Advances

Need decrriesing cost of Currency

[civman2000]

undecided, because i think only commercial needs improvement...ok, maybe expansionist could have a bit of tweaking, but if the map is not an archipelago, it can be very good.

[High Lord J]

Missed:

Commerical- Best chance of getting first republic.
Expanist- With scout you can quickly find other civs and bulid cities to block them from getting much more cities.

[MiloMilo]

Monkspider, is that confirmed that it only raise optimal cities by 1? I've been playing with commercial civs lately, and thought I could see a noticeable reduction in corruption. But maybe that was across the board...
I think commercial civs should get cheaper marketplaces (needed because it's actually a rather expensive improvement) and either cheaper banks or cheaper harbors - I can't decide which. No big deal either way though.

Also, a good suggestion for expansionist civs was that their galleys and caravels have a lower chance of sinking in deep water (and in my view, all others' boats should have a higher chance of sinking). They could more easily claim islands, contact other civs, etc. Thus their benefits could potentially extend all the way until Navigation.

[DrFell]

Well I think expansionist trait will be good in MP as you'll be able to locate your opponents much earlier and they won't all be stupid enough to share maps with you

But if you really want to make it a killer give scouts a 1 defence.

[Sinapus]

Hm. Isn't there a flag in the editor that lets you determine what unit an expansionist civ will get at first? Maybe that should be changed from Scout to Settler, to give them an early game boost? (One that might be more useful than having a scout from the start...)

[DrFell]

A free settler would be far far too powerful for any civ trait IMO. Instantly doubled expansion = you will be nearly double the size the whole game.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I voted a resounding NO. If people can't come up with ways to use it properly, well then its just too bad.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
I voted a resounding NO. If people can't come up with ways to use it properly, well then its just too bad.

Nope! I'm alredy expansionist, militarist, scientific, industrious and a lot commercial . My Empire is Greeeeaaaaat! But AI aren't. 'Expansionist' AI civs no expand. Where imperialistic spirit of AI?

[nato]

I vote yes. I think both these traits are too weak compared to the others.

All games need to be tweaked after release. The experience and knowledge of 1000s of games played is vast compared to pre release testing. Players are bound to find that some things are too powerful, and some too weak.

I disagree with statements like "If people can't come up with ways to use it properly, well then its just too bad." Its silly to assume things were perfect when they were released; with greater testing, the things that need tweaking will be revealed. I think these two traits have been so revealed.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Actually the Zulus are always expanding all over the place and so the Brits.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Im not assuming that they were perfect. Im just saying that some people in this forum have found ways to make Expansionist very potent, and that increaseing its strength will make it too potent.

[monkspider]

Well if Expansionist does become too potent, and people can't think of ways to make the other traits just as potent, well that's just too darn bad.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

? I'm sorry monk, I'm confused

[monkspider]

I was using your reasoning against you Lawrie.



You think we shouldn't change the traits because people just need to become creative enough to find ways to make expansionist and commerical better. You then were alarmed that expansionist might become too good. I then borrowed your reasoning and said people should just find creative ways to make the other civs just as good then.

All in good fun of course Lawrie.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Ahh i get it now
But Please, no Lawrie
Creativity is THE way to win. If everytime you play, you come up with a new trick, or a new way to twist something, then you are truly a good civ player (also an addict BTW )

[Pythagoras]

Well here's the proposals I thought were good from the earlier thread (for expansionist)

1) No map trading until navigation/education or something
2) settler/pioneer unit that is a settler w/ 2 moves and maybe 1 defence
3) Texas style emmigration that lets new citizens of a neighboring civs city potentially be of your nationality - causing increased strife against them during war and potential culture flip.

[dunk]

Why should they be "fixed"?

Think of Commercial as somewhat of a handicap. Before you move up to Monarch from Regent, play Regent as a commercial civ. It's like a quarter step harder to play as a commercial civ than any other civ.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
Well here's the proposals I thought were good from the earlier thread (for expansionist)

1) No map trading until navigation/education or something

I've done this in my mod, delayed map trading (and communication) to Astronomy/Navigation. Makes it much more worthwhile to be an expansionist civ, able to make early contacts that others can't. Makes the whole early game have a much different (and very tasty flavor. And the nice thing is you can do this now, in the editor.

As for Commercial, I'm playing as the Romans lately and don't know what to do with all the extra gold. No changes needed.

[Imp. Montezuma]

Hey wake up, guys! It's just AI problem. For humans it's as well.
Again: It's ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE bug.

[Panag]

hi ,

there should be more civ specifies abilities , especially with more civs coming , ......

Firaxis , care to comment ; ......

have a nice day

[Spiffor]

Panag :
I think I remeber Jef saying it's on their "wishlist" : things they'll do if they have time. We absolutely don't know what precisely is on this wishlist, nor what is the priority order.
So a new trait is not impossible, but chances are low... I suspect there is still much work to do until September.

Jeff, care to tell us what's on your wishlist ?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Panag :
I think I remeber Jef saying it's on their "wishlist" : things they'll do if they have time. We absolutely don't know what precisely is on this wishlist, nor what is the priority order.
So a new trait is not impossible, but chances are low... I suspect there is still much work to do until September.

Jeff, care to tell us what's on your wishlist ?

hi ,

Jeff , put that list under a tree , ......who knows , ...

the bigger the list , the better , ...

have a nice day

[playshogi]

I agree with making marketplaces and banks cheaper and perhaps courthouses, for commercial. With expansionist, I think the scout should get to move 2 regardless of terrain. Also, how about letting expasionist cities expand at 8,80,800 etc. instead of 10,100,1000 etc.? Or,maybe 0, 100, 1000 that is every city founded immediately controls 21 squares.

[Lucilla]

Originally posted by playshogi
I agree with making marketplaces and banks cheaper and perhaps courthouses, for commercial. With expansionist, I think the scout should get to move 2 regardless of terrain. Also, how about letting expasionist cities expand at 8,80,800 etc. instead of 10,100,1000 etc.? Or,maybe 0, 100, 1000 that is every city founded immediately controls 21 squares.

Yes, marketplaces and banks should be cheaper, cheaper courthouses would be too much, IMO.
I'd prefer the 0, 100, 1000 option, because the 8, 80, 800 would be too powerful. It would also be then be a more cultural than expansionist trait, and expansion by culture is already represented by religious and scientific traits.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Lucilla


Yes, marketplaces and banks should be cheaper, cheaper courthouses would be too much, IMO.
I'd prefer the 0, 100, 1000 option, because the 8, 80, 800 would be too powerful. It would also be then be a more cultural than expansionist trait, and expansion by culture is already represented by religious and scientific traits.

hi ,

that can be done true the editor , .....

have a nice day

[Papa Lazarou]

im always the english so im hard done by (cruddy UU AND expan/comm). the way i get around this is to give all the expansionist civs a colonist unit instead of a settler with simply has a 2 movement rather than one. this means they can expand further, quicker. seems to work great!

[Jaguar]

How about this for expansionists? They can build galleys immediately! I don't think anything more is necessary.

Papa whateveritis also has a good idea.

Commercial is really weak. 50% markets and banks would make them fine.

[Ijuin]

I agree that Commercial civs would be appropriately strengthened by giving them half price Marketplaces/Banks.

As for Expansionist civs, I would give them a second special unit, the Coracle. This is like a Galley with no attack power (0.1.3, carry 2), and would upgrade to Caraval. The Coracle would be available from the start of the game, cost 30 shields, and travel over Coastal and Sea squares (sink in Ocean even WITH the Great Lighthouse).

Alternatively, the Expansionist civs could get half price Aqueducts and Hospitals, which would give them a benefit throughout the game instead of just during the Ancient Age.