June 10, 2002, 17:22
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#1
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Emperor
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New Artillery Unit Idea (Super Cannon)
In World War I, the Germans built a large immobile cannon that rained shells in Paris. Would this be a good idea for Civ III? It would have 0 movement, but maybe 5 or 6 bombing range, and it would be about three times as expensive as a standard artillery.
Also, I think Iraq was building one during the Iran War....
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June 10, 2002, 18:18
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#2
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Prince
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not a bad idea at all
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June 10, 2002, 18:57
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#3
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Prince
Local Time: 12:18
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Good idea.
But should it be possible to move it between cities with a sort of rebase mission? Or are you suggesting a unit that will only stay put and not move from the city. I ask because you'd eventually want to redeploy it closer to the front line, after you push the front line further into their territory.
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June 10, 2002, 19:15
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#4
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King
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You could always give it Airdrop and Immobile.
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June 10, 2002, 20:46
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#5
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Prince
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The Germans made several super (rail) guns, though the only one I can remember was called Big Bertha. They could move them, it just move very slooowly. I'd just give it 5-10 range and limit it to travelling on roads only. They geramns were able to move them, it just took a whole lot. They were mostly innefective but were useful as a terror tool.
__________________
"Every good communist should know political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao tse-Tung
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June 10, 2002, 20:59
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#6
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Prince
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I posted an idea for a great wonder: "Saddam's Supergun" a while ago. Available with rocketry and computers, the gun stays in one city (where its built), has infinate range and is leathal (weather or not leathal bombard is on or off).
Many scientist think it possible to shoot satellites into space with such a gun. If so, you could shoot a satellite, which becomes a reentry vehicle and strikes a target on the other side of the globe. This is essentially what ICBMs do now, onlt they use a rocket motor to get into space.
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June 10, 2002, 22:17
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#7
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Firaxis Games Programmer/Designer
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I have a problem with this idea. Sure, they've built super-guns in the past, but they've also built a lot of things. Should they include flamethrowing Pikemen or something? Of course not. The super guns of the past haven't had an impact upon things, so why should you be able to build something in Civ that would have such a great impact as a super gun? They were far too expensive to build and maintain for the results they produced. The massive German rail gun durin World War I required a crew of over 100 men to maintain, which is incredibly inefficient.
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June 10, 2002, 23:23
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#8
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Emperor
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The gun the Germans had in WWII had a HUGE impact. It killed thousands over a period of months. It was one of the first terrorist type attacks aimed at civilians. There was a whole special on the History Channel about it.
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June 10, 2002, 23:32
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#9
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Firaxis Games Programmer/Designer
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Remember, each unit is actually a collection of individual units. That means, 1 < Super guns per unit. Such a thing would have to be a small wonder due to the incredible cost associated. The London Gun itself had no impact upon the course of the war. Yes it killed people, lots of things in wars do. As you said, it was a terror weapon... but did that make the British armies run from battle demoralized because of it? Of course not, it had no military impact nor a significant ability to cause population or building damage (on the scale that a bomber wing can, for instance), which is why I disagree with its inclusion.
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June 11, 2002, 00:32
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#10
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Prince
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Trip- I disagree. It wouldn't be useless. During World War 1, the Germans attack the Belgians at the forts of Liege got the crap beat out of them. Then they brought in 2 big berthas and bombarded the heck out of the Belgains and took the forts. If there was a unit like this, I think maybe it should be extremely expensive have a bombardment range of 5-10, and here's where my idea comes in. It could only travel on railroads just like the big berthas.
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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June 11, 2002, 00:37
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#11
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King
Local Time: 02:18
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Re: New Artillery Unit Idea (Super Cannon)
Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
In World War I, the Germans built a large immobile cannon that rained shells in Paris. Would this be a good idea for Civ III? It would have 0 movement, but maybe 5 or 6 bombing range, and it would be about three times as expensive as a standard artillery.
Also, I think Iraq was building one during the Iran War....
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yOU CAN already beat the crap out of the AI with normal artillery and naval bombardments. We don't need a supergun, unless we all sign a contract that Soren will program the AI to use the supergun effectively and we can't turn around and whine to him about the AI being TOO powerful.
Sheesh. People never learn.
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June 11, 2002, 09:20
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#13
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Firaxis Games Programmer/Designer
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Quote:
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Originally posted by johncmcleod
Trip- I disagree. It wouldn't be useless. During World War 1, the Germans attack the Belgians at the forts of Liege got the crap beat out of them. Then they brought in 2 big berthas and bombarded the heck out of the Belgains and took the forts. If there was a unit like this, I think maybe it should be extremely expensive have a bombardment range of 5-10, and here's where my idea comes in. It could only travel on railroads just like the big berthas.
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Are we talking rail guns, or super guns? If you're talking rail guns, then they're basically large siege guns. Big Bertha was a large, rail-mounted 420mm cannon, and useful for sieges. Something like the London Gun was useless, which is what I'm talking about.
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June 11, 2002, 11:40
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#14
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Prince
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Maybe what is needed is the opposite, not big guns but cheap little guns-- mortars. Only way I can think of implimenting in game would be to have additional unit similar to mech inf but now mech mortars, same def as mec inf but with offense have bombard capability.
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June 11, 2002, 13:37
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#15
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Chieftain
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I think its a good idea, but should only have a range of 3 squares and only travel on railroads.
A more pressing idea that should be considered is that of giving artillery a "Flak" Anti-Air capability, so you don't get pummeled to bits just because you've not invented flight yet.
I'm not saying it should be as powerful as a fighter, but you should be able to respond to bombing somehow rather than to just sit there and take it.
The percentage of hit probability could increase by 5% with every gun stationed in a square, up to a maximum of say 5 guns.
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June 11, 2002, 13:48
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#16
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Prince
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There are so many more important types of units not represented, a super gun would be far down on my list to include. Civ is very broad and general ... highly specific unique things seem kind of out of place to me.
Thats just how I see it though.
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June 11, 2002, 14:05
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#17
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Warlord
Local Time: 21:18
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i have to agree with trip and the others on the usefulness of this gun. right now the AI hardly uses artillery in an efficent manner and to add this weapon to the arsenal of existing units would just make it that much easier to defeat the AI. i could see the weapon as a neat "terror" weapon if it could fire various payloads. as a stand alone weapon though, it would be useless.
there are other units not represented in this game that i would rather see come to life like a mobile AA unit or satellites that can "see" the board.
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June 11, 2002, 15:47
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#18
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
The gun the Germans had in WWII had a HUGE impact. It killed thousands over a period of months. It was one of the first terrorist type attacks aimed at civilians. There was a whole special on the History Channel about it.
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But for the amount of time and resources it required, it wasn't really worth it. And terrorist attacks tend to strengthen the resolve of the enemy, not weaken it. Just look at the US today, after Sept. 11.
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June 11, 2002, 15:57
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#19
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Prince
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Martock
satellites that can "see" the board.
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I clamour every chance I get that there needs to be a satellite network small wonder that allows for global recon ability. The lack of such is inexcuseable. We can send spaceships to AC but can't see what's on the other side of the world.
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June 11, 2002, 16:42
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#20
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Emperor
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I really don't give a crap about the AI, I just want to bomb the comp with a super gun.
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June 11, 2002, 23:08
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#21
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Prince
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Yes, I agree it may be not useful, but still wouldn't it be fun?
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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June 11, 2002, 23:32
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#22
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Firaxis Games Programmer/Designer
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You... could always make one yourself...
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June 12, 2002, 00:39
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#23
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Prince
Local Time: 18:18
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I will. How?!?!
__________________
"The first man who, having fenced off a plot of land, thought of saying, 'This is mine' and found people simple enough to believe him was the real founder of civil society. How many crimes, wars, murders, how many miseries and horrors might the human race had been spared by the one who, upon pulling up the stakes or filling in the ditch, had shouted to his fellow men: 'Beware of listening to this imposter; you are lost if you forget the fruits of the earth belong to all and that the earth belongs to no one." - Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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June 12, 2002, 01:35
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#24
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Settler
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This is a reply I made in the editor additions thread. I posted it here because I think It applies to the topic(cannons) and all the ideas I had in a way were interrelated. Sorry if you saw these before:
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I've just been thinking of ways you can expand the editor to do wonderful things in scenarios, even if they are unrealistic for the main game. I'm not asking these be included in the main game, just some ideas to make the editor far more expanisive:
"Atomic Cannon"- What about a trigger that makes a bombard unit launch nuclear shells, with the same damage as a ICBM or Tac Nuke? While something you would never use in the main game, it make for a intresting player-made scenario set in the future.
Expand the max. range for bombard and air units. Also, would it be possible to give a minimum range for bombard? That would be really helpful. 8 spaces for max range is just far too small.
Manhattan Project/Wonder as a unit prequisite: I was thinking about the MP wonder and came up with an intresting idea. Instead of hardcoding only one option(every civ builds nukes) what if you could make a wonder and use a trigger to toggle what buildings/units you can make with it. This way, things like the Apollo Program and Manhattan Project can be changed to build other superunits/structures or the player can have the option to add a whole different wonder. Let this be a great and small wonder option please.
I'm sure other people can think of other interesting toggles. Lets try to make the editor as open-ended as possible, so we can come up with all sorts of insane ideas!
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June 12, 2002, 08:08
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#25
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Prince
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I like this idea. But personally I've always like to idea of building units with 0 movment and are purley for defence of a city.
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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow. As surely as night follows day.
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June 12, 2002, 08:18
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#26
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Prince
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i made an anti aircraft missile in my mod (see sig), which essentially will be used solely for air defence and replace the ineffectual SAM site.
it works by being situated in a city (since it is immobile, with the air defence and rebase missions only), and will target anything that attacks within the 2 square city radius.
it has a good chance of destroying the attacking aircraft, however, it will always be destroyed much like the cruise missile is now. Voila.
the Ai was always hopeless at defending against human air-raids, so this kind of gives the AI a helping hand.
Unlike what Sava said earlier, i don't believe anything should be modded or added into the game that the AI will not use at least as effectively as the human.
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June 12, 2002, 08:28
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#27
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Emperor
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I agree with what you guys are saying about the AI not using it. But if Firaxis were to add it, I assume they would take care of that.
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June 12, 2002, 09:57
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#28
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Warlord
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the idea is interesting but now i'm thinking there might be another problem. IF the AI could use it with some sense, might it OVER USE it? as it stands now, the AI does little in the way of cleaning up pollution in it's own lands and in the game i'm currently playing, using nukes is just another way to hinder my inevitable march across the world. no ICBM's yet but tact nukes tend to fly the moment the are given life...er, launch codes. i'd be afraid to hand the AI something that will simply rain death, destruction, and pollution across my lands willy-nilly.
if it could be used in a manner that it could affect ONE tile instead of nine, i might be convinced that it's a good idea. personally, i think tact nukes and ICBM's do the job just fine.
Last edited by Martock; June 12, 2002 at 12:22.
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June 12, 2002, 12:09
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#29
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Sava
I agree with what you guys are saying about the AI not using it. But if Firaxis were to add it, I assume they would take care of that.
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If that were the case, then the AI would do a much better job of using quite a number of units better than it does now. I'm sure Soren would love to have an AI that could easily match wits with a human player, but computer technology is still to limited to allow that to happen just yet.
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June 12, 2002, 12:12
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#30
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Martock
the idea is interesting but now i'm thinking there might be another problem. IF the AI could use it with some sense, might it OVER USE it?
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There's always that possibility. I created some colorless land units for my game and there have been times that I regreted making them. At least they keep me on my toes.
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