The ministry of Trade thread

Spiffor · June 15, 2002, 20:42

The foundation speech
by Spiffor, newly elected Trade minister

Dear citizens of Apolyton,

First, I would like to thank all of you who voted in the Trade advisor election. You have spoken, and put me in charge over my worthy opponent, the Banana. However, as a sign of comprehension towards the other voters, I will consult the Banana everyday, at breakfast time.

As the first minister of trade, I promise you to care for the greatest interests of our nation before my own. The ministry shall work on the deals our empire will eventually have, so that they are the best for our interests.

I will also care that our trade network is efficient, and the ministry will petition the adequate ministers to connect cities, luxuries and resources as soon as needed.

My last promise to you people is : I will listen to your concerns whenever you feel fit to tell them. My services are completely available for all of your questions. As a democratically elected minister, I shall remain near to the citizens ! To this, I will inform you by giving all the internal notes my services should write.

The internal organization of the ministry is as follow :
- the department for domestic trade, whose concern will be to care of our trade network
- the department for foreign trade, whose purpose will be to work out the best manageable deals with the foreigners.
Both these departments will adress you their notes, without keeping them for myself or for the government.

Dear citizens, I am looking forward to work my best for the greatness of our Civilization.
(Apolyton's anthem)

civman2000 · June 15, 2002, 20:56

i think trades not involving resources should be the foreign advisor's job...after all they're more of negotiations than trading, and they're done though the foreign advosor screen!

Spiffor · June 15, 2002, 21:07

A trade not involving resources comes mostly from the minister of foreign affairs : the minister of foreign affairs decide. But the haggling job comes to the minister of trade, who has to get the most money/advantages (terrioty map etc.) from the widely decided trade by the foreign minister.
The ministry of trade is secondary, but it is a job which has to be done, as making the best deal is much micromanagement.

Nubclear · June 15, 2002, 22:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
The foundation speech
by Spiffor, newly elected Trade minister

Dear citizens of Apolyton,

First, I would like to thank all of you who voted in the Trade advisor election. You have spoken, and put me in charge over my worthy opponent, the Banana. However, as a sign of comprehension towards the other voters, I will consult the Banana everyday, at breakfast time.

As the first minister of trade, I promise you to care for the greatest interests of our nation before my own. The ministry shall work on the deals our empire will eventually have, so that they are the best for our interests.

I will also care that our trade network is efficient, and the ministry will petition the adequate ministers to connect cities, luxuries and resources as soon as needed.

My last promise to you people is : I will listen to your concerns whenever you feel fit to tell them. My services are completely available for all of your questions. As a democratically elected minister, I shall remain near to the citizens ! To this, I will inform you by giving all the internal notes my services should write.

The internal organization of the ministry is as follow :
- the department for domestic trade, whose concern will be to care of our trade network
- the department for foreign trade, whose purpose will be to work out the best manageable deals with the foreigners.
Both these departments will adress you their notes, without keeping them for myself or for the government.

Dear citizens, I am looking forward to work my best for the greatness of our Civilization.

What will your first action as Trade Advisor be? Do you even know?

Also....Does anyone know if we even have an athem?

Timeline · June 16, 2002, 01:19

Actually Spiffor, the way the Code of Laws is at now, you only have direct control when gold, luxury, or strategic resources are involved. It stinks I know, but it's the way people had wanted it when they were writting the constitution. Maybe you outta get over there and try to make some suggestions before the thing gets voted on

.

I didn't even want to have a Trade minister as I thought it should all just be the foreign affairs minister, but, eh well. Congrats on your victory and enjoy your bananas, just be careful, the medicine men now have a theory that you may become what you eat.

Spiffor · June 16, 2002, 09:18

Tassadar :
As my minister is centred around situation-dictated micromanagement, I won't have any decisions to take before we find foreigners, or before we find resources / luxuries.
But, I will do one thing in preparation : an excel file to keep track of all active trades. In SP games, when you don't feel like micromanaging your trade, you often lose track of your trades, and let deals last 40 or more turns before remembering to renegociate them (of course, the AI won't renegociate them if they match its interests).
Now, as a specialist in matters of foreign trade, I will carefully keep track.

Timeline :
Thanks for the info, but I don't remember the competences of the trade ministry were even discussed. The onl thing I know about my functions come from Gramphos' thread about ministries and their functions (the multiple choice poll where it was decided a ministry of environment was useless).
Could you give me a link where the competences of the ministry of trade were discussed please ? It would be warmly welcome.

Timeline · June 16, 2002, 22:41

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=52689

See Gramphos and my post for details. Gramphos laid the foundation in his first post and I attempted to clearify it in the Code of Laws. I clearly define the differences between the foreign advisor and trade minister. If you dont like what we have now, we can always change it, just start a poll for amendment and if it's popular it can easily be adjusted.

Spiffor · June 16, 2002, 23:24

Timeline :
Indeed, some precise point of our glorious constitution leave some roomfor improvement.
One of the works of the current ministry of trade will be to work on a viable porject for a merger between the ministry of finance and the ministry of trade, for the sake of efficiency and coherence in monetary politics.
Currently, our newly created institutional bureau hasn't a complete project ready, but a major overhaul of the government organization in matters of economy are in the works. Of course, such a project will have to be decided with the agreement of the finance minister, and above all, the agreement of the people.

Timeline · June 16, 2002, 23:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Timeline :
Indeed, some precise point of our glorious constitution leave some roomfor improvement.
One of the works of the current ministry of trade will be to work on a viable porject for a merger between the ministry of finance and the ministry of trade, for the sake of efficiency and coherence in monetary politics.
Currently, our newly created institutional bureau hasn't a complete project ready, but a major overhaul of the government organization in matters of economy are in the works. Of course, such a project will have to be decided with the agreement of the finance minister, and above all, the agreement of the people.

Actually it would probably be far more effecient to merge the minister of trade with the foreign affairs minister, but that would leave you out of job

.

Spiffor · June 16, 2002, 23:43

I don't think so, as I imagine the minister of trade as a haggling minister, where money is the concern, or following the wishes of other ministers.
That's why I imagine the trade ministry merged with the other "money ministry", rather than the Foreign advisor, whose diplomatic logic is completely different.

As for my job : I accepted to do this because no one else wanted to do the job. Now that I have taken engagements in front of Apolyton citizens, I won't turn back until the end of my term. But losing my job afterwards really doesn't bother me.

Spiffor · June 17, 2002, 19:16

Official communication. 3950 BC.
- The minitry of trade is officially opened, and will seat in the palace of our glorious capital, Apolyton. From there, our services should work for the interests of our nation.

- The discovery of the Notylopa Jungle up north might be good news for the ministry of trade. Our experts expect the jungle to be rich in tradable goods. The ministry strongly pushes for exploration of the area.

Official communication. 3750 BC. Department of domestic trade
- The workers, placed under Eli's leadership, completed the first road connected to Apolyton. This road, located NW of the Capital, is proper for the transportation of goods, compatible with the norms of the ministry. This first road should be the first step for an integrated trade network.

Spiffor · June 25, 2002, 20:20

Department of Foreign Trade, 2900 BC
- Dyes have been spotted in the newly discovered American territory. The Americans do not use this luxury, and this has a negative impact on the population's mood.

- French are alledged to bring Wines to Paris, but their source has not been discovered yet. Our department estimates the wineyards to be North from Paris. It is currently impossible to tell if the French have several wineyards in their territory or only one.

- An attempt to trade pottery for gold has been made. Our chief negociator lowered American demands to 2 gold per turn + 6 gold lump (contrary to the 2gpt + 13 gold lump initially demanded). However, the cabinet refused this trade unanimously.

- All attempts to trade for Alphabet and Mystcism have been failures because of our partners' refusals.

Edit : minor changes for clarity

Ninot · June 25, 2002, 20:24

just a querry.. aren't I supposed to be reporting all and any tech trading? (unless it has resources involved)?

that IS the way the constitution is written

EDIT: oops.. ok.. just read the constitution, you are involved as long as gold/luxury/resource is involved. But still, tech trading IS my field.

but yeah.. i wanna merge next term.. its crazy how much consulting im supposed to do to get some deals done.

Spiffor · June 25, 2002, 20:31

Sorry, I thought the haggling job involving money was mine (ie, lowering 13lump to 6 lump), but decision making was your call with Tass.

Ninot · June 25, 2002, 20:34

Tass advises on tech trade, but trading the tech isnt his complete field, its my decision in the end.

I can't argue that you are doing your job wherever gold/luxury/resource is concerned. You are completely right there.

But its strange, that a single transaction can be reported from two to three reports.

GePap · June 25, 2002, 22:26

I have a question about trade advisor: Since we need certain infrastructure (roads over resources, roads or sea lanes connecting to foreign capitol) does the Trade advisor get any special powers to advise other ministers when the decisions they whish to take directly influence the Ministry of Trade's job? Also, will trade of jey resources, like Iron, Oil, Uranium and Rubber, be the sole decision of the Trade minister, or will the War ministr, foreign ministry and others get a veto on such important trades?

Spiffor · June 25, 2002, 22:55

The minister of Trade can officially petition the minister of public works to connect cities and trading goods to the trade network. He has, however, no direct power on workers, and the minister of public works can completely ignore those requests if he really wants.

The minister of trade, says the constitution, has all power about trade involving solely gold and goods. But I don't imagine any minister stupid enough to sell oil to future enemies, or to sell any resource without consulting the foreign / military ministers first.

However, I am currently working on a project to clarify things out. People will decide if this project is good or not.

Spiffor · July 15, 2002, 13:07

Ok, at last I translated my excel table of resources into a HTML table. Now, you can know what resources the knon Civs have in one glance ! (sorry, it's very ugly, but I suck at HTML) :

Code:

Civilizations and their resources
1450 BC
RESOURCES



    
    
        
        Horses
        Iron
        Saltpeter
        Coal
        Oil
        Rubber
        Aluminium
        Uranium
    

        
    
        Apolytonia
        X
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Rome
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Greece
        X
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Babylon
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Germany
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Russia
        X
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        China
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        America
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Japan
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        France
        X
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        India
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Persia
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Aztecs
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Zululand
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Iroquois
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        England
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    





LUXURIES


    
    
        
        Wines
        Furs
        Dyes
        Incense
        Spices
        Ivory
        Silks
        Gems
    

        
    
        Apolytonia
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Rome
        XXX
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Greece
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Babylon
        
        
        
        X
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Germany
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Russia
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        China
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        America
        
        
        XX
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Japan
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        France
        X
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        India
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Persia
        
        
        
        X
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Aztecs
        XX
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Zululand
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
        
    

    
    
        Iroquois
        
        
        
        
        X
        
        
        
    

    
    
        England

mtgillespie · July 16, 2002, 04:58

MY EYES! MY EYES!

Spiffor · July 16, 2002, 17:49

1450 BC

Possible trades involving gold :

Greeks :
World map for World map + 220 gold + 5 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 168 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Aztecs :
nil

French :
World Map for World map + 192 gold
MapMaking for World map + 130 gold
MapMaking for 195 gold

Germans :
World Map : impossible
MapMaking for World map + 174 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

Iroquois : nil

America :
World Map for World Map + 228 gold + 6 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 171 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Rome :
WorldMap : impossible
MapMaking for World Map + 207 gold
MapMaking for 218 gold

England :
World Map for World Map + 223 gold + 3 gpt
MapMaking for World Map + 173 gold
MapMaking for 210 gold

Russia :
nil

Babylon :
nil

Persia : nil

However, the "nil" civilizations will have maps available once we get mapmaking. We could trade our world map for Russia's and Iroquois'(they are expansionistic, and thus must have interetsing maps). With Persians and Babylonians, we could trade their maps for mathematics.

My trading suggestion is as follows :
- buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

Inverse Icarus · July 16, 2002, 18:18

i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game.

if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

Inverse Icarus · July 16, 2002, 18:22

and you should note after you give away your map, the value of it goes down.

Spiffor · July 16, 2002, 18:26

Then we can get MapMaking from the Greeks for 5gpt and 120 gold. This trade will give us enough lump gold to pay for some maps (hopefully)
However, without trading our map, we'll never have enough money to get the maps of everyone.

Last thing we could do is forgetting mapmaking for now, and buy the Greek map for 7 gpt + 226 gold. After all, they must have gathered tons of info for such a price.

But I still think we could trade maps anyways. In my past Civ3 experience, I came to the strong belief that the AI knows the map beforehand (how many times did I see foreign galleys going exactly towards another shore they couldn't see, in my mod where galleys have more moves ?)

Aggie · July 16, 2002, 18:27

I agree with uber, we really shouldn't give our map away yet, lets at least until we see if that island can be useful
Aggie

Robber Baron · July 16, 2002, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by UberKruX
i refuse to support any plan that reveals our map at this stage of the game.

if that is an island we see, we will be the soul colonizers of it. the second the AI sees it, they'll go there with their galleys that dont sink. we should keep it for ourselves.

Food for thought.
What is the likelihood another civ has spotted the (island)? How long would we guess we have before someone beats us to it? We are in the middle of a military buildup that (I assume) we do not want to postpone. What are the odds this land remains undetected long enough for us to exploit it?

Robber Baron · July 16, 2002, 18:36

Another thought:
If this is rich land, we should be in a good position to exert cultural pull over it, even if we find ourselves among company by the time we manage to plant a city there. Particularly if we keep our capital at the southern tip of the penninsula (unlikely, perhaps, but an option to consider if: 1) there is rich land down there; and 2) our expansion northward gets checked by military setbacks.

Aggie · July 16, 2002, 18:54

May I suggest we do the trades that don't involve the world map. Then perhaps consider our territory map. It is soooo much better talking about civ instead of disputed votes

.
Aggie

Spiffor · July 16, 2002, 19:10

Sorry, but as long as we don't trade for mapmaking, I can't work on any deal like "your world map for my territory map".

Maybe the better deal would be not to trade our world map with the Persians and French, as they're the ones most likely to settle the isle. The others are too far away and have something else to do with their settlers.

Aggie · July 16, 2002, 19:20

I think I might have been unclear, what i meant was that we do the trades for map making and then the world map buy trades. Here is how it now is;

buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
- trade world maps with Russia and with Iroquois. I doubt they already know the map of everybody, since they don't have money to buy all maps
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
- sell this extended world map to Romans and Americans if they have money, before the Greeks do.

Lets change to
buy MapMaking from the Greeks for 210 gold (we don't want to give an edge to our future French enemies)
-
- sell mathematics to the Persians and Babylonians for their maps
- buy world map from the Greeks, buy paying a price if we have to (even gpt)
-

Then we can see what deals our territory maps can get us, since we have a small territory that is already mostly known.
Aggie

Spiffor · July 16, 2002, 19:38

Aggie : your idea is interesting.
We don't have enough money to buy the map of the Greeks after buying mapmaking for money only (to the French, who make a discount)
However, we can trade Russia's map for Mapmaking, 4gpt and 23 gold
Aztecs' map for MapMaking, 5gpt and 25 gold
Babylon's map for Mapmaking, Mathematics and 16 gold
Iroquois' map for Mapmaking, 3 gpt and 30 gold
Persia's map for Mapmaking.

These deals don't take tech devaluation into account, and we'll have to throw even more money in, once we sell mapmaking once. We'll have some maps, but not all of them.
The only "free" map (in terms of money) would be the Persian one, which only requires mapmaking. However, Persia will not trade its map for mathematics alone.

(note : to design this project, I had to play ahead by buying MapMaking to the French for 195 gold. I did not accept any deals involving maps. thus, I don't have more geographical knowledge than any of you)