Triple Threat - The Joys of Being a Bloodthirsty Barbarian

[Velociryx]

Decided I’d take a bit to write about one of the civs that is, in my opinion, among the MOST fun to play.

The Aztecs.

Man…those guys are just insane.

A solid set of abilities…Militaristic and Religious, and a UU that never goes out of style.

You just can’t get any better than that.

So…what’s the big deal, you might ask? With a fast-moving warrior, you’re almost sure to waste your golden age when you’ve got the tiniest handful of cities and that sucks, you have the UU with the worst stats in the whole game, and that sucks, and some people regard militaristic as not being in the upper echelon of civ traits, so THAT sucks.

I would contend though, that those who break the civ apart like that are simply missing the big picture.

The strength of the Aztec lies not in their individual abilities and traits, but in the package taken as a whole, and in this case, the whole really IS greater than the sum of its parts.

Here’s why:

First, the Jaguar Warrior. Simply an amazing piece of work. Can be built for a song (same price as a Warrior), upgrades to Swordsmen later on (if you want to), and it’s FAST!

The speed gains seen by a handful of Aztec scouts accomplishes essentially the same goals as the Industrious workers building an early military road network…without the workers OR the roads (actually, enhanced BY both…it’s just that the roads come together at normal rates), but that’s not all. In addition to starting the game with the ability to project their power better than anybody, the Aztecs are better at exploration than Expansionist civs (who must choose between building a non-attack capable scout or a warrior…the Aztec get both in the same package). True, the Aztec don’t always get good stuff from huts, but more often than not they do! How’s that? Simply because Aztecs are Militaristic, meaning that even barbarians from huts are good things (faster promotions), and a matched pair of exploring Jags can take on anything that comes out of a hut, growing stronger with each victory.

Like Expansionist civs, the Aztec have the advantage of being able to see more of the map, more quickly, and can pick the best spots (food and luxury wise) to build their new cities in while the rest of the civs are stumbling around in the dark.

Also like Expansionist civs (not bad, since they don’t have to bother with having the Expansionist trait), they get to meet neighboring civs more quickly (opening up early trading opportunities and the like), and see more than their fair share of goody huts.

Having played the group a number of times, here’s what I have found to be a winning strategy with one of the premier rough and tumble civs in the game:

The Opener
The Aztec are not particularly hurt by a less than optimal starting position. Just put ‘em anywhere and they can thrive, and God help anyone near you if you DO get so much as a single cow, wheat stalk or forested game tile in the radius of your starting city. The main REASON they’re not particularly bothered by the weaker start is that they bust up the shroud (fog of war) so quickly, that by the time you’re ready to build that next city, you have 3-4 OUTSTANDING sites all picked out, and have likely begun a road to one of them!

Just build your city anyplace…set up shop and start growing like a weed.

Your first goal is to build some Jags…at least 2 for exploring and 1 for defense, and start exploring. Very quickly, you’ll uncover an ever-widening swath of territory, revealing all manner of terrain, bonus food tiles, luxuries, goody huts, and rival civs, and right now, all you’re doing is taking notes. Don’t get rowdy yet…no need…(“YET” being the operative word).

Getting the Lay of the Land
The reason you’re not getting rowdy yet is that it’s far, FAR more important to map the continent you’re on than it is to knock a neighboring civ out of commission really early (though with the Aztec, I have caused civ-extinctions even before they could build a second city). So…build as many Jags as you can (in fact, build them any time you’re waiting for the city to grow large enough to build a settler), and send ever-increasing numbers of them out exploring (individually at first, in groups (wolf packs) later.

Your goal – to map the continent, taking note of the locations of enemy civs, bonus food tiles, and luxury patches. Nothing else matters in the early game.

The good thing is that while you are getting the lay of the land, you’re also building a steady diet of settlers, enabling you to build MORE Jags and MORE settlers, such that by the time you have 3-4 cities up and running, you’ve probably mapped out your continent (I can generally map out my whole continent by this point if playing Large worlds and smaller), and you have at least a dozen speedy Jags running around.

Time to make everyone pay.

The First Assault
Go for the jugular (jagular?) of the largest civ near you. If they have a size 2+ city that’s not the capitol, or any city that has done it’s first border bump, hit it.

You can see the defenders by probing in a turn or two before, so you know if they’ve got spearmen or not, and if they don’t have spearmen yet, then 4-5 Jags will take the city. If they DO have spearmen, bring 7-8 Jags on the attack. In any case, you’ve got enough warriors on hand to get the job done, but don’t stop there. Take that first city, hole up to heal, use pre-emptive strikes to hit incoming enemy archers (might as well let the warriors attack you and take the defensive bonus, but take out the Archers on their way in), and when you’ve replaced your losses from the first assault, do it again!

Keep in mind too that your Jags can make lots of little detours…raiding new settler parties that the civ you’re at war with might be sending out (free workers!), and capturing any workers you might run across in the field.

You might not be an Industrious civ, but with so many workers captured in the ancient era, you will quickly gain most of the key benefits of that civ trait as well!

The point is…since we’re talking about the ancient era, capturing 1-2 cities will be enough to accomplish three goals:

1) It’ll give you your golden age. Faster Jags. Not a GREAT golden age, but hey…it’s what you have to live with.

2) Free tech when the first civ cries uncle

3) 1-2 extra cities, and one less viable opponent

Having done that by 1900 BC or so…having wrecked a neighboring civ and captured 4-5 workers, you are free to turn your attention to the next largest neighbor.

This is oscillating war at its finest…made even finer by the fact that your captured workers and fast warriors can rapidly shift from one front to the other, even if the road network is not quite complete (though you should waste no time in connecting your cities and building that military road network…of vital importance to getting as much mileage as you can out of your Jags).

Points to remember (or at least keep in mind):

1) Don’t bother researching (at all). You’ll need the money to support your army (which will invariably be…well…huge, by ancient era standards), and you’ll get tech faster from goody huts and conquered neighbors anyway.

2) Have your starting worker build at least one mine in a good spot for your first couple of cities. The boon shaves 1-2 turns of “Jag-Time”

3) Aside from the mine at your first city, the only concern your starting worker should have is road building. Additional mines can be built with captured workers, which will be coming soon to an Aztec city near you.

4) As an Aztec player, your cities should only focus on four things. NOTHING else matters but these four: Jags, Settlers (which enable you to build MORE Jags), Barracks (which enable you to build BETTER Jags), and Temples (your people are HAPPY about….building Jags). That’s it. Anything else, and you’re wasting your time and your advantage.

5) You OWN the early game, and everything in it. Nobody on your starting continent lives and breathes without your expressed permission.

6) Attrition is your friend, and despite the Jag’s retreat potential, you WILL lose some, every time you attack a city. Get used to it, and get over it. They’re cheap, and you can make more.


The combination of a hatefully strong early game UU enables you to mimic the traits of Expansionist (fast exploration, more goody huts) and Industrious (vast numbers of ancient era slave workers captured), giving you the most important benefits of both, for free.

Your nearest and most likely rivals simply cannot touch you (your biggest threat coming from the Iroquois, but you can kill them before they can build any MW’s at all, even if you take your sweet time about it, and in any case, three Jags can be built for the price of a single MW, which is an uneven fight no matter how you slice it).

You are, in the ancient era, the Japanese film equivalent of Godzilla. Your traits and your UU converge in such a way that you can see the essential benefits of at least one, possibly two other Civ traits you don’t even posses. In turn, these advantages can rapidly catapult you into a position of utter dominance on your starting continent, giving you room to grow and expand and all but ensuring a steady stream of Great Leaders (lots of ancient wonders).

Give ‘em a spin….you’ll love it!

-=Vel=-

[Theseus]

Wouldn't they be Jagpacks?

Do you find that ultra-early warmongering trips the aggression flag?

If so (and I think it does), the problem for psycho bastard Jageteering is gonna be when culturally linked starts is turned OFF.

Greece, Rome, Persia, Egypt, and Zulus are all, umm, problematic for the little runners.

Not that you couldn't whack any one or two of'em on the head, just like the Iroquois, but, depending on the layout, you could easily encourage one or more to be equally aggressive. Which might be fun.

[Solver]

Hey Vel, this is an excellent post. I'm about to finish my current game, and though I play as Random civ usually, I'll go for the Aztecs next time. I love em already, but this is an interesting approach.

Questions... do you really mean researching no techs? Not even the Iron Working? Also, what to do if I'm near the Greeks? Then I guess it's 20 Jaguars on a city... shrug.

[Velociryx]

Theseus: Yep...I'd almost bet that it does, but in every game I've ever played with the "Green Terror," it didn't matter....it's all about momentum....an easy thing to get with the Aztec. And once it's working for you, it's all over but the lamentations of the other side's women...

Overall threat assessment from some of the ancient era "big guns"

Egypt and Zulu: High threat. They mimic the primary ability of your UU, and they have better overall stats. Would make them my first target if near either on non-culturally linked starts. A focused, determined strike while they were spread out exploring (one of those, "kill them before they can found their second city" instances).

Persians/Babs: Low threat. Effectively, the Bowman and Immortal are the same thing, from the POV of the Jag, who will almost never actually *get* attacked by either. And they're more expensive to boot.

Roman/Greek: Medium threat. If I'm near them on a non-culturally linked start, I'd either make it a priority to nail the Romans early (pre-ironworking, when they're just like everybody else) or, in the case of the Greek, I'd wait till I had eaten a few neighboring civs and had some momentum on my side, then hit them with a massive wave of Jags, upgraded to swordsmen (cheesy tip here: build out toward the Greek, rush a barracks in the closest city, use the jag's 2-moves to get to that front quickly, then upgrade to sword and go for the kill).

Iroquois: Medium threat. Kill 'em before they get MW's, and it's easy, do it after and you'll need more Jags, but at 3:1 production ratio, you'll have more. Lots more.

Everybody else: Low threat and long dead before they get their UU.

Solver: See above re: the Greek....and yep...no need to worry 'bout research...save the money to pay troop salaries and let loose the Jags of War!

-=Vel=-

[Solver]

Really sweet and interesting.

Now, if I only have two other civs on my continent, what do I do? I guess I leave them both almost dead, grab their tech, and then go for researching and building up? I need to do it somewhen, not to cripple the advantages I have gotten. It will then be sweet to come over those 1-city civs finally, a bit later .

[Arrian]

Ah Vel, the champion of the Aztecs. You really love those guys, don't ya? You make a sound, convincing case.

I have yet to play the little green monsters. Their traits match my favorites, but I like the later UU because I have developed a pretty effective strategy for crushing my neighbors w/o the use of a UU.

I should start a copycat thread entitled "The joys of Bushido: Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love the sword."

Nah, I've posted my Japan strat tons of times now. How about a copycat of your Industrious thread, regarding the virtuous of being Religious? Heh. It's friday and I'm at work... why not?

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Solver....you got it...if you find yourself with a very limited number of neighboring civs, then you have to tone it down a little. Keep pruning them to keep them helpless and deprive them of anything useful, but keep them big enough to rape for techs when you need it (might want to just plan on giving them 2-3 cities each time you conquer parts of their empire to keep them alive and "big enough").

And Arrian! Yes! I would love to see your post on Japan! I had it in my head to do a "The Virtues of Being Pious," or something similar, but had not fully formed the thought in my head when I read your post here, so you go for it, and I shall add my thoughts to your thread! I'm looking forward to the reads!

Ahhh, and yes, you should take the Green Machine out for a spin....hehe...you'll be a TOTAL junkie...

-=Vel=-

[King of Rasslin]

Japan has the same traits, but their UU comes in time for a perfect golden age. I like Japan more. Jag rushes all depend on LUCK. And I do not want to depend on that. The jag rush will die with multiplayer when people realize you need 5 jags to kill a single spearman. I'll take samurai any day, thank you very much.

Ok, Aztecs have great traits and their UU can be useful for pillaging. But I would rather capture cities than destroy the terrain around them. But I don't want to use 20 jags to take down a single city. And the worst part about jags is that you will pay a lot for maintaining them. You are just looking at a despot golden age, and hoping you don't get stuck on an island.

I would save a ton of them for a late golden age, and use them to pillage if I can't take a city. I would still chose Japan, though.

[Catt]

A Jag rush can indeed be a very powerful early weapon, but my experience (admittedly somewhat limited with Aztecs) is that much of the potential depends on random factors -- who you're next to, map type, etc. (which is true for most civs, of course, but seems especially true with expansionist civs or civs with "expansionist-like" traits). If you find your Jags on a continent with only one other civ, the oscillating wars strategy (the most powerful use of the Jags, IMHO) goes away, and you burn your early GA without the ability to bulk up for 4 different "neighborly visits." In this sense, playing the Aztecs "feels" to me like an expansioist civ: wow! on a pangea with lots of huts, versus -- wow! on an archipelago with no goody huts at all!

And as an additional counterpoint (as someone overly attached to the Virtue of Being Industrious ) when I rush early with Jags, I never seem to capture very many workers. Even rushing two civs on a shared continent, I sometimes walk away with only 2 or 3 slaves (unless I patiently wait for a settler combo to venture out in my Jags' direction, something difficult to do with the little green monsters straining at the leash).

Catt

[Txurce]

Almost all of my games have been with the Aztecs, Egyptians, Babs and Iroquois. It's been Egypt lately, but I'll be going back to the Aztecs soon. I couldn't agree more with Vel's observations, and a careful reading of them answer some of the questions raised here:

Capturing enough workers requires careful oscillating: don't wipe the civ out, and be on the lookout for resettlement teams.

The Jags arguably require less luck than any other unit. You are counting on higher numbers due to their cheapness, and striking first due to their speed. Do both and you will win, especially since reinforcements don't come more frequently than they do for the Jag! (The samurai will never see the light of day if Japan is on the same continent as the Aztecs. It may be different on MP, and it may not... but we're not talking MP.)

No civ does particularly well starting on an island with one other civ on Emperor, but I've won a space-race victory with the Aztecs starting alone on an island, playing on Monarch.

Knowing which civ to take out first, and then second, is critical for almost every civ, and this is no better or worse for the Aztecs. In my mind, the Zulus are even tougher than Egypt for the Jags. The saving grace here is that the Zulus don't build enough Impis. If you reach a civ at a point where they have made good use of iron working, and were far enough away that the Jags didn't already whittle them down to size, then it's time to break my heart and convert the JWs into the largest sword army on the planet.

All that said, I do have two questions for Vel:

1) when do you build your barracks?
2) doesn't the relatively high death rate and swarm tactics lead to a low number of surviving elites, and thus GLs, despite the militaristic trait?

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And Arrian! Yes! I would love to see your post on Japan! I had it in my head to do a "The Virtues of Being Pious," or something similar, but had not fully formed the thought in my head when I read your post here, so you go for it, and I shall add my thoughts to your thread! I'm looking forward to the reads!

Ahhh, and yes, you should take the Green Machine out for a spin....hehe...you'll be a TOTAL junkie...

-=Vel=-

Vel,

Well, I've posted my Japan strategy several times. It has its limitations, much like your Jag rush. If you start with 1 neighbor, it isn't all that great. It still works pretty well, though. Theseus, Sir Ralph and I have been playing a little mini-tournament game as Japan and we started with only Honest Abe as a neighbor. Well, to be fair, Ghandi was off the coast, within galley range, so I guess you have to include him).

Anyway, it is sorta like oscillating war, but more... permanent. I tend not to leave enemies behind me.

I have fine-tuned it for Standard Map, Continents, 8 civs (it's a Monarch strat, may work on Emperor, doubt it on Diety... or at least it will not achieve all that it is designed to achieve). It's all about pre-building a massive army using predecessor units (warriors and chariots) while hoarding cash for the upgrade. The goal: 20-25 horsemen, 5-10 swordsmen (depending on terrain) by 400bc. Then, FIRE AT WILL, COMMANDER! Well executed, this will lead to the destruction (or near-destruction, take all tech/map/gold, here keep one city) of three civs. Hopefully, some Great Leaders will arise. If there are more civs on the continent, you may have to pause for Samurai. It all depends.

It was developed out of my continuing search for the game of ultimate power. "Ultimate Power" (tm) has it's own definition, which I won't go into here.

I think I ought to write the defense of Religious as most powerful attribute (counterpoint to your Industrious thread). I actually played a game as China just to test out the differences (same strat, same second trait, similar starts). Religious comes out on top, at least for me.

-Arrian

[Jawa Jocky]

I've actually used Jags for resource/pillage suicide missions later in the game. You can build them in one turn and 2 moves helps penetrate behind enemy lines. A swarm of them can devistate city terrain improvements and starve a city very quickly. Build an army of these ants and even civs with more advanced units will accept peace.

Off topic question. With 1.21 (and horses) I was unable to upgrade War Chariots to horsemen the other day. What are the UU upgrade rules again?

[Arrian]

Vel,

Ask and yea shall receive. Thread on Religious is up ("The Breath of God: Only the Penitent Man shall pass")

-Arrian

[Catt]

Originally posted by Txurce
Capturing enough workers requires careful oscillating: don't wipe the civ out, and be on the lookout for resettlement teams.

Yes, but if the ability to oscillate isn't there, a problem. If sharing land with one or even two other civs, it has been my experience (again, limited with Aztecs) that in order to generate what I consider to be a sufficient slave horde, I have to break treaties and attack within 20 turns of peace (which has its own complicating factors, of course). Perhaps I will be more aggressive about gifting back conquered cities next time I find myself in this situation.

No civ does particularly well starting on an island with one other civ on Emperor, but I've won a space-race victory with the Aztecs starting alone on an island, playing on Monarch.

But, in addition to the UU, each civ has only two special benefits (traits). IMHO, expansionist is the trait most susceptible to either or depending on the world parameters. Ind, Rel, Mil, and even Com are much less impacted by world parameters. A big point of Vel's thread is that the Jags largely give the benefits of expansionist, but with the advantage of retaining its two (non-expansionist) trait advantages. That benefit, IMHO, is largely subject to the map parameters.

Of course, one doesn't necessarily play the Aztecs (Rel / Mil) to be "expansionist-like" -- the little green monsters, as you point out, are both cheap and fast.

One of my underlying themes which I haven't articulated very well is that it is very difficult to make a strong case for or against any particular civ (okay, except the English ) provided one is limited to making that case considering all possible map parameters - each civ has the potential to be hurt or helped depending on what the random map generator throws at it, some more than others ( to Firaxis -- awfully good balance for the most part). Some civs, however, seem to me to be better "generalists" - playable under all conditions, but without a significant advantage in any particular settings. The Aztecs, IMHO, tend to be more streaky -- some of their benefits (which I agree Vel details very well) are very dependent on map formation. If you are prevented from attacking a number of other civs until the Great Lighthouse / Navigation / Astronomy, the Jags become much less fearsome attackers.

My own bias is coming out ; if a passion for the civ is based more on the UU than the civ's traits, watch out for random catastrophes (of the scads of folks who vociferously trumpet the Persians as the civ to beat, I wonder how many will play out a full game when they can't secure a source of iron early?)

Finally, Vel's "Triple Threat" is an excellent overview of the power of the Aztecs, and how best to exploit that power. I know that neither he nor you are arguing that the Aztecs are the best civ to use, period, or necessarily the best civ to use in specific circumstances -- I read the initial post as "How to Employ the Aztecs Effectively" rather than "Why the Aztecs are the Best." With that in mind, have I (and all of us, to a lesser degree) thread-jacked just a bit?

Catt

[Velociryx]

King: You make some good points, bud....no denying it, or the fact that Japan is a sweet civ, but as has been pointed out, you gotta survive to the middle ages to see the Japanese UU. In MP, if you happen to start next door to the friendly green mulch machine, good luck and godspeed.

The only civs who start the game with the ability to build spearmen are scientific civs, and even then, I don't expect to see MP games where a huge emphasis is put into early game defense--I would imagine it won't be terribly different from any other 4x game in that regard, where the majority of the emphasis is on exploration and getting an army in the field--so, prolly no more than a single spearman guarding an ancient era town. A fistful of Jags (even if a couple die in the process...but most wont, thanks to the retreat ability), and the city is toast. In the early goings, such a loss can be a devastating blow to your game. The Aztecs don't have to take you out....just wing you...cripples your early growth and they can finish you later, which is why I think the Aztec will be a force to reckon with in MP (tho in MP, I would imagine that most players would go ahead and deliver the knockout blow).

Those who don't start with Bronzeworking might not live long enough to see the tech. (Up to) forty turns is an eternity, and a pretty big window of opportunity for the feathered legions.

The main thing I would disagree with in your post though, is the notion that a Jag-sweep is all about luck. It's not. Like any other battle, it's about playing the odds, the key difference is that the odds are vastly simplified (and much closer to the bone) given how early you launch your attacks.

I'm used to launching pre-historic attacks with warriors. I find Jags even easier and less costly, cos not many of them die (again, thanks to the retreat ability). Sweep in, capture a town, haul the wounded inside for a couple of turns, and you're ready to go again. And, because they're so frighteningly cheap, reinforcements are three breaths away! The logistics of a Jag attack are pretty straightforward, and once I got accustomed to the mindset, I've never had a particular problem in executing the attack (a thing I could not claim if the attacks were, in fact, luck based...sooner or later, the odds would get me...but they haven't).

Catt: Quite so. In SMAC, it was the ideal situation, IMO, to find yourself alone on an island or smallish continent (which would give you a broader window of time in which to develop your strategy). It's the kiss of death in Civ, regardless of who you are playing, but for the Aztec (who draw much of their power from hyper-aggression in the ancient era), it's a harder blow than for most. Without anybody to beat up on, they're an okay civ, at best (as the Militaristic characteristic too, requires neighboring civs in order to be effective)....so the Aztecs are left with speedy exploration of their prison, and the Religous trait. Not enough to make up for starting in isolation.

I see that Txurce beat me to the punch where the question of workers is concerned, and my answer echoes his. When I'm playing the Aztec...once I've got the continent mapped, there are quite literally TONS of workers out in the field...alone, unescorted...just sitting there like fruit on a vine. I generally bring enough guys with me that I can spare one or two of them to capture the worker first, and speed him on his way back to my cities....in fact, that is quite often the "opening shot" of my declaration of war on a civ (forget diplomatic channels man...lol...the enemy knows the Jags are coming when their workers vanish from the fields! ). If possible, I'll have a pair of jags shadow a warrior/settler team as he leaves the capitol, bound for parts unknown...that's the second shot in the war...take out the warrior, settler converts to two more free workers. Three at a minimum, possibly 1-2 more if there's another worker or settler inside the city I'm attacking. That, a city, 2-3 techs, at least 3 workers....not a bad haul for losing maybe 2-3 Jags (that's in an attack where the defender has a spear and an archer/warrior defending).

Txurce: Glad to see another Aztec fan chiming in! Total agreement re: the Zulu, significantly because of the Egyptian UU movement restrictions. Impis are every bit as mobile as Jags, and they defend better. Only good way to fight them is to let them attack and then counter. Less than optimal solution tho, and totally ineffective in MP.

To answer your questions:
I don't make barracks a huge priority....generally, I'll get my first "wave" of Jags out and hunting, relying on barbarian kills for morale upgrades (and we hunt barbarians with a vengeance...I'll even intercept barbs heading troops and cities of other civs, just to get the kill and potential experience....see?! The Aztecs are nice guys! Look how they came to our rescue when the barbarians were prowling--insert evil laughter here... -- but, if I've got a slow growing city (usually one surrounded by forest with maybe a game tile nearby), that'll be the target for the barracks once the first wave is out...all the reinforcements then, will start as vets...a handy advantage!

As to attrition...yes and no. It's true, with the Aztec, you've got to build attrition into your thinking, but once you get used to thinking like that, you automatically place a protective arm around your growing cadre of Elites, and only risk them to deliver the death blow. Because of that....yes, there may be a slight negative impact on your GL generation when compared to other civs, but only when you guess wrong and lose elites--worst case, fighting a fast defender...no chance of withdraw...OUCH...another reason to despise Impis!)

Refinements and other observations to the above:

1) Maximize your ancient era worker captures whenever possible! This means shamelessly raiding and stealing the workers of other civs any time you see them. It also means keeping a sharp eye out for settler teams. If you're striking as early as you should be with the Green Terror, then the settlers will be guarded by a lone warrior in most cases. A pair of jags can *easily* take down the lone defender and net you a possible promotion and a pair of workers. Sweeeeet....

2) Slowly build up an "advanced combat team" as tech permits...bronze working allows the building of spearmen in your cities, which can free up another wave of Jags (with a couple spearmen being set aside for defenders in the advanced combat team). Toss in a couple archers to the production mix once you get barracks up...good general utility whackers, even if they move slower than your good troops), and of course, if faced with a large, menacing civ, steal Iron Working from anyone convenient, speed your Jags to the front, rush a barracks AT the front, and upgrade to swordsmen...you're ready to rock and roll. Horseback riding should see you augmenting your fast moving Jags with some horsemen...stuff like that...as you can, and as you are able (ie - if you've got enough Jags in the field for the current war effort and the continent is mapped, then in-between building settlers, pop out some other types of troops...this should be occuring approximately near the end of your second war....exact timeframe depending on map settings and in-game particulars.

3) Give strong consideration to NOT pulling all available techs from a civ you're bullying! If he's recently built a new city, rather that risk razing it, pull 1-2 of his best techs and demand the newly built city as part of the peace treaty! You get stronger, he gets weaker, and you get only the choicest of techs. You can pick the rest up on the next go 'round...that's one more city captured, and no losses to you!

4) MILITARY ROAD NETWORK!!!! That can't be emphasized enough. The chief advantage the Aztecs have is early mobility....use it! Terrorize enemy civs and steal hordes of workers. Use those stolen workers to build the roads to continue your ancient era terror campaign.

-=Vel=-
(more later...calls incoming!)

[Velociryx]

took too long to finish that post, and wound up cross-posting with a bunch of ya!

Arrian! Soon as I'm done here, I'm off to go get some religion! And a GREAT title, btw! (and I'll be giving that Japanese strat a go!)

Catt: Very true, good sir! I'm definitely not hawking the Aztec as the end all of civs--and by and large agree that the balancing of the civs is pretty good--but I *do* have a whale of a good time when I'm playing them, and under map conditions I encounter more often than not (Vel is not a big fan of 'pelago maps...UGH!..LOL), they're a pretty solid, if not downright scary civ...as you say though, get stuck alone or nearly so, and your main advantages evaporate.

-=Vel=-

[Capt Dizle]

Amusing that Vel the SMAC ultra builder, known for Doc: Defense, etc. has been remade into the Civ3 version of Ghengis Khan.

Were the Aztecs really a militaristic civ?

[Velociryx]

Yeah....the irony of that still brings a smile...heh!

And as to your question...ohhhh yes! Pretty much the whole Aztec Empire was built on the backs of tribes they conquered (later used against them to gruesome effect).

-=Vel=-
(Ghengis Vel? )

[Catt]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I see that Txurce beat me to the punch where the question of workers is concerned, and my answer echoes his. When I'm playing the Aztec...once I've got the continent mapped, there are quite literally TONS of workers out in the field...alone, unescorted...just sitting there like fruit on a vine. [ . . . . . ] If possible, I'll have a pair of jags shadow a warrior/settler team as he leaves the capitol, bound for parts unknown...that's the second shot in the war...take out the warrior, settler converts to two more free workers.

Vel & Txurce -- maybe I get too aggressive with my Jags -- I find myself attacking the first neighbor I come to, often while he has only 3 or 4 cities, and certainly before I map the whole continent. Can't get many workers that way, I just have always felt compelled to get the attack underway before someone starts building spearmen, swordsmen or horsies in numbers. Next time I play the Aztecs I'll delay war a bit longer, and put out a few tracking teams. (BTW, been playing Monarch - maybe at Diety my perceived worker drought goes away).

1) Maximize your ancient era worker captures whenever possible! This means shamelessly raiding and stealing the workers of other civs any time you see them. It also means keeping a sharp eye out for settler teams. If you're striking as early as you should be with the Green Terror, then the settlers will be guarded by a lone warrior in most cases. A pair of jags can *easily* take down the lone defender and net you a possible promotion and a pair of workers. Sweeeeet....

Question: do you honor the 20-turn peace treaty, or seize opportunities whenever they present themselves? I have been accused by others of being too sensitive to my diplomatic reputation, and rarely attack again within the 20-turn peace.

Vel is not a big fan of 'pelago maps...UGH!..LOL

I haven't found too many people who like archipelago maps! I don't much care for them -- they can really stunt the growth of all civs (AI and human). But I've had a lot of fun recently playing random everything (without even knowing what the random choices turn out to be until I actually explore the map), and muddling through with whatever gets thrown at me. Playing Zulu on an archipelago, lone civ on island, jungle-infested, lots of mountains, no barbarians (and no goody huts) is a fun challenge . . . the first time, at least

Catt

[Txurce]

JawaJocky, WCs upgrade to knights.

Catt, with regard to the "slave horde" issue, maybe a better way of looking at is that the Aztecs are in a better position than most to snag free help. But yes, in certain circumstances, it'll be hard to do so... which leaves them no worse off than any non-industrious civ.

I think that, UU aside, the Aztecs have a great set of traits... traits which admittedly drop to the middle of the pack in isolation. Who's better, in isolation? Religious civs who are industrious or scientific, in my opinion, and maybe scientific/industrious. That's not many.

I tend to respect the 20-turn rule, but break it if, like Arrian, I intend to leave no witnesses, if it's really tempting, or if it's hard to see the downside, given my relative strength.

Vel, I can see the later building of spearmen as a sort of perfectionism, and certainly the upgrading to swordsmen for the civ that's too big and tough. Even the archers make sense, for the occasional big enemy unit. But once horsemen arrive, wouldn't it make sense to tilt one way or the other: toward horsemen, or srticking with JWs? It seems to me that they do the same things, and it comes down to a P/E ratio.

[punkbass2000]

Ya know, I'm really glad Vel's back. For a while there, there weren't a lot of posts in the Strategy Forum, nor many that we're really more 'pure' strategies like these.

[Solver]

Thinking about how would this work in MP. Probably not. As soon as I find out I'm starting near the Aztecs, I'll go ultra-heavy on my defenses. Sparman here. He comes up with 5 jags, I get another spear here. So I'll suck the resources out of the Aztecs. Even better if I'm Greek.

I feel that Civ 3 MP will start with early rushes, so I'm gonna love the Greeks - one tech from Swordsmen and excellent defence.

[Txurce]

Solver, going extra heavy on your defenses means you have fewer resources to devote to expansion... either way, it's not good to start next to the Aztecs in MP, unless you're the civ you picked out: the Greeks. You're probably right that this is the safest civ to play in MP.

[Solver]

I was only meaning Greeks in my last post. Because then the resources I lose with building Hoplites are less than the resources that Aztecs will lose if trying to overcome me with Jaguars.

I guess Greeks could be the builder's choice in MP, for they're the only civ whom the others will try to avoid attacking in the Ancient Age. Oh, though I also loved the Romans for their early warfare.

[Nakar Gabab]

You know, I wonder how this strategy would work with the Zulu.

Think about it. It's a difference between exp/rel, which to many may not seem so great, but there is something to consider... expansionist's time to shine *is* the ancient era, right at the beginning of the game.

Think about it this way. The Impi is functionally identical to the jag: unrestricted double-movement ages before horses and far cheaper to boot. The Impi, however, is twice as expensive and attacks at 1... but the Impi also has twice the defensive ability.

With the Zulu, you can afford to be aggressive early on, combining archers (you're militaristic, remember?) and scouts (you're expansionist, remember?) to hit ANYTHING around you... since you're expansionist, you snag a goodie hut and always get something nice. How much you wanna bet you'll get Bronze Working? Exactly my point.

Once you have bronze working, start pumping out units. Setting up farms is even better for this, if you can manage. Get a barracks up if you can, then start pumping out Impis. If you're rushing, they still cost the same as a jag (20 shields is 20 shields, 10 of which are 'wasted' rushing a jag), and I find very often that there's only a 1-2 turn difference.

Additionally, you get archers and scouts, and the chance to get a settler from a goodie hut (and oh, woe on your foes if this happens). You sacrifice the wave-upon-wave cheap attacker mentality, but you can afford to play with a bit more finesse, as you'll have a numbers advantage on attack (if your archers can keep up), you'll be equal to any unit, even jags on offense (Impi and Jag are an even match if the Impi is attacking), and unparalleled on the defense.

Consequently, when you take a city, it stays taken. And getting reinforcements is just as easy as it is with the Aztecs... but your defenders are better.

I don't play the Zulu much, but I'm beginning to see how this strategy of Vel's could be put to VERY good use for other militaristic civs, not just the Aztecs. The only problem, of course, is UUs. The Chinese UU is an early medieval unit... not much use there, so they're stuck with archers. Rome? Commercial won't tide you over until Iron Working with this strat, so you either need to be lucky or skilled to extort the techs you need, and even then, legionaries come way too late to use in this manner. Germany? Nope, their UU is late industrial. Japan reaches its zenith (and oh what a zenith) later in the ancient/medieval period, and they don't start with archers (chariots are too limited and expensive to even compare to Jags or Impis).

So I think this strat works pretty much only with the Aztecs, and to a lesser extent (call it the Archer Rush Warrior Horde Hybrid strategy), the Zulu. It's a bit hard to say which will do better. I suspect the Aztec rush will hit faster, and is probably more likely to cripple civs with dangerous defensive UUs (Greece, Rome, other scientifics) before their time. But the Zulu will have greater variation, a possible tech lead, more cities, and generally fewer losses due to superior attack/defense. I wonder, however, if the Zulu can hit a spearman-equipped force before they can out-defend your Impis.

Well, at least you can pillage and fortify to besiege them with your Impis...

[Sava]

You make some good points Vel, but overall, the Aztecs suck in the long run. The Jag-bag-warrior is the second to worst unit in the game (next to warrior). The only thing its good for is taking cities early in the game and capturing workers. Once your rivals get spearmen, they become almost useless. It takes 4-5 to take out a spearman sometimes, where I could use 1-2 horsemen/swordsmen.

If you're playing on a tiny world pangea, then Aztecs might be decent for an early conquest victory. Other than that, they suck.

[punkbass2000]

uh, 1-2 horsemen/swordsmen costs just as much as 4-5 jags.

[Arrian]

1 horseman = 30 shields
1 swordsman = 30 shields
1 jag = 10 shields

So it makes sense. I'd rather use horsemen, but that's because I prefer to fight later. I want the AI to build me some cities, and I want the AI to produce a bunch of units for mine to kill. I want leaders.

-Arrian

[Lawrence of Arabia]

I used to always play Americans, but then yesterday I tried out the Greeks for the first time. All what I can say is "D@mn" Two hoplites in your city will stop anything (even a Schwarm of Fa.. I mean Jag warrios . The only problem I see is slow road construction and hardly any exploration.

1 jag warrior = 10 Shields
Jag Warrior = 1.1.2
1 hoplite = 20 shields
Hoplite = 1.3.1

It will take more than 2 jag warriors to take out a hoplite in a town with barracks. Therefore, it seems that it will cost you more to take the town. Of course, once you take it and eliminate the civ, you can say it was worth it. But you will need to spent more dinero to take a greek city, then any other civ city in the ancient era. Anceitn era combat betwen these two civs may also result in a golden age for BOTH of them.

[Gen.Dragolen]

Vel,

It must be your luck of the draw with starting positions that makes this tactic work: I have tried the Aztecs at Regent a couple of times and have started in the middle of Jungles surround by deserts. And to cap it off, the neighbours were always other Militaristic Computer Civs (CC). I found that the Jags, while nice as scouts and barbarian killers, they performed less than admirabley in combat against spearmen.

As it is written, "...5 to 1, your chances of victory are even" so I tried using 10 jags in a raiding party against a new town in a jungle (Dyes all around, and they beat my settler there by 1 turn) and he had only 1 regular spearman defending. I lost 10 jags and the CC got an elite spearman for my troubles...

This episode was repeated a little later when all of my neighbours formed alliances against me (all 4 of them on a smallish continent on a standard map) and their swordsmen came to discuss what they were going to do with my capital after I was dead. They did their usual number on spearmen in a walled town. The end of the Aztecs in that game came around 0BC. Starting your assualt has to be as early as possible.

Granted this was before the 1.21 patch, but I suspect that I should have forgone building a second settler settler and just have a stream of jags coming out and heading down the road to where ever the nearest neighbour was found. But to have the kind of combat successes you seem to have - I have yet to see more than 6 GL's in the last 6 months of playing (at about 1 game every 7 to 10 days). And that was constantly being at war with most of the neighbours until about 1000 AD in most cases. The best results were with the Japanese, when I got two out of a world war situation, both from samurai. Domo arigato.

One thing that really cramped production for the Aztecs was the need for a temple off the start: I was getting rioting before I could finish a temple in any city I setup. Score one more reason for pop rushing everything.

Armed with the wisdom you have imparted, I will attempt to unleash the jaguar on an unsuspecting world...


D.