So very cold (of the map generator)

Aeson · June 21, 2002, 18:26

I decided to fire up Civ III last night and start a new game. I wanted one of those epic games where I had a decent chance of being slaughtered at least for a large portion of the game.

The Settings:

Deity
Huge
80% water Continents
16 Civs
Raging Barbarians
Everything else random

I decided that I would play out the first 'bad' starting position that I ran into. That just happened to be the first starting position, this is what I got:

This is the landmass:

As you can see there isn't a whole lot of food available, only 2 city sites with more than 1 food source until harbors. The Iron is nice, but I had to fight for them as the AI was starting up colonies by the time I had 3 or 4 cities.

I got the barbarians under control somewhat early, but not before a stack of 24 Horsemen ran off with my treasury. I made contact the next turn with 1 AI, but was dead broke.

Once I got Iron working it went better. I waited for each of the colonies to grow to size 2, then captured them with Immortals. I even received some favorable peace treaties from the smaller AI's. I've started declaring war on small AI's in a Republic and waiting until they have to give in to war weariness, none of them have much chance to invade.

I'm pretty sure I can pull off a victory here, Spaceship or Diplomatic. Oil may be the saving grace of my holdings. I want to try and see if any of the others are possible though. If anyone else wants to try their hand at this map feel free (I realize the Huge map setting eliminates some from being able to play it), I'd love to see how it turns out for you! I'll write a bit more about my game as I get farther into it. At this point it's still rather in doubt

Oerdin · June 21, 2002, 18:53

My hat is off to you for even giving that deplorable map a go. Personally, I would have restarted and gone looking for greener pastures.

FrustratedPoet · June 21, 2002, 19:39

This thread runs very nicely in contrast to my 'Best start ever' thread.

On the one hand we have...
ME, a Civ3 Lamer, playing on a near-perfect start on Regent with less-than-max # of Civs and Sedentary Barbs.

On the other hand we have...
AESON, a Civ3 God, playing on a near-impossible start on Diety with max # of Civs and Raging Barbs...

I hope you win Aeson ...

good luck

(you got some Iron, though, man ... that's just cheap ... you suck

)

0 downloads so far????
OK then .. I'm gonna try this game ...

DrFell · June 21, 2002, 19:43

Dammit, this looks like a nice challenge, next time play on a smaller map though, don't know this thing can handle those kind of huge maps (tried a huge map game once, by the start of the AD years it was getting slow).

Catt · June 21, 2002, 19:56

I like being challenged by the game . . . but I'm not a masochist.

Catt

FrustratedPoet · June 21, 2002, 19:57

Ok then .... this thing is SICK!

SICK SICK SICK!

I was playing for about 10 minutes.
I lost 2 workers and 5 warriors to rampaging hordes of Barbarian horsemen.
Persepolis was sacked 3 times.
I quit in fear ....

Aeson: I can't imagine how anybody could win (or even get halfway into the game at all) from this position ... it seems impossible from where I'm sitting ... how do you do it?

Just before Persepolis was sacked for the third time I got this message: "Your people admire you so much, they offer to expand your palace blah blah blah". '

Are these people crazy?

Aeson · June 21, 2002, 19:59

Yah, the Iron really helps, not that I can invade with Immortals or anything, everyone has Musketmen or Riflemen by the time I could build my first galleys, but it makes for good trades.

Txurce · June 21, 2002, 20:46

Aeson, how do you catch up in tech to win the space race when you are so far behind that you have ancient-era units, and the AI is in the industrial age?

Having no answer to this question is one reason why I have yet to try Deity.

Jaguar · June 21, 2002, 22:13

I'll try it

I've never taken anything but a lucky start on deity, but this will be a bit more challenging than usual, to say the least.

Jaguar · June 21, 2002, 22:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Txurce
Aeson, how do you catch up in tech to win the space race when you are so far behind that you have ancient-era units, and the AI is in the industrial age?

You hurl abot 4 Immortals at every 1 of thiers, taking a few cities from them before they can react. Then you take all their tech (that you can negotiate for) in a treaty. Then you move on to another AI. You'll actually find yourself in 10th or so after not too long. But 16 civs is very hard... Ive only done it once.

Aeson · June 22, 2002, 00:22

Those barbs really do hurt! Gotta get a lot of warriors out and posted everywhere quickly. Barb encampments can't pop back up if there is a military unit around. Barb uprisings can only happen in the 'dark' (they need less of it than a barb encampment does).

I've been trading my Iron sources for 2 or sometimes 3 techs (when I can find a buyer), the Horses are sometimes good for a tech or luxury. Once you have contact with everyone the tech cost isn't so bad. To get the comms I just declared war on the civs which had colonies on my island. They all were in Republic at that time, and if you can wait them out long enough they start to give better deals. After getting a few comms it gets much cheaper to buy the rest.

I don't think any military action until the Modern Era is possible off of the starting continent though. With all that tundra I'm just hoping for oil to trade. The AI's are always lax about launching, which might be the only real hope on that map.

alva · June 22, 2002, 01:12

wow, this is really impressive!!!

:

good luck,!!!
like you need it

Aeson · June 22, 2002, 03:33

Ok, I started a new game on this map to try and recreate (and explain) what had happened up to about 1500BC (when things finally settled down) for anyone who wants to know how I got started. It didn't work out exactly the same (huts were different and such), but pretty close.

The real game is still at 290AD.

4000BC:
The starting location doesn't look so good

- on the coast, so the palace won't be centered very well
- only 1 decent food source in the city radius

So I decided to go look for a site further inland (to center) and with more food. I would have gone south (not that it would have helped) but I kind of liked the idea of building a frozen kingdom. My objective is to find a site with at least 2 tiles of 2 food for faster settler builds.

3700BC:
Scouted around the lake with my settler and worker looking for a second food source. I ruled out the fish to the south as I needed at least some production. Worker saw the game and so we're set. Built Persepolis by the lake, with the game available once the borders expand.

Started researching the Alphabet, at 10%.

3250BC:
Borders expand, warrior built. The warrior goes exploring and I use 10% luxuries to keep the city productive.

3150BC:
My worker building a road to the south can see a fish off the coast, looking for another food source nearby. It looks like an isthmus or peninsula south, bad news. My warrior heading towards a hut on a mountain to the north.

3100BC:
Getting the hut was a gamble, but as it was on a mountain I figured I had pretty good odds. It turned out to be barbarians, but my warrior held out only losing 2 HP's and was promoted to elite. There is also a fish off the coast. No other food nearby.

3000BC:
2nd warrior built. I want 3 before building a settler.

2900BC:
The worker see's a whale and game by the southern fish, definitely the second city site.

2800BC:
Found 25 gold in a goody hut, another fish off the coast.

2750BC:
3rd warrior built. Starting the first Settler. Lux increased to 20%.

2650BC:
It's official, I'm on an iceberg. Spot of luck with the 3rd hut, got Ceremonial Burial.

2430BC:
Settler is built, time for more warriors. Already have a road built to the southern site, will only take 2 turns to get there. I can see a purple border across the sea, and am tempted to build on the southern tip of the peninsula just to make contact. I would miss out on all the food though.

2310BC:
First barbs show up, to the east. Pasargadae is founded.

2270BC:
Got an upgrade when the barbs attacked my warrior to the east, no HP's lost. Looking for the encampment.

2330BC:
Another warrior built in Persepolis. Starting on a settler.

2190BC:
Found the eastern barb camp, its on a forest though. Have to attack it anyways.

2150BC:
My veteran warrior didn't even dent the barb camp, ouch!

2110BC:
Warrior built in Pasargadae, building a temple now to expand the borders and be able to use the fish and the whale.

1990BC:
Barb Horse shows up to the east, right next to my warrior. I kill it and take out the barb encampment two turns later. More barbs show up to the west.

1950BC:
Western barb camp spotted, I destroy it the next turn. Finished researching Alphabet, researching Writing at 10%.

1870BC:
Russia builds the collosus, and someone else built the Oracle. I only have built 5 warriors and a settler so far!

1725BC:
Settler in Persepolis built, headed back to the original starting point.

1500BC:
24 barb horses show up from the north, and the Indians build a city to the southwest. At least this time I have contact and can trade all my gold for techs.

I just ran my warriors away from the barbs, and let them sack Persepolis. After that I had enough warriors to keep the whole island scouted.

Alkis · June 22, 2002, 05:11

LOL!
I play random settings and accept every starting position but this one is unique. I can remember only one game that I had a position equally terrible.

Aeson, even if you don't win this game, my hat is off to you man, just for your determination.

Your walkthrough is also great, congrats.

P.S. I would had tried it too (maybe) but my PC slows down on huge maps and... ok I admit it, this is not the only reason

Aeson · June 22, 2002, 20:47

Ok, now for the real strategy... some of which even worked!

The one thing that tundra/coast tiles can compete with is commerce, my holdings having a goodly amount of rivers. Being scientific I debated about whether to go for research or gold. As I didn't have much production, libraries and universities would take a while, so I choose gold.

I bought most of my techs very cheap, India being my best source. China also was giving me techs for Iron, the Americans would sometimes give me a tech for Horses, and eventually I sold my only remaining Iron to India for even more techs. I was amazed at how well this was working, I was usually only 4 or 5 techs behind everyone else on average. This continued until almost through the Middle Ages.

Then I got my big break.

There I was sitting on my iceberg, thinking up some elaborate MPP schemes to allow me to scavenge a few mainland cities and finally start making a mark on the world. I wasn't paying too much attention to the rest of the world, just waiting until someone got to industrialization.

I didn't notice until the Zulu's were down to their last city that just about everyone was at war with them, and they were even with me on tech. Praying that my ships could make it there in time, I sent 4 Immortals to take Zimbabwe, which was on very good terrain.

The Zulu's put up a galant defense, holding off Cavalry, Knights, Riders, and Longbowmen just long enough for me to land my Immortals. A few turns later the city was mine.

I made preperations for a palace jump to the mainland, building several small cities on the iceberg so I could build the FP before jumping my palace.

India came to me and offered a MPP + ROP for only 3gpt, and I took it. They were my closest neighbors so it seemed a good idea. I had no idea what a megalomaniac Ghandi would turn out to be. Thinking back, I should have gotten techs instead of an ROP, which wasn't worth a lot for me, but was the big money part of the deal.

Ghandi immediately started a war with Japan, the closest neighbor to my newly conquered Zulu lands. I sent my 3 remaining Immortals to the south and attacked a former Zulu city that the Japanese were holding. I didn't want to wait until my MPP forced me to declare war. In the meantime, Ghandi organized a multinational coallition to take out the Japanese, just about everyone joined in.

Not satisfied with having everyone fighting the Japanese, Ghandi then proceeded to sign several (probably 20 in 20 turns) military alliances against various civs, and between that and MPP's, almost everyone was at war with everyone in short order. I was dreading being pulled into this by my MPP, but Ghandi offered 4 techs and 300 gold and so I resigned the agreement.

My Immortals were successful in taking Intombe to the south of Zimbabwe, giving me a ready built harbor connection. One of my Immortals became elite, my first upgrade since early on against the barbs. A few turns later my captured workers from the area hooked up the gems and I traded them both away, getting very good deals in return. Zimbabwe had rushed a settler, I was going to disband it and move further north, and build my own new capitol a bit south.

To the west, Japanese cities were being destroyed, being taken over by one nation after another, most being at war with each other. Somehow India was only attacked by 2 of the nations at war with it, Japan and Greece. Greece being far across the sea was no problem, Japan was in the process of being crushed.

My immortals were first to one Japanese city on the coast, only defended by 2 spearmen. In capturing the city my elite immortals were lead by the leader Darius, who would rule my new mainland empire from Dariush Kabir. I admit this is fantastically lucky, my only elite immortal spawning a leader on it's very first fight at elite status. This allowed me to forgo the palace jump and have Darius build the FP on the mainland, saving a lot of turns and forced starvations back home. I recieved democracy about this time, and although I was at war with 2 nations, I figured I could sign peace by the time my anarchy was finished, so the Persians finally went into revolution.

Finally my empire gained some food. The floodplains of the new holdings, combined with hills and mountains, should make for several very productive cities. I may even have a chance for some massive military campaigns once tanks are available. My MPP with India expires in 4 turns, at which time I can make peace with everyone, and watch the carnage from afar. My settlers are reclaiming much of the Japanese lands which have been razed. I just made it into a democracy, and can now buy Industrial Age techs every 4 turns of commerce. Things are starting to look good!

The Kingdom of Darius, 640AD

Alkis · June 23, 2002, 09:32

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Aeson
I was dreading being pulled into this by my MPP, but Ghandi offered 4 techs and 300 gold and so I resigned the agreement.

Can you please explain this? Ghandi (India) had a MPP with you. When and why did he offered you that? Or did you mean someone else?

dawidge · June 23, 2002, 12:06

He probably meant that twenty turns had passed and the treaty was up for renewal. He did mention that Ghandi had spent twenty turns signing various alliances, embargoes, and MPPs.

Pythagoras · June 23, 2002, 18:22

Wow mad props!

Aeson · June 23, 2002, 18:42

dawidge is correct. The first time around I got an ROP with India with the MPP, then 20 turns later the techs and gold. I guess it was because Ghandi was at war with so many civs that the MPP was worth more the second time around.

Theseus · June 23, 2002, 20:53

Shai Dorsai!!

Aeson · June 24, 2002, 00:28

Today I got a few more turns in. These I think will be the most important of the game. I was able to trade my way to 1 tech behind the leaders. I've never really been in this position before, usually I gain parity during the Middle Ages, so it was quite a learning experience.

Japan was still hanging in, but just barely. They were middle of the road tech wise, but a few ahead of me. Once they were down to 2 cities left I started funding their war effort for techs. It was somewhat of a gamble, as I gave almost all of my gold per turn, but with the odds as they were (4 vs 1 on the continent) I didn't think they could hold out much longer. It almost backfired as Japan was able to use my money to buy off 2 opponents, leaving only 2.

I also resigned my MPP with India.

To get the final Japanese tech I needed about 50 more gold per turn, and India was willing to pay 77 for the MPP. I guess it's goign to be another 20 turns of nailbiting, but with the alliances set up as they are now, I should be safe. The only problem may turn out to be forced trade cutoffs or war weariness if I get pulled in for too long.

Japan was eliminated about 5 turns after I made the deals thankfully, giving me 3 techs for less than 1000 gold, and my coal and iron during those turns. Then I bought Refining for 2300 gold from India, trading it for Electricity, Communism, and Scientific Method, it was my first positive tech trade of the whole game. I had been prebuilding ToE, but there still was no chance to get it, as my best production city at the time was size 6 and producing 9 shields. The only tech anyone else has is Replaceable Parts.

I found out that I had 2 oil sources, and another source tantalizingly close in Aztec territory. Until units which use them are available I can't trade them away though. I hope to time it so that I can get to Motorized Transportation about the same time as my new empire reaches a good production capacity. With all the AI's fighting so much, there should be plenty of opportunities for my tanks. China owns most of the center of the continent, a ROP and MPP with them would allow me almost free offensives with no chance for counterattacks on my own land. That's still 7 techs off though, which should allow me to trade away all my oil the first time around.

The only problem I encountered is that one of my deals was broken inadvertantly. The Germans are at war on their own continent, and they lost one of their luxuries they were trading to me, negating my iron deal with them which I had also gotten Espionage with. Now I can only trade per turn for per turn with most of the AI's, which might be a big problem later on. Right now I don't mind as gpt deals are better for me anyways. Once I build up the mainland empire with that money, I should be able to do some of my own research from now on.

The Japanese deals I could see getting a bad rep for (and even then, it wasn't my fault they couldn't keep accepting my money

), but things like this are just silly. It was the Germans who couldn't keep up the deal. An option to continue a deal in spite of part of it being broken would be nice.

Alkis · June 24, 2002, 02:33

I was misled by the word resigned (=abandoned). But apparently this word has another meaning (re-signed).

Anyway, it seems that you have chances now. The greatest danger, from my experience, is one civ becoming far too strong when the balance will be broken. I had a game on Deity with a terrible start where at some point I managed to catch up in technology. Then the Persians who had grown far too strong attacked me and I didn't manage to hold them. I made others declare war on them but the result was they became even stronger, winning every war and getting even more territory.

I agree with you about the deals. On the other hand you can exploit that if you don't care about your reputation (I' m sure you know how

)

-

Arrian · June 24, 2002, 10:39

Unfreakingbelieveable... except that I can SEE it unfolding before my eyes.

-Arrian

Harovan · June 24, 2002, 11:12

Yea, and pay attention to Aesons freakin' Borg style

dawidge · June 24, 2002, 19:21

A segue from the "Size DOES Matter" and "Appropriate city placement" threads

His placement is much like mine, more of a 3/5 hybrid. While the cities are no more than three apart from their nearest neighbor, you'll notice that he has an average of about 15 workable sectors per city (not that you can reach that on the iceberg). The resource limitations of the iceberg practically screams for a pur borg city arrangement because their growth will be stunted throughout the game. Growth on the island is driven by the few food bonus squares (game, fish, and water squares). Since I haven't gotten very far in trying to play this, yet, I think I'll restart it and go for a pure-borg approach on the iceberg. He's got 15 "home" cities on an island that can hold much more (rough guess at 20, it's hard to tell without gridlines) It will boost population growth (city centers get the +1 food) and very few of the internal sectors have the resources to grow beyond 2 population). Pack em dense to try to wring as much as possible out of it.

Aeson · June 25, 2002, 09:30

I did think about really packing the cities together on the iceberg, but I never had much of a chance to spare any pop points early on, and later I didn't want to give up any commerce as I was just barely keeping up. The tightly packed cities I built once I got a great leader, just so I had enough to build the FP.

Looking back though, sacrificing a few pop points early on would have paid off by now.

Aeson · June 25, 2002, 10:01

Played a lot last night, made it all the way to 1310AD.

I ended up signing a third straight MPP with India as they offered 350 gpt for it! In 60 turns with them at war with 3+ civs almost constantly, they only once got attacked on their own ground. Ghandi really can play the civs against each other...

After the third MPP was up Ghandi was out of gpt and so I cancelled it, but signed MPP's with China and the Aztecs. Motorized Transportation was coming up and I wanted to hit India hard and fast once it did. Ghandi had saved up 18k gold, so each city taken would pay off nicely. Also with a ROP from China most of his cities would be exposed to quick attacks.

It almost worked out like I'd hoped it would, but a few turns before Motorized Transportation, China attacked the Iroquois. Up till then I had stayed out of all major wars. I had to declare war on the Iroquois, so I sent a little expedition out to the Iroquois island to take their iron city. I took it with Marines and Infantry, but had no chance of holding it. So I gifted it to the Egyptians to save my remaining troops who were teleported back to my iceberg.

The Iroquois signed several alliances against me, almost everyone joined in except my MPP partners. It was a bit scary, as I had 8 or 9 Infantry and that was it.

I bought Motorized Transportation from India and then started pumping out tanks. I had saved up 16k of my own, and bought the tanks in almost all my cities every other turn. I was building about 10 tanks a turn on average.

I noticed a HUGE stack of American infantry headed my way through Chinese territory. I thought China was at war with them, but I guess not. I had to give China one of my 2 oil to get them to sign an alliance. I was hoping that the American troops would attack China instead of me, but they just kept on coming.

By the time they made it to my borders I had taken out a couple Indian cities. I forced the Americans down into the flats by building fortresses on the mountains and manning them with tanks and infantry. Most of my cities were completely empty.

Each turn my tanks would attack, usually killing 1 or 2 infantry each. Still it took me 8 or 9 turns to wipe out the stack. I kept them away from my cities by fortifying units in front of them and allowing an opening off to one side or the other. The just kept marching back and forth trying to get to my cities. I ended up getting 2 great leaders in the hundreds of battles I fought during those turns, one becoming an army, the other rushing the military academy.

I had gone into revolution about this time, as war weariness was getting really bad. My tanks from the iceberg were landed in India, and quickly took a few of their cities. I had terrible luck attacking Dehli though, losing 15 tanks in a row at one point. But my number prevailed in the end, and I razed the Indian capitol. I did catch a bit of a scare when my last oil (trading the other to China still) jumped into Indian territory. I quickly pillaged the roads to it so I wouldn't have to face any tanks, and continued my offensive to reclaim the Oil. I had barely enough tanks to take the last city necessary, losing my tank army and about 20 others. A great leader showed up though, so it was definitely worth it. My first wonder of the game will be the UN of course, not taking any chances that there will be a vote!

Then my MPP's with China and the Aztecs had run their course. I made peace with everyone but the Egyptians, who still won't talk to me. Most of them went to polite or gracious! Only Rome who I never went to war with is still annoyed with me, along with India and the Iroquois because I razed cities of theirs. It really makes no sense.

My wars were quite successful, but they would have been much more so if the American troops hadn't been able to make their way through China. Most of my tanks were held up on that stack, otherwise I could have taken out India completely, and a good chunck of someone else too. The number of wars between civs was astounding to this point. Every civ must have been at war with just about everyone else at the peak, and it's been like that for about 50 turns now.

Babylon had reached the modern era by the end of the war, and I bought the Radio to reach it myself. Then I sold the Radio and Rocketry to everyone who still had money, making most of what I spent rushing tanks back. My reputation is shot though, the MPP induced wars broke a lot of agreements. Not that it should matter now.

Now I'm just building up tanks to upgrade to modern armor. I'll probably have to launch the spaceship before I can complete any sort of conquest or domination, but I'm going to try anyways.

India: Purple
China: Light Blue
Aztecs: Blue/Green
America: Grey
Iroquois: Light Pink
Egyptians: Yellow
Rome: Red
Germany: Blue
Babylon: Dark Blue
Greece: Dark Red
French: Pink
Russians: Brown
English: Orange

Aeson · June 25, 2002, 10:04

oops, quoted myself instead of editing

Arrian · June 25, 2002, 10:08

Livin' and dyin' by the MPP, I see. Are the Indian cities you took useful (as in close to the FP)?

How do you intend to win? Surely you can't dominate. Has to be SS, right?

-Arrian

Aeson · June 25, 2002, 10:14

You caught me right before the edit Arrian.

I doubt I can get a domination or conquest, but with 100-200 modern armor anything is possible. The AI's have been fighting amongst themselves enough to keep the tech rate really low for Deity, the Indians had been doing almost all the research and now they are toast.

I disbanded all the Indian cities, or razed them then rebuilt, so my cities won't flip at least. I think they are close enough to my capitol to be at least marginally productive. With all the cash I have though, most of my tanks will be made of gold.