On the Utility and Use of Marines - Page 3

Ekanata · October 9, 2002, 06:08

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay
Marines in the real world DO NOT engage in amphibious assaults directly against well-defended cities. Rather, they go after a relatively undefended stretch of beach to establish a beachhead to bring in heavier forces.

The reason marines are used so rarely in Civ 3 is that there is almost always undefended beach available to land on without having to use them. Thus, their rightful role of securing a beachhead to bring in heavier forces is denied them.

Nathan

For his idea to work, I think non-amphibious should have their defence rating lowered by the turn they land (recovered on the next turn), making them an easy target for nearby enemy unit. Therefore, even modern armor and mech inf should be landed together with marine to avoid being ambushed by 'near by' enemy (btw, they already have railroad)

And for this scenario, I think marine should be a defender instead of an attacker.

PrinceBimz · October 19, 2002, 19:15

Some good stuff here!

Ekanata · October 20, 2002, 22:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Ekanata

...to avoid being ambushed by 'near by' enemy (btw, they already have railroad)

And to cut enemy's railroad, we can bring in bombers, or battleships

bbaws · October 28, 2002, 03:39

They also constitute a superb rapid reaction force in conjunction with paratroops and helos.

bbaws · October 30, 2002, 15:41

The game I've got running at the moment is up to 1981, into future tech 3. I'm still building marines. In conjunction with mech inf armies landed with a nice pile of cruise missiles they really are earning their keep as far as GL creation goes.

Hopdevil007 · March 7, 2003, 14:44

i personally rarely use marines except in conjunction with helecopters. The marine has a higher attack than the infantry making it better for an offensive helocpter deployment. generally using marines in this "airborn" fashion is only good for one thing against an equally or more scientifically advanced civ. by deploying the marines farther away from your city radius it gives you a few extra tiles deeper to plunder in enemy territory. using this against cavaly and rifleman defences can have spectacular results. when fast moving cavalry units try to advance to behind your lines they will be thinned out as they pass by your marines, making them easy clean-up for the slower moving marines. if underdeveloped nations exist in the game i usually keep 15 marines, 5 infantry, and 5 helo's on standy incase they get any ideas. this force can be quicky deployed and reinforced. the only downside is that it can only be deployed withing four tiles of a city radius. but once the first city is taken, its open season. ive also used this to avoid enemy naval units in island hoping situations. mostly i use this as a vanity. i like the idea of deploying with helocopters and i usually find room for it in my defense budget. i would like it and use it more if you could deploy helos on carriers or some other kind of naval unit.

Mad Bomber · March 8, 2003, 03:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
I think in MP we'll see massive invasion forces that dwarf any contemplated here.

Surprise attack:
20 Battleships
4-6 Destroyers looking for Subs
6-8 Carriers, each with 1 JF and 3 Bombers
Redundancy:
16 Marines for a direct attack
16 Infantry and 32 Tanks for a Hill landing

And vice versa: Homeland defense will be a much more critical issue...

Back OT: I still haven't used Marines in a meaningful way.

But I will. Semper Fi.

my last invasion force consisted of:
15 carriers
25 Battleships
32 Destroyers
16 Nuc subs
90 Air units (most F-15's)
41 transprots (full)
120 MA's
60 MI's
6 Armies
50 (or so) Radar Arty.
23 marines
21 Paratroopers

An Invasion should not be done half-a$$ed, When your enemy has 100+ MI's and about 50 MA's you had better be ready to come with your entire inventory.

Cant wait to unleash an invasion like this on a player in MP.

Marines are only usefull in getting the invasion force ashore or attacking lightly defended targets.

johncmcleod · July 5, 2003, 23:25

I didn't read the entire thread, so if this has already been stated I'm sorry. I'm also sorry for bumping the thread. I know how a lot of people on Apolyton hate having to read a useless paragraph.

What if there isn't any elevated terrain very close to the city? This is common. And if it is 2,3, or 4 tiles away from the city, during the time you are moving there the opponent has plenty of time to get to your stack of units and attack/bombard the crap out of it. And in multiplayer, landing a force of infantry and cavalry, who also don't have as good attack, near the city and possibly with no defense bonuses, will not work. The stack will get killed. And with marines, you can take multiple cities and airlift a ton of units to those cities in ONE TURN. This would be a big help.

CerberusIV · July 6, 2003, 05:15

One thing I have noticed since patching to 1.21 is that one tile islands are now appearing on my maps (standard size, continents).

In the last game I played into the modern age, the babs had a city on such an island defended by 2 riflemen. Marines were the only way to take that city (and the babs) out.

Panag · July 6, 2003, 08:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

my last invasion force consisted of:
15 carriers
25 Battleships
32 Destroyers
16 Nuc subs
90 Air units (most F-15's)
41 transprots (full)
120 MA's
60 MI's
6 Armies
50 (or so) Radar Arty.
23 marines
21 Paratroopers

An Invasion should not be done half-a$$ed, When your enemy has 100+ MI's and about 50 MA's you had better be ready to come with your entire inventory.

Cant wait to unleash an invasion like this on a player in MP.

Marines are only usefull in getting the invasion force ashore or attacking lightly defended targets.

hi ,

great , if that is spotted around the corner , in a nice little stack , .....

its nuke time

have a nice day

Mad Bomber · July 7, 2003, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

great , if that is spotted around the corner , in a nice little stack , .....

its nuke time

have a nice day

Do that and say goodbye to 25-40 cities and all resources cut. Go ahead and make my day!

Panag · July 7, 2003, 13:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Do that and say goodbye to 25-40 cities and all resources cut. Go ahead and make my day!

hi ,

well it still is the best way to get rid of large invasion fleets , ...... and the moment you move from military to civilian targets , .....

have a nice day

TheArsenal · July 7, 2003, 14:04

Don't use marines much. But like them when I do. I find (on large/huge maps at least) the AI considers seaboard cities close to the poles and/or far from rival borders relatively "safe" and that they are as a rule relatively under-defended. This makes staging two front invasions far easier (I always try to fight the AI on at least two fronts) because a transport of marines finds the third defender or so in these cities to be a fairly obsolete, easily defeated unit. With proper numbers, I can take and fortify three or four staging cities on the civ's backside and rush build airports for the continuation of the war.

Now, if someone can only convince me paratroopers are worth the build.

I agree with some of the rumbling about warfare in the modern age. I play with UN and spaceship victories turned off, so some of this is my fault. But once I am at the point I can build MA, I have so many cities, with such high production, it becomes a game sheer brute force: build a ton of MAs and go smashing my way into cities by sheer superior numbers.

Panag · July 7, 2003, 14:07

Quote:

Originally posted by TheArsenal
Don't use marines much. But like them when I do. I find (on large/huge maps at least) the AI considers seaboard cities close to the poles and/or far from rival borders relatively "safe" and that they are as a rule relatively under-defended. This makes staging two front invasions far easier (I always try to fight the AI on at least two fronts) because a transport of marines finds the third defender or so in these cities to be a fairly obsolete, easily defeated unit. With proper numbers, I can take and fortify three or four staging cities on the civ's backside and rush build airports for the continuation of the war.

Now, if someone can only convince me paratroopers are worth the build.

I agree with some of the rumbling about warfare in the modern age. I play with UN and spaceship victories turned off, so some of this is my fault. But once I am at the point I can build MA, I have so many cities, with such high production, it becomes a game sheer brute force: build a ton of MAs and go smashing my way into cities by sheer superior numbers.

hi ,

para's , well lets see , you have a border city and like to know if your enemy is building up to attack you , send one in to see what moves around , ........

great to land on key strategic locations like mountains or hills , or just to block that important rescource , .....

have a nice day

Jaybe · July 8, 2003, 01:38

An effective (and FUN) use of marines is to:
1) Bombard coastal tile improvements
2) When workers come to repair tile improvements, take workers with marines, loading captured workers onto transports
3) Support marines (if desired) with MI

After a few times of this, the AI will cease repairing improvements. Whether this is because they have "learned" not to lose more workers or because they HAVE no more workers ....

Of course, your raiding forces will more likely survive if opposing ground forces are being distracted by other ground action.

Note: If your transport(s) were full of marines and supporting troops and you put captured workers on them, you may not have room to extract your troops from the raiding site.

Panag · July 8, 2003, 04:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
An effective (and FUN) use of marines is to:
1) Bombard coastal tile improvements
2) When workers come to repair tile improvements, take workers with marines, loading captured workers onto transports
3) Support marines (if desired) with MI

After a few times of this, the AI will cease repairing improvements. Whether this is because they have "learned" not to lose more workers or because they HAVE no more workers ....

Of course, your raiding forces will more likely survive if opposing ground forces are being distracted by other ground action.

Note: If your transport(s) were full of marines and supporting troops and you put captured workers on them, you may not have room to extract your troops from the raiding site.

hi ,

indeed Soren made the AI to learn , agreed only up to a certain level ( héy this game has to fit on one disk ) , but indeed this is one of the things the AI learns very fast , ...... if you where to come back 100 turns later to the same spot and try to pull the same stund you shall be in for a big surprise , .......

as for the room on the transports , some of the guys you put on the beaches shall get killed , ..... always send a couple infantry along to protect them , .....

have a nice day

Sitting Bull · July 8, 2003, 10:59

Hello,

People generally compare marines and tanks for simplistic reasons, and you have broken out of that rut and seen a unique strategic maneuver, and wrote a good article, but a better functional comparison can be made with bombers. The trick when invading a heavily railroaded AI opponent is to bomb out the rail and road net everywhere in the vicinity of the landing point; the use of marines you describe leaves you somewhat less vulnerable to the next-turn counterattack, but use of bombers will make you completely immune to it. You will actually ambush the comp, not the other way around. Bombers are not great at hitting the troops in a city, but quite good at knocking out tile improvements. Two or three carriers loaded with bombers will just shred apart everyting in the vicinity in a few turns, then give you the firepower to blow away the counterattack on open ground.

On the subject of real-world invasions, we have only WW2/Korea for reference, 50+ years ago, and D-Day or Iwo Jima are unlikely to be fought again for many reasons, hence I do not concern myself over modding marines to be competitive with mech inf. [I, too, rarely play the modern age anyway.]

Mad Bomber · July 9, 2003, 18:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe
An effective (and FUN) use of marines is to:
1) Bombard coastal tile improvements
2) When workers come to repair tile improvements, take workers with marines, loading captured workers onto transports
3) Support marines (if desired) with MI

After a few times of this, the AI will cease repairing improvements. Whether this is because they have "learned" not to lose more workers or because they HAVE no more workers ....

Of course, your raiding forces will more likely survive if opposing ground forces are being distracted by other ground action.

Note: If your transport(s) were full of marines and supporting troops and you put captured workers on them, you may not have room to extract your troops from the raiding site.

Nice tactic to use especially if you are just trying to harrass your opponet. I like to use tactics such as this to cripple an AI that is a leader in tech but on a distant continent

Gravity Happens · July 10, 2003, 15:03

I personally like to land a bunch of paratroopers and fight a war of attrition with the enemy. Cut off rail lines, capture workers, destroy radar, stuff like that. I make it hard for them to get rid of the paratroopers by fortifying them on mountains and hills and stuff, or maybe running away and diverting their infantry or whatever might be pursuing the paratroopers. Then i come in with marines to land on the shores and attack coastal cities and units, all the while having battleships/destroyers/AEGIS cruisers and bombers from carriers bombarding and bombing away. Finally, after this force succeeds (or is defeated, although it is usually victorious), I come in with tanks/modern armor and clean up. I tried this in a multiplayer game with my uncle and my sister, and it worked great! IT also wastes the AI.

Jaybe · July 10, 2003, 19:52

Quote:

... bomb out the rail and road net everywhere in the vicinity of the landing point; the use of marines you describe leaves you somewhat less vulnerable to the next-turn counterattack, but use of bombers will make you completely immune to it. ...

Hard to do when they have F-15s on air superiority and you have only a carrier or two with a mix of bombers and jet fighters....

Perhaps later when I have my stealth aircraft in plentiful supply.

Panag · July 11, 2003, 14:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaybe

Quote:

... bomb out the rail and road net everywhere in the vicinity of the landing point; the use of marines you describe leaves you somewhat less vulnerable to the next-turn counterattack, but use of bombers will make you completely immune to it. ...

Hard to do when they have F-15s on air superiority and you have only a carrier or two with a mix of bombers and jet fighters....

Perhaps later when I have my stealth aircraft in plentiful supply.

hi ,

refocus on land improvements then , units outside the cities , ......

them F-15's cant come forever

have a nice day

Mad Bomber · July 11, 2003, 20:35

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

refocus on land improvements then , units outside the cities , ......

them F-15's cant come forever

have a nice day

Not even if you have 100 of them?? Targeting improvements only eliminates the SAM threat as the intercept for fighters is three tiles.

Jaybee:

Increase the amount of carriers in the area and send in the jet fighters before the bombers. You will lose some fighters but it will stop the F-15s from attacking your bombers. Stealth Aircraft are nice but unless you are playing a conquest game there really isn't much time to use them.

Panag · July 11, 2003, 20:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

Not even if you have 100 of them?? Targeting improvements only eliminates the SAM threat as the intercept for fighters is three tiles.

Jaybee:

Increase the amount of carriers in the area and send in the jet fighters before the bombers. You will lose some fighters but it will stop the F-15s from attacking your bombers. Stealth Aircraft are nice but unless you are playing a conquest game there really isn't much time to use them.

hi ,

he wrote that he only has a couple carriers , ......

have a nice day

Mad Bomber · July 11, 2003, 22:03

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

he wrote that he only has a couple carriers , ......

have a nice day

build more.

Jaybe · July 11, 2003, 23:21

I have only a couple of carriers - in that theatre. Others have higher priorities elsewhere, such as eliminating the last of America's oil.

My basic problem with this air war, is that it IS an air war with somewhat horrific losses. Not catastrophic yet, but somewhat in line with the Allies' early air war against Germany when the losses were NOT sustainable. Almost as many jet fighters as bombers (roughly 30 & 30 overall), some of which are on Air Superiority, because Abe is using (and losing) bombers too, over a roughly 30-tile front. Great fun!

So, I send 1 or 2 jet fighters out on bombing missions, they do (or do not) get intercepted, and they do (or do not) win [see note below]. Even then, sending 2 to 4 bombers out in the same area may lose me a bomber. No spy in communist Washington yet to let me know where F-15s are based.

I have annexed about a 4th of Abes land (just to let you know it's not just an air war). Everyone has MechInf, though I am the only one with MA. I have just become involved in another war back at home (and THAT is what reserves are for)!

Note: Air-related rule changes: 67% (not 50) chance of air interception. Jet Fighters are (A.D/B.R.RoF) 8.7/4.6.1; F-15 is 8.8/6.8.2

Panag · July 12, 2003, 01:32

hi ,

next time play as the US of A , now you know why they are so great , its traits and its UU , .....

but communism as a gov ,

, what did you do to those poor guys , .....

can you attach a save

have a nice day

Jaybe · July 12, 2003, 11:35

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
...
but communism as a gov ,

, what did you do to those poor guys , .....

What did I do??!! They did it to themselves. That whole continent had given up representative government due to various wars of conquest.

In fact, I got my foothold on that continent because a former trading partner was going down, and I preferred to own that lux myself (at least one of them).

As for myself, being commercial Rome and the biggest for quite some time now, I never went beyond monarchy.

I'll see what I can do about the save(s)....

Jaybe · July 12, 2003, 14:44

Okay panag, you asked for it. Hope you enjoy the view...

1.3MB zipped file, containing 3 saves and scenario documentation. Two MS Word documents included: Unit Stats, 030508 mod.doc (changes in bold) deals with changes to the units, while 030509 Mtns Impass.doc covers other rule changes. (It's a large game, so just one save by itself would have been over 0.5MB).

Here are some highlites:
Mountains are impassable, inspired by an old thread ("... Editor Based Changes ...") I can no longer locate at CFC. Can't build cities on tundra, either.
Many changes inspired by Apolyton University (but NO, I couldn't stop there, now could I...)

I have never been happy with horse-based units being virtually the only offensive unit. Based on the concept that if 2 infantry-type units were to meet on a battlefield it would be a tossup, I equalized many offensive/defensive strengths. To compensate, to Fortify is a 50% defense bonus. So are rivers.

Cannons come before Muskets. Forests are impassable to wheeled (so need a road); horse & mech units are wheeled. There is ALWAYS naval warfare available, from the first galley; with early bombardments inspired by the need to have barbarian galleys be a meaningful nuisance (raiding parties represented by bombardment).

Aircraft have enhanced defense strengths to facilitate offensive air superiority missions. Based on "the first to sight the opponent has the advantage" as it applies to individual aircraft, so I could not see making an interceptor having a decided advantage.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Jay...s_PTW_game.zip

CerberusIV · July 12, 2003, 16:14

Coming back to the use of marines and a point from an earlier post of mine, I am definitely getting one tile islands now and didn't before the 1.21f patch.

I always though the earlier versions of the map generator were set to not produce one tile islands. Did they change it or was it just my imagination. It certainly makes marines essential in some circumstances.

vmxa1 · July 13, 2003, 01:16

I am not sure, but I have seen them in PTW. CivIII was too far back for me to be sure.