When you arrive at the Middle Ages, what is the date?

sboog · June 20, 2002, 16:44

Those of you who play really well, please tell me when you first arrive at the Middle Ages what is the date.

The last game I played I arrived there at 1280 AD. Is that good or terrible?

sboog

zulu9812 · June 20, 2002, 16:50

I usuallly get to the Middle Ages around 60 AD on Regent

Ignorance · June 20, 2002, 16:52

Terrible.
You'll be entering modern era at that time on huge map,emperor and maximum civilizations, if there is early contact between majority of civilizations. Thanks to insane tech trading.

W4r_Machine · June 20, 2002, 16:54

The one I remember, which is my current game...arround 200-300 AD on regent and I think I was the last civ to get there.

Arrian · June 20, 2002, 17:06

Sounds like you're playing chieftain.

The game speeds up on the higher levels of play. In a recent Emperor game, the AI hit the middle ages around 250bc. On monarch, it tends to get there shortly after the bc/ad changeover. I use the AI as the measuring stick here because I've taken to being a warmonger, which means beating tech out of the AI until the middle ages, and then settling down to build.

-Arrian

Coracle · June 20, 2002, 17:20

1280 AD is terrible even at Regent.

I find the tech tree runs four or more centuries too fast at Monarch.

sboog · June 20, 2002, 17:34

Yes. I am playing chieftain. I figured I was not doing that great.

sboog

alva · June 20, 2002, 18:09

quite simple put, the more contact you or the AI has: the quicker science moves along. Set up a game for you and 1 or 2 AI only, and see how long it takes to reach the middleages

Phil_de_geezer · June 21, 2002, 06:03

In a recent game on Deity (the horror!) i was happily researching horseback riding when the computer informed me that the English were building the Sistine Chapel. Not too sure of the date but it was before AD.

Me don't fink me ready fur Diety!

BTW, is it still possible to keep up with technology by setting taxes to 100% and trading for techs with version 1.21? I don't really like doing it because it feels like cheating.

sboog · June 21, 2002, 07:35

Quote:

Originally posted by alva848
quite simple put, the more contact you or the AI has: the quicker science moves along. Set up a game for you and 1 or 2 AI only, and see how long it takes to reach the middleages

alva848,

I don't quite understand what you mean by "the more contact you or the AI has." Do you mean contact between me and the other civ? Or do you mean the less civs there are, the quicker my turns roll around?

sboog

Arrian · June 21, 2002, 08:41

sboog,

Well, first of all, the AI is handicapped on Chieftain and Warlord. It operates with penalties to production and research, which effectively cripple it. Therefore, the human player ends up doing all the research him/herself, because there's no way the AI is gonna out-research you (at least not on chieftain).

The game will move faster on higher levels when the AI has either a level playing field (Regent) or has advantages (Monarch, Emperor, Deity).

CONTACT

As alva848 said, tech moves faster when large numbers of civs have contact with one another. This is due to tech devaluation. If a civ you know discovers a tech, there is a small drop in how much it takes to research that tech. If 2 know, it's a bigger drop, and so on. This will speed your research up.

-Arrian

sboog · June 21, 2002, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
sboog,

Well, first of all, the AI is handicapped on Chieftain and Warlord. It operates with penalties to production and research, which effectively cripple it. Therefore, the human player ends up doing all the research him/herself, because there's no way the AI is gonna out-research you (at least not on chieftain).

*But that's good for me, isn't it? I wouldn't want the AI to get ahead.

CONTACT

As alva848 said, tech moves faster when large numbers of civs have contact with one another. This is due to tech devaluation. If a civ you know discovers a tech, there is a small drop in how much it takes to research that tech. If 2 know, it's a bigger drop, and so on. This will speed your research up.

*So if I play with 7 civs the whole game will move faster date wise? And with 7 civs it won't cost as much per tech? I'm still not sure I get it.

sboog

Der PH · June 21, 2002, 10:56

Quote:

Originally posted by sboog
I don't quite understand what you mean by "the more contact you or the AI has." Do you mean contact between me and the other civ? Or do you mean the less civs there are, the quicker my turns roll around?

Contact between the AIs speeds up the tech development mainly because the AIs are madly trading techs among each other.
I usually play Monarch and the AIs enter Medieval Age some centuries BC.

I try to restrict early AI to AI tech trading by playing on Arcipelago maps, but it doesn't help as much as I would like.
Reducing the AI to AI trade rate in the editor didn't help either. If anyone does know a way how to solve this problem, PLEASE tell me! The high speed tech race in the Ancient Era is quite annoying and takes a lot of fun from the game (but not enough to stop me from playing

)

Arrian · June 21, 2002, 10:58

sboog,

The idea is that once a tech is discovered by someone, it's easier (cheaper) to discover. Thus, the devaluation once 1 or more civs have a tech. You may see this early in the game when you meet a civ that has a different starting tech than you, if you're researching that tech. You will see the # of turns drop for no apparent reason.

Thus, the reason the game moves faster at the higher levels is that the AI can actually research as fast, or faster than you, and there will be times when they are ahead. Catching up isn't necessarily all that hard. You can trade, build the Great Library, or beat tech out of the AI with brute force.

Also, the AI on the higher levels is actually able to afford to buy stuff from you, so you can make some money off of them, and set your science rate higher.

Plus, it may be that you are making some mistakes that are slowing you down, but I can't comment because I'm not looking over your shoulder. If you are determined to do all the research yourself (as is the case on Chieftain), I would suggest playing a Scientific civ, such as the Babylonians or Persians. The 1 free tech per Age will speed things up a bit, as will the cheap libraries and universities.

-Arrian

alva · June 21, 2002, 21:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
sboog,

Well, first of all, the AI is handicapped on Chieftain and Warlord. It operates with penalties to production and research, which effectively cripple it. Therefore, the human player ends up doing all the research him/herself, because there's no way the AI is gonna out-research you (at least not on chieftain).

The game will move faster on higher levels when the AI has either a level playing field (Regent) or has advantages (Monarch, Emperor, Deity).

CONTACT

As alva848 said, tech moves faster when large numbers of civs have contact with one another. This is due to tech devaluation. If a civ you know discovers a tech, there is a small drop in how much it takes to research that tech. If 2 know, it's a bigger drop, and so on. This will speed your research up.

-Arrian

i meant to say the same thing, but arrian explains it much better then i ever could

God · June 21, 2002, 23:52

On a monarch game I entered Middle Ages in the middle BC's thanks to scouts. I discovered Feudalism the 1st Middle Age tech to be discovered in the world at 440 AD.

GeneralTacticus · June 22, 2002, 01:03

Quote:

*But that's good for me, isn't it? I wouldn't want the AI to get ahead.

Well, it means that you will be ahead of the AI. But tech progression overall will be much slower. So, you may be an Era or more ahead of the AI by the end, but you will not have reached the end of the tech tree.

Master Marcus · June 22, 2002, 07:34

I've changed a bit ( but not that much ) some data in the editor: reduced AI to AI trade rate to 115 instead of 140 at Monarch, AND upgraded basic costs for late medieval techs ( as much as 250 for Magnetism,Democracy,Economics,Free Artistery,..., and made new prerequisites before Industrial ), AND EVEN WITH THAT: at Monarch huge map+16 civs, we're entering Middle Ages BC ( my last game as soon as 500 BC ), and Industrial 1260 AD ( instead of 1000-1100 before the changes ). At least we can use some late medieval units likle Cavalry and cannons a bit longer before it's too late. With the default settings, the AI gets industrial defenders ( Riflemen, Infantry ) much too soon for my taste.

One thing's for sure: if you're arriving at the Middle Ages after 0 AD at Monarch, you're not in the game.

Carver · June 22, 2002, 14:22

On my last (warlord) game I entered the middle ages at 460 AD, almost exactly when the Roman Empire fell. I thought that was cool.

HazieDaVampire · June 22, 2002, 15:17

i'm on easy and i managed to hit it by 100ad

sboog · June 22, 2002, 16:11

I must be hopeless, arriving at Middle Ages in 1280 AD.

sboog

dunk · June 24, 2002, 11:06

My last game on Regent, I entered the Middle Ages around 300-400 AD. I have been even with the AI on techs throughout the entire game. I am now in the Modern Age, got there around 1750 or so.

sboog... Cheiftan can really slow you down. What kind of map are you playing with? If you're on islands, science moves much slower since fewer civs have contact with each other. And considering you can't get ocean navigable ships until the end of the Middle Ages, you're not going to get much contact unless the islands happen to be close together.

Don't worry, it's not hopeless.

Keep playing. You're having fun aren't you? That's what counts.

sboog · June 24, 2002, 13:02

Quote:

Originally posted by dunk999

sboog... Cheiftan can really slow you down. What kind of map are you playing with? If you're on islands, science moves much slower since fewer civs have contact with each other. And considering you can't get ocean navigable ships until the end of the Middle Ages, you're not going to get much contact unless the islands happen to be close together.

Don't worry, it's not hopeless.

Keep playing. You're having fun aren't you? That's what counts.

dunk999, no wonder I am not moving ahead fast. You won't believe it but I AM playing on chieftain, on small map archipelago, AND only against TWO enemies.

From what everyone has been saying, I think I'll choose a larger map (but not huge - perhaps standard), go one level above chieftain, and play 6 or 7 civs (so I can trade techs.) And perhaps pangaea with less water.

I may get clobbered, but at least I'll be moving through the ages and the tech tree. Will let you know how it goes.

And yes, I am having fun.

sboog

Arrian · June 24, 2002, 14:21

sboog,

You may find that warlord is a much better level than chieftain, both in terms of learning the game and having fun. Chieftain is pretty close to playing in "sandbox" mode. On Warlord the AI, while still penalized, is much more capable.

A few tips for you:

Keep in mind that commerce is your friend. In order to speed up your research, you need to increase your overall commerce. Let's look at how commerce is generated:

Commerce is generated by certain terrain tiles and by roads. If you work a tile next to a river, it starts with 1 commerce. If you road it, it goes up to 2. Luxury resources have commerce bonusus, as do gold tiles. Coastal/Sea/Ocean squares all produce commerce.

How does one increase commerce?

First, build roads on all the tiles your citizens are working. Second, build cities. Third, make sure your cities grow (the bigger they are, the more tiles will be worked, and the more commerce will come in). Fourth, build improvements and wonders which augment your commerce, such as:

The Colossus (+1 trade to any tile which produces at least one in the city it's built in)
Copernicus' (+50% science in that city)
Newton (same as Copernicus)
Adam Smith (free upkeep on markets and banks)
SETI (same as Copernicus & Newtons)

Library: + science
Marketplace: + taxes, luxury bonus
University: +science
Bank: + taxes
Research Lab: + science

Also, you must build things that lower corruption, as corruption is no joke in CivIII. This means courthouses, police stations, and enough happiness stuff to get your people to celebrate "We Love the King Day." All of these things lower corruption.

There are also govermental factors. Despotism suffers from high corruption, and a commerce penalty. Monarchy suffers from medium corruption, and has "normal" commerce levels. Republic suffers from medium corruption, and has a trade bonus (+1 to every tile which already produces one). Communism... forget it, just remember that it sucks in nearly every case. Democracy has the lowest corruption, with the same commerce level as Republic.

Despotism and Monarchy have military policy (happiness) and unit support bonuses which Republic and Democracy do not have, so if you have a large military and/or a lack of luxuries, it may not be smart to switch to the "commerce friendly" governments at that time. Once you have your happiness issues under control and can manage a time of peace, definitely get yourself into Republic or Democracy and you will notice a HUGE upswing in your finances.

Building the Forbidden Palace is crucial. One must balance the desire for a "perfect" forbidden palace (defined as a FP far away from the capitol where it will have maximum effect) and an early forbidden palace. Generally speaking, a FP in a decent spot early is better than a FP in a perfect spot late. This is why I started fighting in the ancient era. My goal is to capture the territory where I want my FP and generate a great leader to rush it. Do this, and you've just doubled your empire's productivity. DOUBLED IT!

Other miscellanious factors:

-Golden Age timing. Bear in mind that the later your golden age is, the more developed your civ will be, and therefore the more powerful the GA will be. Of course, a good ancient golden age may put you in a dominant position for the rest of the game. I prefer the middle ages, but there are those who disagree.

-Trade with the AI. Once the AI makes the switch into republic, it usually has some money available (more and more the higher the level of play). You can get this money out of them by selling them resources, tech or maps. Do so. Don't sell them crucial things if you feel it will hurt you, obviously.

-The Tax/Tech slider. Be aware of the 4 and 40 turn research caps, and how to use the slider properly to avoid wasting huge sums of money due to the caps. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, ask.

-Arrian

DrFell · June 24, 2002, 14:39

Thanks to the speedy deity tech rate I virtually always arrive in the middle ages in the BC years, sometimes around 1000BC.

Carver · June 24, 2002, 14:56

Thanks Arrian, that's a good guide. I used to live in South Windsor, BTW. How is CT doing? When I left in '95 the darn cold war was over and everyone was unemployed.

dunk · June 24, 2002, 15:22

Adam Smith also gives you free Harbors and free Airports.

Capt Dizle · June 24, 2002, 15:27

Insofar as single player goes getting to specific parts of the tech tree by a certain date is not important. In many cases it is better not to research and not to trade techs with the AI. This will result in slower benchmarks to tech milestones but most often quicker dominance by the human player.

sboog · June 24, 2002, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
sboog,
.

-The Tax/Tech slider. Be aware of the 4 and 40 turn research caps, and how to use the slider properly to avoid wasting huge sums of money due to the caps. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, ask.

-Arrian

Arrian, thanks for your helpful message. I do know to slide the tax/tech thing in the domestic advisor, but what is the 4 and 40 turn research cap?

Also, from other advice I received in this thread, I started a new game today on Warlord against 5 enemies on a small map but with not much water. I did lots of trading (when I wasn't being tormented by barbarians - does being on Warlord set them off???)

Anyway, I arrived at the Middle Ages in 380 AD. (Lots sooner than my pathetic arrival the other day at 1280 AD.)

(Game is not over. But saved.)

sboog

Arrian · June 24, 2002, 16:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver
Thanks Arrian, that's a good guide. I used to live in South Windsor, BTW. How is CT doing? When I left in '95 the darn cold war was over and everyone was unemployed.

CT is doing fine, so far as I know. I work in insurance, which is the other industry besides making subs and choppers for the navy.

sboog,

The caps simply limit how fast or slow you can discover a tech. No matter how much research you throw at something, you cannot get it faster than 4 turns. On the other hand, so long as you put 1 beaker per turn towards it, it will not take more than 40.

So early in the game, since you're not bringing in very much commerce yet, it is sometimes worthwhile to turn research off, make 1 scientist in some corrupt backwater town and rake in the cash.

Later on, when your economy is developed, you will run into the 4 turn cap. Let's say your civ produces 100 commerce per turn. Let's say a certain tech costs 280 beakers to discover. If you set science at 100%, you will get the tech in 4 turns. If you set science to 70%, you will also get it in 4 turns, but you'll also gain the 30% tax revenue. ALWAYS check the slider the turn before you discover a tech. Why? Because your research begins anew with each discovery. If you throw 300 beakers at something that only needs 280, you waste 20 beakers. It doesn't carry over. Therefore, you will often find that on the last turn before discovery, you can turn your science rate way down, still discover the tech, and pull in a ton of cash.

-Arrian