It's a Mad Mad Scxn Game!

[Straybow]

• Delay (exploring but no tipping) to give the AI ahead start
• Bigger map
• No Science Wonders to keep AI competitive
• Bigger map
• Canals encouraged
• Bigger map
• Not all one continent
• Did I say "Bigger map" yet?

Mad Mad Alphabetical -SciWoW -CityBribe +Canals +BigMap roolz:

Alphabetical means name your founded cities in rough (first letter) alpha order, as an organizational aid. Don't worry about TANSTAAFL coming after Tunafish; don't feel you must rename captured cities.

No Science Wonders (GL, Cope's, Newton's) assures that we will not grossly outpace our competitors. The size of continents should be a limit to early expansion as well.

No City Bribing (modified) applies to core AI cities. The exception: occasional loner AI city (from wandering Settlers the AI likes to send out, or Adv Tribe, etc) far from their core is fair game. Invasion actions shall be limited to one (1) attempt to sabotage walls (or another improvement) and unlimited production sabotage attempts.

Think of city bribing as the equivalent of cultural flipping. No way should core cities do that. In the Persian wars only one Greek city was willing to flip, and it was (IIRC) on the Ionian coast rather than on the Balkan peninsula. Isolated towns are another matter though.

When invading you have one opportunity to find somebody willing to betray the city. That was usually limited to a gate captain or tower officer who could then subvert his subordinates or eliminate the objectors.

Finding rebels to sabotage production or slipping in with Special Ops teams isn't limited, but of course it can only work once per turn.

Play begins on p.2

[Messer Niccolò]

Agree:
* no hut tipping!

Disagree
* Map size is good we don't need to increase

Other Suggestions
* Island map
* because of the islands and of the limited number of cities canals will be discouraged (however exceptions for Straybow Dynasty "the Canalbuilders"can be made )
* Max number of cities built (the others will be taken by AI) Sorry SGs no ICS
* no AI city bribe/destroy imrovement (it could be harder to break these walls) ... and LaFayette won't be happy

[Julius Brenzaida]

In this case, I suggest MGE and a gigamap of 143x299
For the other propositions, I don't know. Maybe that an amnesic succession game should be fun. Each player doesn't tell the others what they've done. It should be tougher to go in any direction. And it would silent the old farts and their cursed politburo !

And why not delay the start. We could press enter until 1ad. Delayed and amnesic succession game, does this sound good to anyone

[Straybow]

Don't forget the random part: who plays and how many turns will be decided by some unpredictable means.

Seriously, the "accelerated start" option is 2000 BC, IIRC. Where were the Scousers at that point, 5 cities (one by hut)? 40-ish turns (depend on # players) no tipping, or maybe each player would get to tip one hut, just to feel the sense of accomplishment.

Mad 2.42 was on a medium map (50x80). It wouldn't have to be large (75x120), a custom size betwixt would be my vote..

Scouses, what were the settings you used? Or did you not customize at all?

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I do want to toss up an organizational suggestion. Naming of cities should be in roughly alphabetical order. One or two A names, one or two B names, etc.

That way when using the arrow keys in the city window to scroll through (my preferred means of mgmt) you know where the heck you are.

Well, it is past this night-shifter's bedtime. Return scheduled for 9pm forum time. That's my input; I'll go by whatever the rest of you decide. Let the Scouses get the ball rolling since there's two of them & less likely to disappear for a day or so as I have.

[Mercatia]

MGE??? Ok you all have fun I've got to find another copy of MGE somewhere.

[Julius Brenzaida]

Mercatia, MGE is only required for gigamaps, otherwise 2.42 is fine
The MGE AI is a little tougher, but it doesn't matter too much

Straybow, for my delayed start, I was suggestion, we didn't play a move until 1ad to allow the AI civs to grow a little. It could be fun.

And what about my "amnesic" succession game. It has never been tried

But I would gladly join with other rules, too.

[Straybow]

Well, considering that at 1 AD the other civs in Mad 2.42 had size 5 capitals, maybe that isn't so absurd. One possibility: do an accelerated start, remove the city, techs, and units, then save as a scenario.

[Scouse Gits]

Most of the suggestions above are geared to making the game considerably harder for we poor human players.

Why?

Those of us that regularly play at Deity already have our own 'tricks' to make the game more enjoyable for ourselves - I normally play on a large world with a small land mass and archipelagoes - suits me.

Several of the players in the recent Mad Succession Game had never succeeded at Deity or played there infrequently. For them this sort of 'challenge' would possibly prove too much.

I don't wish to be a spectre at a feast, but I do believe that this discussion is not going in a useful direction.

However, StrayBow, it is your thread and I shall now bow out...

SG[1]

[Messer Niccolò]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

I don't wish to be a spectre at a feast, but I do believe that this discussion is not going in a useful direction.


SG[1]

... let's start a new game then!

[Scouse Gits]

For my part I like playing on large worlds. I would like to win via spaceship for a change...it's a long time since I've built one. I have some interesting starts at 4000BC which I've never played. Anyway over to you Straybow...what do you suggest?

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SG(2)

[Straybow]

Shall we hear from some of the less experienced Deity level players how much of a challenge they want? Don't want them to feel out of their depth. Hello, Mercatia, et al.?

If we have a medium land mass/varied map we'll not have so much territory to explore afoot/ahoof anyway, so we can do a normal start. Large map or custom size somewhat bigger than medium (say, 60x100). But if you have an interesting start on a medium that fits the bill, SG, OK.

No comments on my semi-alphabetical names suggestion? I would still say "no Science Wonders," ie, Cope's and Isaac's (Seti if we get that far). Gotta give the sufferin' AI a chance here. We'll leave more radical experiments for later.

Colossus is, I'm afraid, an addiction stronger than canals.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

When I play hardcore ICS, Straybow, my cities are named SSC, 001, 002, 003, 004, etc... naming alphabetically would have more or less the same effect?

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
For my part I like playing on large worlds. I would like to win via spaceship for a change...it's a long time since I've built one. I have some interesting starts at 4000BC which I've never played. Anyway over to you Straybow...what do you suggest?

------------------

SG(2)

Hmmm. For me, on deity, I nearly always win by spaceship (when I win ). I win by conquest on small maps, just because there are so few cities to conquer.

For me, a large map, spaceship game is a 'been there, done that'. Large map, conquest, is another story. I agree that we don't need to make the game too hard. We wound up with a really, really poor excuse for an AI in the Mad Game - I don't know why, but I don't think we can count on that again. I would support a rule to prevent bribing of cities, though.

I'd really like to try an archipeligo, gigamap, conquest game, but that would require MGE or ToT, and not everyone has one or the other.

I'll probably go along with what everyone else likes... but put me near the end of the list if we're playing crazy-no-wonders-delayed-start styles...

STYOM

[Scouse Gits]

I'm against delayed starts and a ban on huts. For a learning experience I think the game should be played with all options open. Let's have a little more discussion about it

-----------------------

SG(2)

[Messer Niccolò]

Ok, we can try a new "Mad" game just to test if the AI was dumb or if it can't stand a bunch of mad players

[Straybow]

I'm against delayed starts and a ban on huts. For a learning experience I think the game should be played with all options open.

Already ceded. OK with no Science Wonders? What about map options?

[Scouse Gits]

Large map - no restrictions. In a succession game each player has a chance to set an agenda for 12 or so turns and it's best if there are no boundaries. I remember a game about two years ago somebody was pleased he/she had built the Great Library! To avoid useless techs on the fast track to Democracy, (and to make a point) SG[1] and I destroyed the city!

Old Farts with no manners!

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SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Old Farts with no manners!

----------------------------

SG(2)

I don't claim to have any manners either. I appreciate advice, naturally... but I go my own way, so far as what I'm focusing on during my turns. Which is (usually) founding more cities and improving my standing on the powergraph via conquest. That's the fun of succession games.

I agree that a large map, and a more 'normal' AI, will probably make the game more challenging than the Mad game was.

STYOM

[Straybow]

For a learning experience I think the game should be played with all options open.

…somebody …built the GL! To avoid useless techs on the fast track to Democracy, (and to make a point) SG[1] and I destroyed the city!

Those statements are somewhat contradictory. I think reactions like that are going a bit too far. I know I don't want to have to spend 75% of my reign undoing what the schmo before me did. I'd want some limited coordination.

Make the reigns longer if you want more opportunity to accomplish something within your time. 20 turns would do. It would be educational, for the ICSers and the Perfectionists, if some mode of operation could balance the two? A core of developed cities for healthy non-Wonder commerce with a sprawl of lesser cities as a means of controlling the other civs' expansion.

PS, Yes, we should include GL in the Science Wonders if said are to be excluded. I just never build it, so it didn't occur to me to list it. The point is that any of the experienced OCC players here can clobber the AI intellectually. I want the other civs to have a chance to pose a threat.

[La Fayette]

If we agree that the game should be both mad and educative, the old farts should be allowed to send a smilie once in a while and the level of difficulty should not be Deity +5.
IMO a nice delay, as suggested by Julius, is fine (and I don't care playing without vet spies or with both arms tied behind my back), but the opinion of the less experienced players matters (remember Raz playing crusades ).

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by La Fayette
If we agree that the game should be both mad and educative, the old farts should be allowed to send a smilie once in a while and the level of difficulty should not be Deity +5.
IMO a nice delay, as suggested by Julius, is fine (and I don't care playing without vet spies or with both arms tied behind my back), but the opinion of the less experienced players matters (remember Raz playing crusades ).

I don't think I'm totally inexperienced, but I'm not on the level of you (LaFayette), and the Gits... among others

If you want competition from the AI... how about a custom map? I recall the MGE succession game a little while back that started on a 1-square island. How about a game on a world map, but starting on Greenland? That should give the AI a decent start in a more fun way than artificially handicapping ourselves would do.

I know I'm repeating myself, but I would prefer a no-bribe or no-howies type of 'rule' to a no-science wonders 'rule'. Without science wonders, the game can go 2 ways (and perhaps more): 1) ICS-conquest, and 2) heavy duty trade (for science bonuses). Now, this is Straybow's game, and based on recent posts, Straybow is very into trade micromanagement. We are entitled to our preferences, of course... but in the Mad game, when faced with the option of railroading some optimum trade routes, or going out and sacking some Mongol, Spanish, and Babylonian cities - I didn't have to think for 5 seconds to decide which would be more fun for me

With some degree of cooperation among ourselves... why not dispense with rules and preset goals and just let the game take shape as it will?

STYOM

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

I don't think I'm totally inexperienced, but I'm not on the level of you (LaFayette), and the Gits... among others

If you want competition from the AI... how about a custom map? I recall the MGE succession game a little while back that started on a 1-square island. How about a game on a world map, but starting on Greenland?

STYOM

1) Thank you
Believe me, if I had a choice, I would rather be 40 years younger and need experience

2) I was one of those who played that game, the so-called Heroic Epic. I confess it was great fun (Julius offered a nice gigamap ).

[Julius Brenzaida]

LaFayette, yes the gigamap game was great. I am currently working on a new one, with the oceans (pacific especially) at the real size. I hope to finish it (bit by bit) before the start of the Tour de France. We could christen it with a succession game, then. But rememeber it's only for MGE

[Julius Brenzaida]

Well, this is a mad mad discussion. We’re going in every direction.
Straybow, as the gits, I am not conviced by too complicated rules. Maybe to make the best of your ideas, a scenario would be more fitting (I would gladly play one).
While open to many suggestions, I propose we not only talk but also act.
I’ve started an “amnesic succession game” thread. I like this strange idea. Let’s see if someone else does.
But of course that I shall keep on following this thread carefully.

[Julius Brenzaida]

Oups, I've just seen the Gits have also started another one. Please join both of them

[Straybow]

Last game only 2 civs kinda kept up to us, and even without extensive city bribing they would not have posed much threat. In my experience, if an AI falls behind early it will languish (boring). If given a chance to get ahead a human player can easily catch up. Even multiple confused scxn players can catch up.

No Science Wonders (GL, Cope's, Newton's) just assures that catching up won't be too soon, nor shall we grossly outpace them once we get there.

No City Bribing (modified) applies to core AI cities. The exception: occasional loner AI city (from wandering Settlers the AI likes to send out, or Adv Tribe, etc) far from their core is fair game. Invasion actions shall be limited to one (1) attempt to sabotage walls (or another improvement) and unlimited production sabotage attempts.

[Straybow]

Alphabetical means name your founded cities in rough (first letter) alpha order, as an organizational aid. Don't worry about TANSTAAFL coming after Tunafish; don't feel you must rename captured cities.

No Science Wonders (GL, Cope's, Newton's) assures that we will not grossly outpace our competitors. The size of continents should be a limit to early expansion as well.

No City Bribing (modified) applies to core AI cities. The exception: occasional loner AI city (from wandering Settlers the AI likes to send out, or Adv Tribe, etc) far from their core is fair game. Invasion actions shall be limited to one (1) attempt to sabotage walls (or another improvement) and unlimited production sabotage attempts.

Who's In?

1) Straybow
2) Julius
3) STYOM
4) SG[1] delayed

Hello, hello? Anybody else?

[Julius Brenzaida]

Straybow, wouldn'it be simpler and clearer if you'd start another thread with your rules at the top of the 1st post

[Straybow]

The idiots were out in force tonight—no time for Civving.
I may start wee hours of Sunday am, again depending on work.

[Straybow]

We find a goodly spot to lay the foundations of our capital Avalon in 3900, We find some minerals, 50g then 25g. A band of warriors in funny rattling things towed behind donkeys are greatly impressed with the prophecies of the Once and Future King.

We have discovered Bronze, which allows us to tickle production of Settlers a little. Unfortunately, when we build them there are too many units for the laborers to support. We return the Warriors guarding Avalon to the labor pool, adding to the work on a great statue of Arthur.

We have founded Abington. Perhaps we should speed production of Warriors to maintain order in Avalon when it grows.

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I wanted to found the second city so I played past 3000. Feel free to do stuff like that.

[Julius Brenzaida]

I have downloaded and will play as soon as possible, trying not to break THE RULES