Invasions: stage or all at once?

[planetfall]

DDay plus 7 turns. Year 1766.

Recaptured flipped city to W. Nice growth in conquered cities. Oh, Persia just game me a new leader. Could have been someone other than Hitler, but I can still use him up.

[planetfall]

DDay +8, year 1768.

Persia no longer on AzPer. Aztecs have one
city left. But will any cities flip?

[planetfall]

DDay plus 9 turns, year 1770.

Hey, 3 Persian cities flipped. I thought they were stuck on the big island.

Now, was that planned or accident?? Is this a strange tactic or a setback?

[planetfall]

DDay plus 10, year 1772.

This is all the further this game has gone, but it is far enough for the DDay challenge.

Oh, Persia is back on big island. Yes, in this case the flips were a desired goal. No new leaders, but hard to complain with more armies than can effectively use.


PS This is the LAST image!!

[planetfall]

If you are going to play the DDay Challenge,
you might like to know bic preferences. My understanding is these are saved with the SAV file.

Major preference changes:
-- corruption is devalued
-- modern ships move farther
-- planes move further than ships
-- battlefield experience is rewarded
-- carriers load similar to WWII


Preference details
-- Corruption, 60%
-- Optimal number of cities, 50
-- transport/destroyer/battleship, 6 tiles
-- carrier, 5 tiles
-- jet fighter/bomber range, 8 tiles
-- carrier load, 20 units
-- elite, HP increased from 5 to 6

[HazieDaVampire]

press Alt + Print page, then open up MSPaint, then paste, and save the file and post it!

[HazieDaVampire]

in my next game i really gunna change some of the values, i hate pollution (the orange pollution, i do however think global warming is cool) and i'll make the carrier hold more.

anybody think the industreil age ships should be able to hold 1 unit, i know that loads of ships in the industreil age carryed some infantry onboard to defend against boardings!

[HazieDaVampire]

wow, didn't take you to long to take over most of the land! My average wars are 20 years! And if i'm on a 'continent invasion' and i'm not planning on stopping it can take me loads of turns!

[planetfall]

Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
wow, didn't take you to long to take over most of the land! My average wars are 20 years! And if i'm on a 'continent invasion' and i'm not planning on stopping it can take me loads of turns!

Love
1. them there panzers dudes. They get wounded, but keep on coming back and back again.
2. hurrying libraries to restrict AI ground counter attack.

Naturally before this point, game is boring as build up wartime production capacity.

Also lost one landing zone. But, but, this is my first attempt at a massive continent invasion. I know I could have the entire continent by 10 turns now. I think very good players could do it in fewer. This is why I posted the DDay 10 turn challenge. I would like to know how much room for improvement there is.

[JoeDaddy715]

Personally, I would have dropped all of my invading force on the large island in the centeral south sea. I'd have used naval units to prevent them from reinforcing, and I'd have then used it as a staging area for a second, larger invasion of the mainland. Obviously your strategy worked fine, but it kinda looks to me like your enemies were a bit overmatched anyway.... I always concentrate my troops on one spot first, placing ALL DEFENSIVE units on ONE tile, so that the AI can lose much of its attack power within the first part of the invasion. Secondly, I land artillery (if available) to wreak havoc on the defensive units, and finally I add attack units to do the final deeds. One major difference in the strategies I use is that iron is a required resource for ALL units after swordsman except longbowman. (how anyone thinks they can build infantry without iron, I'll never know) SO.... I use my attack units to cut a path to the iron, then have defensive units set up shop on the resource and pillage it. My infantry units will build fortresses on the resources, and I'll use these areas to stage bombardments et al. Yes, my infantry is altered to be able to build fortresses. Anybody who has been in the infantry knows good and well that infantry units are trained to build fortifications and entrenchment. This is more than just finding cover in the available terrain (fortifying) This is building trenches and foxholes and anything else that 500 highly trained and disciplined men can do collectively together....

[cracker]

Planetfall,

You are located near me in Colorado, so I hope we stay in closer contact.

For your DDay challenge: You are using a severely distorted modification of the game that really makes it so that this game example is sort of like "Running a race against opponents who have two broken legs and that have been shot in the head at close range just to disable them."

I picked up your save game in 1745 and would have probably pushed it to the side after just a turn or two if it were not for you being in Colorado.

The problem with all these modifications is that the AI players are not programmed to use the features and therefore it gives you these tools while your opponents are essentially unarmed. The worst unbalancing feature in this game is the Panzers which are your UU and only available to you. None of your opponents has anything that remotely balances all the extra horsepower given to the panzers and this makes them just like bowls of Jellow waiting to be slapped into oblivion.

The Panzer mod features include adding the 5 extra hit points of power plus raising the base hit points for the experience levels. Your modified Elite panzer has 11 hit points at an attack strength of 16 and THIS IS WAY TOO POWERFUL. This many hit points does not just make the panzers strong, it makes them lethal enough to kill three riflemen or infantrymen in almost every turn.

In fact, your panzers are so over charged that Modern Armor is a substantial downgrade of power and Including panzers in armies is a severe strategic mistake in most cases. Four free ranging Panzers with 11 hit points per turn can kill 10 to 11 enemy units per turn while the panzer armies can only kill three units per turn. I ended un using the excess empty armies to disband and rush things in the captured cities. I wasted several early turns figuring this factor out because frankly I have never seen anyone implement modification rules that created this type of a kill the opponent unfairly scenario.

The artillery modified to have two movement points is also unbalancing because the AI is not programmed to use artillery well even in the default game. With your mod factors the artillery can move into enemy territory and fire all in the same turn and the AI doesn't know how to do this.

The carriers with a capacity of 20 bombers are overpowering.

There is also someting wierd going on in this game because the AIs have horses but have never built any offensive strike units such as Knights of Cavalry. This will truly be fatal for them and is not typical.

It took me several turns just to figure out how severely you had set things up to kill the AI players.

Also, never, never, never, never use the Automated worker functions to play the game. These automated functions waste worker movement turns at about 30% waste or more. It took me about 3 turns to figure out that you had most of your workers locked into this time wasting part of the strategy game. You also needed airports in many, many more cities to make this invasion strategy really click and it took 3 or 4 turns for me to figure that out as well.

All this set to the side, The Persians are your real enemy in this game but you do not seem to have an embassy or spy to better visualize how your enemy is arrayed. You have most of your invasion resources targeted at Montezuma.

The other problem factor in the game is the offshore islands. These provide culture refuges that prevent you from adopting Bill Sherman's "Cut loose and slash them into oblivion strategy."

I took your invasion forces in 1745 and whipped them all ashore at the best possible places I could find withing the next movement range of the transports. This put the upper invasions on two opposite sides of the continent working to link up across the mid band of the continent from Malinalco to the hils between Tamuin and Tiacopan.

You southern invasion force, I consolidated and sent ashore on the hill west of Arbela.

I rushed three extra transports to finish transporting the panzer armies across the oceans plus immediately returned the transports from the south back to your #17 city to reload them and hit the Persian big island with a 3 transport task force of panzers and mechs.

I burned the transports on the northern zones to rush the airport in the same turn as the initial assault 1 turn after landing. Saved one transport from Malinalco to deal with Behistun offshore problem.

In all the cities at home I converted production away from bombers and over to ground units of the best appropriate type to use the available shields and prodcue the maximum number of units per turn. Used many of those old obsolete units on the home front to balance and short rush units in almost every city so I could get 1 panzer, 1 mech, 1 cavalry, or 1 longbowman, or one swordsman per city in almost every turn.

Never rush the full or inital shield balance of any unit or any improvement, the cost is doubled by the program.

I did not use mobilization because I wanted to preserve the ability to build culture improvements in the forntier cities as needed.

Killed Persia completely by about 1760, and cleared Monty from the contininet 1 turn later because all the units could be freed up from holding the Persian cities.

I am out of town this week but will post some pics for you later.

I would strongly reccomend playing back closer to the base Civ3 game because you will have some very bad habits to break if you expect to survive on the more fun and more challenging upper difficulty levels without using the mod factor crutches.

Good luck,

[planetfall]

Originally posted by cracker
Planetfall,

You are located near me in Colorado, so I hope we stay in closer contact.

Thank you, thank you for taking the time of reviewing this game and providing some feedback. I really, really appreciate it.

For your DDay challenge: You are using a severely distorted modification of the game that really makes it so that this game example is sort of like "Running a race against opponents who have two broken legs and that have been shot in the head at close range just to disable them."

I picked up your save game in 1745 and would have probably pushed it to the side after just a turn or two if it were not for you being in Colorado.

The problem with all these modifications is that the AI players are not programmed to use the features and therefore it gives you these tools while your opponents are essentially unarmed. The worst unbalancing feature in this game is the Panzers which are your UU and only available to you. None of your opponents has anything that remotely balances all the extra horsepower given to the panzers and this makes them just like bowls of Jellow waiting to be slapped into oblivion.

The Panzer mod features include adding the 5 extra hit points of power plus raising the base hit points for the experience levels. Your modified Elite panzer has 11 hit points at an attack strength of 16 and THIS IS WAY TOO POWERFUL. This many hit points does not just make the panzers strong, it makes them lethal enough to kill three riflemen or infantrymen in almost every turn.

In fact, your panzers are so over charged that Modern Armor is a substantial downgrade of power and Including panzers in armies is a severe strategic mistake in most cases. Four free ranging Panzers with 11 hit points per turn can kill 10 to 11 enemy units per turn while the panzer armies can only kill three units per turn. I ended un using the excess empty armies to disband and rush things in the captured cities. I wasted several early turns figuring this factor out because frankly I have never seen anyone implement modification rules that created this type of a kill the opponent unfairly scenario.

Opps, I did not remember upping panzer settings. I must have run a test of panzer vs MA and forgot to reset back. Definitely will fix before next game. Great catch.

The artillery modified to have two movement points is also unbalancing because the AI is not programmed to use artillery well even in the default game. With your mod factors the artillery can move into enemy territory and fire all in the same turn and the AI doesn't know how to do this.

Good point. I have not used that strategy. I only use artillery for defense. I guess this is just a programming problem to get use to. At one point I tried increasing range by 1 for each land bombardment advance. catapault=1, canon=2, artillery=3, radar art=4. But that horribily messed up the game, so I simplified to range 1 for older unit and range 2 for modern units. Since there is this programming problem, it would not effect my play at all to revert back to range 1.

The carriers with a capacity of 20 bombers are overpowering.

I was trying to include all three dimensions: land, sea, and air. The problem is the game really really slows down if for a 20 bomber force you have to move 5 carriers instead of one. I was thinking back to pearl and 20 bombers seemed like a small force for a carrier. You could be right about this schewing the game play.

There is also someting wierd going on in this game because the AIs have horses but have never built any offensive strike units such as Knights of Cavalry. This will truly be fatal for them and is not typical.

I don't think they are researching the necessary techs. I may have reduced AI tech trading too much. IN other games I have seen AI knights and cavs.

Also, never, never, never, never use the Automated worker functions to play the game. These automated functions waste worker movement turns at about 30% waste or more. It took me about 3 turns to figure out that you had most of your workers locked into this time wasting part of the strategy game.

Actually I use Shift-A. So it is faster to manually control workers. I thought Shift-A, speeded up game play. But if it slows it down, it definitely will not be a loss to keep on manual. I will try next game on manual and see what that does to total game play time.

You also needed airports in many, many more cities to make this invasion strategy really click and it took 3 or 4 turns for me to figure that out as well.

I thought I had the minimum number of feeder airports. Granted sometimes I had to move armor across the continent to find a free airport. But I could always airlift as much armor as I could produce at first. I slowly added airports.

All this set to the side, The Persians are your real enemy in this game but you do not seem to have an embassy or spy to better visualize how your enemy is arrayed. You have most of your invasion resources targeted at Montezuma.

I really didn't want to start the war this early. It was on the attempt to plant a Spy in Persia that they declared war. At that point I figured what the heck and kept it going.

Montezuma was a result of getting lost. I wanted one landing zone in W Persia and W Aztec, but ended with 2 going to W Aztec. Do not like the idea of restarting when a mistake is made, so I continued with delayed W Persia landing.

The other problem factor in the game is the offshore islands. These provide culture refuges that prevent you from adopting Bill Sherman's "Cut loose and slash them into oblivion strategy."

This was a test game. Normally I would go for the extremes of the empire and work inward. I wanted to know what happens if hit the center and mop up the outer borders later.

I took your invasion forces in 1745 and whipped them all ashore at the best possible places I could find withing the next movement range of the transports. This put the upper invasions on two opposite sides of the continent working to link up across the mid band of the continent from Malinalco to the hils between Tamuin and Tiacopan.

You southern invasion force, I consolidated and sent ashore on the hill west of Arbela.

I rushed three extra transports to finish transporting the panzer armies across the oceans plus immediately returned the transports from the south back to your #17 city to reload them and hit the Persian big island with a 3 transport task force of panzers and mechs.

I burned the transports on the northern zones to rush the airport in the same turn as the initial assault 1 turn after landing. Saved one transport from Malinalco to deal with Behistun offshore problem.

In all the cities at home I converted production away from bombers and over to ground units of the best appropriate type to use the available shields and prodcue the maximum number of units per turn. Used many of those old obsolete units on the home front to balance and short rush units in almost every city so I could get 1 panzer, 1 mech, 1 cavalry, or 1 longbowman, or one swordsman per city in almost every turn.

Never rush the full or inital shield balance of any unit or any improvement, the cost is doubled by the program.

Good reminder, rarely do this. I like to wait until next turn to rush

I did not use mobilization because I wanted to preserve the ability to build culture improvements in the forntier cities as needed.

I have never tried war mobilitization as I usually don't want to give up culture improvements

Killed Persia completely by about 1760, and cleared Monty from the contininet 1 turn later because all the units could be freed up from holding the Persian cities.

I am out of town this week but will post some pics for you later.

Anxious to see your pics, as assumed you did a better job on the campaign than I did.

I would strongly reccomend playing back closer to the base Civ3 game because you will have some very bad habits to break if you expect to survive on the more fun and more challenging upper difficulty levels without using the mod factor crutches.

Good luck,

To summarize your suggestions:
1. elite HP +1 is not used fairly by AI, reset to std
2. correct mod of panzers having to much force. Reduce by 5.
3. AI does not use increased range for artillery, reset art. and r.art back to range 1.
4. AI doesn't expect carriers to have full load, so reset back to load 5 so it has a fair chance.
5. Restore some AI tech trading ability.

Strategy lessons:
1. Panzer army is bad, bad, bad.
2. Shift-A slows down game way too much.
3. Join some excess workers into cities as you don't need the expense.
4. Don't play for score, just plan an eliminated the other civ.
5. Game is more fun if progress to higher levels and set preferences closer to std options AI was programmed to use.

Did I miss anything?

Again, don't forget the images. I want to learn tactics too.

Great learning opportunity. Still think it would be fun to have a wide variety of people creating 10 play weekend scenarios for us all to play and learn.

[Panag]

hi ,

good work Planetfall , ....

, keep posting .

have a nice day

[HazieDaVampire]

i find once i've got my transportation of tanks coming over the water sorted out, the game gets boring. If the AI actualy knew to attack my transporters some how it would easily stop me invading!

[Panag]

Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
i find once i've got my transportation of tanks coming over the water sorted out, the game gets boring. If the AI actualy knew to attack my transporters some how it would easily stop me invading!

hi ,

the AI has nothing to throw at you , ..... poor AI , ...

and because of you , the AI has no techs neither , ....

bad-boy , ......

its your own fault , ...

have a nice day

[Jaybe]

Planetfall,
If you fail to plant a spy, feel free to try again (funds permitting). I THINK you can try it even if you are at war. Better odds if you are communist.

Cracker's objecting to forming Panzer armies was with your SuperPanzers. Creating a few with normal Panzers may be okay for those special targets such as metropolis with entrenched Mech Infantry, or even Infantry (defends at about 25-30). I like to have the army shells available, then load them up near the front as needed for greatest flexibility (you don't have to be in a city to load). Try them in small numbers to see what works.

[cracker]

The issue with the automated workers is not game lag time, it is productivity and efficient management.

The automated workers follow a canned strategy of irrigation, mining, and roading without regards for what you may be doing in the big picture. You will often get the standard X shaped layout of mines with irrigation interspersed even if the city is grassland and should be almost 100% mined.

Some of this involves optimizing a city for what it should be doing. A city that builds Mech Infantry needs to produce a net yield of 110 shields in one turn to build a MI in one turn. 55 shields for 2 turns, 34 shields for 3 turns, 30 shields for a perfect short rush to a cavalry full production bin before swithcing to Mech and then finish in just 1 or 2 turns. If you have a city that is producing 54 shields because your automated workers are too stupid to carve out just one more mine, then you end up taking three turns to produce each Mech Infantry and they actually cost you 162 shields per unit. (Dumb AI; Bad)

Workers are a resource that should either be doing something or should be used to grow the population of your cities and drive up your score. I did not keep count, but you had close to 50 aurtomated workers just sitting in cities doing jack-**** because the automate function had them all locked up. It took me two full turns just to find them all and release them from their mindless existence.

You also modded the worker task completion rates and seemed to have forgotten about that.

The screwed up tech trading rate may have accounted for some of the extra handicaps you gave to the AI. Remember that on Warlord level (unmodded, just in case someone led you to crap that up) the AI players are already mentally retarded in every way by having their costs for everything inflated by the 12 multiplier that compares to your 10 multiplier. For example, when you need 20 food bundles to grow a person, the Warlord AI's need 24. To make a settler, you need 30 shields, but the AI players need 36. To build the pyramids you need 400 shields while the AI players need 480 shields.

Tech research is also generally slowed in the game at Warlord because the cost multiplier is also mindlessly applied to the cost of all AI techs as well. A tech that costs you 1000 gold to research will cost the AI's 1200 gold.

You also modded the tech research turns down to 3 instead of 4.

I would strongly recommend that you reset you BIC file back to the original CIV3 values and then make just a few minor tweaks and adjustments. You have some severe and terminally unbalancing things in your mod set, that really will make it impossible to develop game playing skills to go beyond Warlord or Regent.

When you add mod factors, try to test them in a short sample game to see if the AI players can pick up on the mod changes. I think the hit point bonuses and altered experience hitpoint values are something that the AI does not seem to be able to differentiate any more than it can do some sort of cost benefit analysis of (do I build this one unit, or should I build these other two units in the same amount of time for the same cost but get more bang for my buck.

I like mods and scenarios, but some whiners will lead you to mod all these factors that basically just turn your mentally challenging game of CIV3 into some mindless version of whack-a-mole. Once in a while you may want to build 200 panzers with 11 hitpoints each, just so you can experience the thrill of maiming all your helpless neighbors in just one turn, but in general every change needs to have some sort of compensating balance to it.

If you up one factor by a great amount, or make a bunch of changes to factors taht you do not fully understand the impact of, you might as well just start pulling the legs off crickets as a thrill source.

[cracker]

Oh, and Planetfall, the 10 turn game challenge for the weekend is a good idea,

but the severity of these mods in your example game makes anything that may have been learned in the game to be of very little real practical value to get you ready to move up in difficulty or to tacklt things like Game of The Month play.

On Warlord, with Panzers and Mech Infantry (upgraded for infantry) you should have been able to complete this invasion almost 30 turns or 200 years earlier in the game. You have so much excess military hardware and uncorrupted production power, that I was able to take out 17 Persian cities (+3 Aztec Cities and a minor SOD) all in one turn.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by cracker
The issue with the automated workers is not game lag time, it is productivity and efficient management.

The automated workers follow a canned strategy of irrigation, mining, and roading without regards for what you may be doing in the big picture. You will often get the standard X shaped layout of mines with irrigation interspersed even if the city is grassland and should be almost 100% mined.

Some of this involves optimizing a city for what it should be doing. A city that builds Mech Infantry needs to produce a net yield of 110 shields in one turn to build a MI in one turn. 55 shields for 2 turns, 34 shields for 3 turns, 30 shields for a perfect short rush to a cavalry full production bin before swithcing to Mech and then finish in just 1 or 2 turns. If you have a city that is producing 54 shields because your automated workers are too stupid to carve out just one more mine, then you end up taking three turns to produce each Mech Infantry and they actually cost you 162 shields per unit. (Dumb AI; Bad)

Wow, great explanation. But don't understand why go from cavs to mechs. I thought cav was a dead end with no upgrade.

You also modded the worker task completion rates and seemed to have forgotten about that.

1. How did you find all these differences? Sometimes I make differences and forget to change back from defaults?

2. Did mod worker tasks with republic to match worker tasks with democracy.

The screwed up tech trading rate may have accounted for some of the extra handicaps you gave to the AI. Remember that on Warlord level (unmodded, just in case someone led you to crap that up) the AI players are already mentally retarded in every way by having their costs for everything inflated by the 12 multiplier that compares to your 10 multiplier. For example, when you need 20 food bundles to grow a person, the Warlord AI's need 24. To make a settler, you need 30 shields, but the AI players need 36. To build the pyramids you need 400 shields while the AI players need 480 shields.

Tech research is also generally slowed in the game at Warlord because the cost multiplier is also mindlessly applied to the cost of all AI techs as well. A tech that costs you 1000 gold to research will cost the AI's 1200 gold.

Couldn't find the exact numbers for regent, so just started new game with cost multiplier between warlord and monarch. Is there a easy way to reset to default?

You also modded the tech research turns down to 3 instead of 4.

This was just an attempt to speed up game play via research instead of tech trading.

I would strongly recommend that you reset you BIC file back to the original CIV3 values and then make just a few minor tweaks and adjustments. You have some severe and terminally unbalancing things in your mod set, that really will make it impossible to develop game playing skills to go beyond Warlord or Regent.

Corrected ones identified previously

When you add mod factors, try to test them in a short sample game to see if the AI players can pick up on the mod changes. I think the hit point bonuses and altered experience hitpoint values are something that the AI does not seem to be able to differentiate any more than it can do some sort of cost benefit analysis of (do I build this one unit, or should I build these other two units in the same amount of time for the same cost but get more bang for my buck.

I like mods and scenarios, but some whiners will lead you to mod all these factors that basically just turn your mentally challenging game of CIV3 into some mindless version of whack-a-mole. Once in a while you may want to build 200 panzers with 11 hitpoints each, just so you can experience the thrill of maiming all your helpless neighbors in just one turn, but in general every change needs to have some sort of compensating balance to it.

If you up one factor by a great amount, or make a bunch of changes to factors taht you do not fully understand the impact of, you might as well just start pulling the legs off crickets as a thrill source.

Thanks for the suggestions. One disadvantage of reading the forum is posterX says "you should set preferences to XYZ for better game play". I like to see if preferences changes that make sense. I am not a member of the group that says firaxis has best set of preferences. Of my preference changes only ones I am fixed on are:
1. range of modern aircraft
2. worker rates in republic should match democracy
3. some improvement in modern navy vessels move range {but current may be too much}

Other preferences are open to review.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by cracker
Oh, and Planetfall, the 10 turn game challenge for the weekend is a good idea,

but the severity of these mods in your example game makes anything that may have been learned in the game to be of very little real practical value to get you ready to move up in difficulty or to tacklt things like Game of The Month play.

Goals were simple:

1. offer a 10 turn game scenario with fixed objective and opportunity to evaluate game advantages/disadvantages
2. not to exclude non default preferences
3. encourage others to provide their own, and hopefully better, 10 turn challenges in the future.

Assumption is our game play abilities will grow fastest if

1. play the game,
2. read the forums,
3. play mini games and compare results vs others.

The problem with the GOTM is skill level needs to be higher than that of most players.
Granted most posters could handle GOTM, but many of us enjoy the game but don't use the most effective tactics and strategies and need to learn how to play better.

[cracker]

Planetfall,

Here's how an effective short rush works.

First, remember you have to "break the ice" with at least one sheild from somewhere in order for the Shield rushing equation to shift from an 8 multiplier down to a 4 multiplier. This means you should almost never rush the total balance.

A mech Infantry costs 110 sheilds to build. Rushed for the whole amount that would be 880 gold. If you get two shields from disbanding an old warrior in the city then the remaining 108 shield cost balance would cost 432 gold (4 x multiplier).

If your city is produceing a fairly good amount of sheilds, lets say 30 for an example, the hurry part of the program just ignores all the shields and wastes them. It basically forces you to buy the full remaining balance of the cost of the unit regardless what you might be expecting to produce in the turn.

In the case of the mech infantry, what you really want to do is pay cash to rush the production bin up to a level where the actual production for the next turn will take over and finish out the unit.

In the case of rush building a mech infantry in a city that is already producing 30 shields per turn you have several options.

Option 1:
Set the city to produce a cavalry unit.
Disband an old obsolete unit as an icebreaker (example an old warrior gives 2 shields)
Then cash rush the balance of the cavalry unit by purchasing 78 shield at 4x for 312 gold.
Then switch the queue to apply the 80 shield balance from the cavalry that has not been completed yet and use it to apply to the mech infantry leaving 30 shields still to go and TADA, the city will use its 30 shields to complete the MI at the beginning of the next turn.

Option 2:
Set the city to produce a cavalry unit.
Wait one turn to produce 30 shields as an icebreaker
Then cash rush the balance of the cavalry unit by purchasing 50 shield at 4x for 200 gold.
Then switch the queue to apply the 80 shield balance from the cavalry that has not been completed yet and use it to apply to the mech infantry leaving 30 shields still to go and TADA, the city will use its 30 shields to complete the MI at the beginning of the 2nd turn.

There are many combinations were this will work well.

In the 10 turn challenge game with the hormonal panzers, there were catapults, cannons, warriors, spearmen, archers, and swordsmen laying about all over the place, so there were lots of short rush opportunities.

Don't think these old units were worthless, because in conquest scenarios with railroads in the game, a 5000 year old warrior has the same military police value as a 1 year old mech infantry unit.

But in many cases the greatest use for old units is as icebreakers to rush something of value instead of upgrading them to more advance units.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by cracker
Planetfall,

Here's how an effective short rush works.

First, remember you have to "break the ice" with at least one sheild from somewhere in order for the Shield rushing equation to shift from an 8 multiplier down to a 4 multiplier. This means you should almost never rush the total balance.

Great example but what triggers a 4x multiplier vs an 8x multiplier?

Option 1:
Set the city to produce a cavalry unit.
Disband an old obsolete unit as an icebreaker (example an old warrior gives 2 shields)
Then cash rush the balance of the cavalry unit by purchasing 78 shield at 4x for 312 gold.
Then switch the queue to apply the 80 shield balance from the cavalry that has not been completed yet and use it to apply to the mech infantry leaving 30 shields still to go and TADA, the city will use its 30 shields to complete the MI at the beginning of the next turn.

Am I doing something wrong? I used to be able to do this but with 1.21 after I hurry production I cant change production queue order. Huh, is the hurry change restriction based on improvements and not on units?

Don't think these old units were worthless, because in conquest scenarios with railroads in the game, a 5000 year old warrior has the same military police value as a 1 year old mech infantry unit.

My habit is to use warriors/swordsmen/horse/cav as visual reminder that these units are for military police or hurry action and not regular military units. Usually swords/horse/cav get built when 1 turn's city production generates that unit. Thus will create horse/cav instead of sword when both take 1 turn to produce. This allows the option of moving and sacrificing unit for pressing need.

[Panag]

hi ,

Planetfall , there are some minor problem with the order line , ...sometimes it does not go , many answer's , but no real ones , only more Q's , .....

in some games you dont have any problem at all , in other's you do , this time you have it with this civ , next day not , ....

, disband older units , to speed up the production of units , or for buildings like a factory , so that you can make the new ones faster , ...

, let one or two places make nothing else then units , only to disband them in places where production aint that fast , to build a courthouse or / and a policestation , .....

have a nice day

[Thrawn05]

I prefer an all in one D-Day.

Please note, I prefer to go on the offensive during the industral, modern ages.

It takes me about 10 - 20 turns to get my forces into position. I usualy aim for a gulf that penetrates the enemy territory. I then send my transports, Carriers, Nuke Subs with Nukes, and a few Battleships and destroyers to add support.

I land my troops with a combind arms attack. I soften things up with air attacks and battleships. I land my Infantry and Mech Infantry and tanks and modern armor.

I also try to land a few units on the opposite side, to give the AI a second front to deal with. With that second front, take a costal city and just hold it, as a safe zone and a second base of operations.