Playing as the Germans

SpencerH · June 19, 2002, 11:50

I'm in the middle of civfanatics GOTM 8 which is monarch as the Germans. This is the first time I've played as them and I would say that I'm not dominating the game as well as normally do. I'm a builder so maybe the Germans are not my 'cup of tea', or is it just bad luck.

Arrian · June 19, 2002, 11:56

I'm playing a mini tourney (see Strategy forum), which is Germans on Emperor. And suffice it to say that things are not proceeding well. Without religious or industrious, building is tough. Ancient war on Emperor was difficult due to the speed of tech advancement. I'm supposedly in 3rd place (out of 7), but I'm hurtin'

I think Sir Ralph has the best strategy for the Germans: he sets up about 4 cities and starts pumping out archers. He then "prunes" nearby civs, basically by taking out their capitols. It certainly worked for him in our mini tourney.

-Arrian

Inverse Icarus · June 19, 2002, 12:07

the germans are great for an early war gambit. scientific / militiristic isn't that well adjusted for an early game unless you all out assault people. barracks are a godsend

Harovan · June 19, 2002, 12:38

SpencerH: I'm also playing the GOTM8, although I may not submit it, since I play in other tournaments and this game has low priority for me. I played an early archer gambit against all 3 AI civs, wandering around and weakening them. I almost completely control my home continent. The English have 4 cities left, the French 6 and the Russians 11. I easily could wipe out each of them, but I have enough 1-shield cities.

SpencerH · June 19, 2002, 12:39

I dont know what is different about this game. The AI is trading techs like its deity v1.07 were at mid to late industrial by 1550. I havent got a single wonder, not even Hoover Dam (that I 'always' get). I should've gone on the offensive but I was trying to win without a war but the French just sneak attacked me.

Is this common for the Germans ie you have to play as a warmonger or is it this game?

Austin · June 19, 2002, 13:36

German strategy:

As a militaristic and scientific Civ, you start the game with the ability to build archers, half price barracks, and spearmen.

This all but screams "EARLY ARCHER RUSH". Build three or four cities. Build at least two of them in areas with a lot of forest, build barracks, and churn out strike forces consisting of 5 or 6 archers and two spearmen.

Send a strike force to each neighbouring civ, beat the living crap out of them, take their capitol, and raze/take at least one other city. Sue for peace, and take all the civs tech and whatever else you have.

Note: Beat on them one at a time. Build a strike force, attack, rebuild strike force, attack next one etc.

Use your leaders to grab wonders.

Once you have iron working, build a couple more cities until the total of your original 4 + captured cities from archer rush + new cities is around 8 to 10.

Build barracks in appropriate cities, and churn out a huge mess of veteran swordsmen.

Revisit the civs that you beat on with the archer rush, beat on them again, take their techs.

Once you get into the time period where a lot of the UU units like samurai are running about, you don't really have any special advantages, so now is the time to turtle and concentrate on internal development and limited warmaking, expanding where possible.

Beeline for motorized transport.

Once your panzers come on line, mobilize. Build a big stack of panzers, then pick a victim and beat the living crap out of it. Cackle maniacally about lebensraum and jewish freemasonry and keep attacking till you've killed them all, or they kill you.

The Germans are my favorite civ to play.

Austin

Jon Shafer · June 19, 2002, 13:49

And so, the lesson for the day is:
If you play the Germans, hit first, hit quick, and hit hard.

A builder will be unpleasantly surprised the first time he plays the Germans. This is especially true on higher difficulties, when building just isn't possible.

Theseus · June 19, 2002, 13:54

Note to self:

Hit hard. Hit Hard. HIT HARD!!!!

In the mini-tourney, I don't think I went at it enough... didn;t take capitols in the first attacks, for instance.

I think Germany needs to be played at extremes... either totally peaceful, and leverage science, or totally psycho.

SpencerH · June 19, 2002, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
And so, the lesson for the day is:
If you play the Germans, hit first, hit quick, and hit hard.

A builder will be unpleasantly surprised the first time he plays the Germans. This is especially true on higher difficulties, when building just isn't possible.

That's it in a nutshell. I usually play as the egyptians or japanese (although I've played as most others). I dont normally play as expansionist or germans though and this game has come as a bit of a shock. I may still win, but it'll be tougher than normal.

SpencerH · June 19, 2002, 14:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Note to self:

Hit hard. Hit Hard. HIT HARD!!!!

In the mini-tourney, I don't think I went at it enough... didn;t take capitols in the first attacks, for instance.

I think Germany needs to be played at extremes... either totally peaceful, and leverage science, or totally psycho.

What mini-tourney. I saw the thread but not the game.

Arrian · June 19, 2002, 14:17

Spencer,

The 4000bc save is in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...2&pagenumber=2

Theseus... I foolishly tried to use my chariot upgrade gambit and it just doesn't work at that level - at least not as Germany. You've gotta hit earlier, which means archers. I actually don't relish the thought of trying to play it out... I'm losing rather badly.

-Arrian

SpencerH · June 19, 2002, 14:27

Thanks Arrian. It'll give me another shot with the germans where others have played the same game.

Theseus · June 19, 2002, 14:31

Arrian:

I'm betting the ranch on Cavs. Unfortunately, against Infantry...

More on that in the the other thread, probably tonight.

So, I guess we're out of the comfort zone, huh?

Harovan · June 19, 2002, 16:50

Austin: Excellent summary

, and very close to my approach. I seldom play "my" Germans, though.

Silvern Tiger · June 19, 2002, 18:17

If your next neighbour is Germany, just don't let them build panzers

SpencerH · June 20, 2002, 06:59

Since Germany is one of the aggresive AI civs I almost always have to cut it down to size early on if its near me then the others tend to finish it off (like hyenas).

fittstim · June 20, 2002, 08:28

I actually only play Germany. This is because if you survive the early years, you just about automatically win once you can start pumping out your 3-attack per turn panzers. Nothing will or can stand in your way.

The trick is, of course, to stick around until this is possible.

Focus on science and exploration in the early years and make a tech tree beeline to motorized transport.

Avoid war during the early years unless it is thrust upon you. If you must go to war, try and make some military alliances with the civs that border the civ that you are at war with which will take some of the heat off of you.

Austin · June 20, 2002, 10:53

In my current game I've just reached the point where the panzers have come on line. I'm both mobilized and in a golden age, so I'm building an average of about 12~15 panzers per turn.

For most of the game I was behind the technology curve after the massive sword rush that exterminated the Russians and Aztecs, which meant spending most of the middle ages sucking up to England and France, and most of the industrial age fighting them off with hordes of riflemen and artillery (Russian style, how ironic).

Now it's payback time. I overran about half of France in the first glorious surge, and England has survived only because they are in rougher country and the AI has amazingly enough been smart enough to pillage his OWN roads and railroads to slow down the panzers.

Die clashing pink and orange bastards! Die beneath the treads of my mighty panzerkampfwagens! More living space for the Volk! Raze them! Raze them all!

Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Austin

(come on, you can't do a panzer rush without the panzer rant, it just wouldn't be right)

Austin · June 20, 2002, 10:54

The fact that Germany often has to play appeasment in the middle game makes the Panzer Rush all the sweeter.

Persia, you're next.

Die! Die! All of you die!

Austin

SpencerH · June 24, 2002, 09:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Austin
In my current game I've just reached the point where the panzers have come on line. I'm both mobilized and in a golden age, so I'm building an average of about 12~15 panzers per turn.

For most of the game I was behind the technology curve after the massive sword rush that exterminated the Russians and Aztecs, which meant spending most of the middle ages sucking up to England and France, and most of the industrial age fighting them off with hordes of riflemen and artillery (Russian style, how ironic).

Now it's payback time. I overran about half of France in the first glorious surge, and England has survived only because they are in rougher country and the AI has amazingly enough been smart enough to pillage his OWN roads and railroads to slow down the panzers.

Interesting, this is pretty much how my game has gone except that I whipped the French with my cav when they sneak attacked. I then waited for panzers and attacked them. After taking 10 useless cities (to me) from the pinkys, I eventually halted my onslaught and have been taking their surrounded small cities by culture instead. Its around 1950 and I should win by spaceship in 10 turns or so but not with a great score!

What I dont understand is why the german science was so slow, or maybe it was that the AI was trading very fast. It took me to the modern era to catch up.

Marquis de Sodaq · June 24, 2002, 13:15

For the perfectionist in you, libraries are cheap as Germany. They produce more culture than temples, and speed your research. I find this to be an excellent combo with the cheap barracks. You jump ahead in culture (as soon as you reach literacy) after having a strong military built up before then. The tech lead expands after that.

Carver · June 24, 2002, 13:48

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH

Interesting, this is pretty much how my game has gone except that I whipped the French with my cav when they sneak attacked. I then waited for panzers and attacked them. After taking 10 useless cities (to me) from the pinkys, I eventually halted my onslaught and have been taking their surrounded small cities by culture instead. Its around 1950 and I should win by spaceship in 10 turns or so but not with a great score!

What I dont understand is why the german science was so slow, or maybe it was that the AI was trading very fast. It took me to the modern era to catch up.

SpencerH and Austin

Dudes, that's exactly how my last game as the Germans went. I fell way behind in tech in the middle ages. My early warmongering (exterminated France and trimmed Aztecs and India) cost me reseach and building. The AI entered the industrial era about 20 turns before me.

I had to trade like a mofo to almost catch up. I was able to buy most of the late me/early industrial techs for about 250 gold and world map. I went to 0% science and was able to buy a tech every 2 turns. But as soon as I got to within 3/4 tech of the leaders they wouldn't trade (although they were trading amoungst themselves). Maybe they didn't want to trade because I was already #1 in score due to landmass. So I went to about 70% research and caught up by the begining of modern era. (first with computers)

The panzer was a big help, not for warmongering but for a late golden age. When the world was about to crush Aztecs (down to 3 cities) I attacked with the panzers to trigger the GA. With the Aztecs being destroyed by the AI a couple turns later I wasn't troubled with war weariness.

My research roared ahead, I got my 2nd wonder, SETI, and won with SS.

Austin · June 25, 2002, 10:07

The Germans always seem to fall behind during the midgame, which is why it's so important to leverage your early starting bonus of being scientific and militaristic.

If you try to play them with a builder or conservative or even settler pooping opening you'll eventually get plowed under during the midgame, as that is when a lot of other civs get their UU's and golden ages and other boosters.

So you MUST do an early veteran archer rush with the Germans to stake out a position dominating enough to survive the midgame when the Germans seem to run out of steam.

The point is not so much to gain turf and cities for the Germans, as it is to cripple your neighbours so they can't kill you during the midgame.

Then when the Panzers come, kill them. KILL THEM ALL! DIE! DIE! DIE!

Austin

Jon Shafer · June 25, 2002, 10:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Austin
Then when the Panzers come, kill them. KILL THEM ALL! DIE! DIE! DIE!

I see you've got both German tactics and philosophy down.

But yes, they're all correct. I'll give you all another summary:

The point in the Germans is to live through the time to get Panzers, then wreak havoc on everyone. The best way to do this is by an early Archer war for Lebensraum and your own survival.

Austin · June 25, 2002, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip

I see you've got both German tactics and philosophy down.

You can't do the Panzer Rush without the Panzer Rant.

I hope we have more open diplomatic options in multiplayer so I can send other players "NOW YOU DIE" notes when I get motorized transport.

HA! NOT EVEN YOUR IMMORTALS WILL SAVE YOU NOW! AND AS FOR YOU PINK GUYS WITH THE CAPE AND PLUMBER'S HELPER, YOU DIE TOO!

Austin

dunk · June 25, 2002, 14:57

Not to be a stickler...

But shouldn't this go in the "Strategy" forum?

Great info.

SpencerH · June 25, 2002, 15:01

This thread is not about strategy per se. Its about my general reaction to playing the germans (for the first time) and responses from those who play this civ more regularly.

Austin · June 25, 2002, 16:37

One things for sure, in MP I'll bet the trend will be for a massive anti-German alliance to form near the end of the industrial age.

Austin

SpencerH · June 25, 2002, 20:12

I think thats assuming that the Germans are still around. I normally wipe them out much earlier than that (I've only seen panzers in the game I just finished).

Austin · June 26, 2002, 09:25

I usually do the same when I'm not them.

I have a feeling that certain civs are going to have gigantic bulls eyes painted on them for Mutliplayer.

Everybody is going to dogpile on the Aztechs right away to forstall the Jag rush. The Germans will get piledrived sometime during the middle ages so as to avoid the Panzer Rush.

Austin