Terract in Jenin!

Solly · June 21, 2002, 12:50

Israeli troops have fired tank shells at Palestinians in a marketplace in the West Bank town of Jenin, killing at least three civilians and injuring more than 20 others.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/2057847.stm

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 12:53

Horrible.

The official arguments will probably end up being along the lines of "they started it"

Sava · June 21, 2002, 12:55

And after days/weeks/months of anti-israeli trolling, it will be found out that these "civilians" all had ak-47s, explosives strapped to their chests, and maps of Israeli elementary schools.

SomeOneElse · June 21, 2002, 12:56

This is getting old Israel/Palestine, nobody is going to take either side seriously as long as this keeps up.

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 12:56

After weeks, namely exactly as soon as the IDF hits one of those guys accidentally. That'll be a new "yeah, we killed many mothers in ambulances, but weeks later there was a terrorist in an ambulance we destroyed without looking before, so that's an excuse for everything".

Solly · June 21, 2002, 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Horrible.

The official arguments will probably end up being along the lines of "they started it"

Or even the Apolyton arguments.

Arrian · June 21, 2002, 13:30

Quote:

An Israeli army spokeswoman told BBC News Online that the unit in Jenin had "erred in its action".

The army has begun an investigation into what it says are accidental killings.

I take it you fellas don't believe them?

-Arrian

chequita guevara · June 21, 2002, 13:32

I tend not to believe that army. It's difficult to accidentally shoot int a crowd.

Arrian · June 21, 2002, 13:36

Just checking.

We can't know for sure, though, since we didn't see it. I don't have faith that either combatant (Israel/Pals) will tell the whole truth about what happened. What's the saying? "Truth is the first casualty of war." Seems to apply.

-Arrian

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 13:38

I guess "one ofthem was running toward the tansk screaming and carrying many weapons, as well as an explosives belt and a nuclear bomb meant to be planted in New York City".

Chris 62 · June 21, 2002, 13:42

It would have to be a hell of a blast to reach here Andy.

I have no words for this, if they did kill civilians, they should be punished, on the other hand, there is every chance that the "innocents" were firing on them, we never get a clear picture till much later, so condemnations are pointless at this jucture.

Sprayber · June 21, 2002, 13:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris 62
It would have to be a hell of a blast to reach here Andy.

I have no words for this, if they did kill civilians, they should be punished, on the other hand, there is every chance that the "innocents" were firing on them, we never get a clear picture till much later, so condemnations are pointless at this jucture.

But Chris, holding condemnation until the facts come in wouldn't be the cool thing to do.

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 15:30

That's right.

I was relying on previous threads though.

Sirotnikov · June 21, 2002, 15:59

Actually it was a mistake.

There was a curfew, but apparently several Palestinians somehow got the idea that the curfew was over.

When they approached a group carrying out a mission of house to house search, a tank opened fire aimed near them, to scare them away, and possibly some troops opened fire as well.

The dead are a 50 y/o male and 3 children. If during the time of the shooting it was clear that those were innocent children, it would constitute and illegal order.

The problem is, that the curfew is there for a reason. The reason being, that IDF troops would have easier time, since the assumption is that civilians are obeying the curfew, and most disobeyers are people with malicious intent.

In another, unrelated incident, a kid was killed when a house near it was blown up. The house contained a laboratory for explosives. The houses around the target are always cleared, but it appears that the kid and his family didn't leave their home.

OneFootInTheGrave · June 21, 2002, 16:09

anyway.. I think that electrical fence is the best idea by far...

Eli · June 21, 2002, 16:29

Fences, fences, fences. The best solution, hide.

Bar Lev line, anyone?

OneFootInTheGrave · June 21, 2002, 16:47

It is like keeping cats and mioce in one cage and not to expect cats to eat the mice... if you want them both to live you have to build something in between.

Electrical fence could work in 90% of the cases for humans.

Bereta_Eder · June 21, 2002, 16:48

onefoot i like your banana.

OneFootInTheGrave · June 21, 2002, 16:49

+0

Bereta_Eder · June 21, 2002, 16:51

might i make a small suggestion concerning your sig:
make the link active in your sig and you will have more hits.
people are so lazy, it's scary. many won't type in, or ever cut and paste the URL into their browsers...

but most are click-happy so if it is active...

OneFootInTheGrave · June 21, 2002, 16:53

ah not to threadjack again... good idea

David Floyd · June 21, 2002, 17:50

Quote:

The problem is, that the curfew is there for a reason. The reason being, that IDF troops would have easier time, since the assumption is that civilians are obeying the curfew, and most disobeyers are people with malicious intent.

What scares me more is that this guy sees nothing wrong with curfews and house-to-house searches.

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 17:53

I like the banana, too. It's a better avatar than paiktis'.

Saint Marcus · June 21, 2002, 18:06

why don't we nuke both sides?

Sirotnikov · June 21, 2002, 18:19

Quote:

What scares me more is that this guy sees nothing wrong with curfews and house-to-house searches.

Again you prove yourself to be a total jerk.

A curfew (assuming it's kept by the populace) assures that civilians do not get in the middle of gun fights.

It helped to drastically reduce the amount of civilians getting killed. Which is a good thing.

House to house searches, are good because you manage to scan through the entire terrain to find weapons hideouts, and explosives laboratories. This is the basis of rooting out terror infrastructure. Which is a good thing.

Soon you'll tell me that the conquest of Germany in the end of WWII was evil?

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 18:20

Well Siro, nowadays people believe the Dresdeon bombing was evil, while some still find it necessary (which it wasn't). It's not the same league, but the idea behind the issue is the same.

Sirotnikov · June 21, 2002, 18:35

Ok, the dresden bombing wasn't nice.

I haven't decided if it was moral yet, but I keep on thinking. (Keep on thinking siro, we know you can do it if you really want to!

)

But the war in general.

I mean, wars are not nice! Just like curfews and searches!

David Floyd · June 21, 2002, 19:33

Quote:

A curfew (assuming it's kept by the populace) assures that civilians do not get in the middle of gun fights.

It helped to drastically reduce the amount of civilians getting killed. Which is a good thing.

It removes vital civil liberties, which is always a bad thing. Civilians can decide for themselves if they want to take risks, they don't need Big Brother.

Quote:

House to house searches, are good because you manage to scan through the entire terrain to find weapons hideouts, and explosives laboratories. This is the basis of rooting out terror infrastructure. Which is a good thing.

They're fine if you get a specific warrant from a judge detailing specifically what is being looked for in every case of a search, and there is reasonable cause to believe something illegal is being done. Otherwise, they are ridiculous limits on liberty.

Quote:

Soon you'll tell me that the conquest of Germany in the end of WWII was evil?

US involvement was certainly wrong, and any attacks on German civilians were wrong as well, as were restrictions on German civilians.

Quote:

I haven't decided if it was moral yet, but I keep on thinking.

You haven't yet decided if bombing civilians intentionally was moral or not? That doesn't really seem to be a tough one to me.

Quote:

I mean, wars are not nice! Just like curfews and searches!

Wait a minute, curfews and searches aren't nice? I thought you said above that they were intended to help civilians? How can that not be nice, unless that is not the real intent?

Further, just because wars are not nice does not justify actions during war.

Ecthy · June 21, 2002, 19:46

You haven't decided if bombing 700 000 civilians without any industrial or military significance is moral or not?

KrazyHorse · June 21, 2002, 19:47

They were Germans. Bombing Krauts is always moral.