Moo, Average, AI Question

marlo_kalbo · June 25, 2002, 06:20

How does the AI produce alot of ships at the beginning of average-type games? I thought there were no production bonuses there? But each time I play, I can see colony ships moving around my perimeter at about the 10th or so turn, especially the Darlok race? This intrigues me because I have tried alot of things to increase my ship production, but I can't duplicate the same feat, even if I am using Klackons or Sakkras.

vmxa1 · June 25, 2002, 12:35

I can not give a I know the code answer, but it can only be due to 1) racial bonus or 2( cheats. The game does some cheating. You can look at the race traits to see if they have production bonuses. If they do and are a non pollution race they can get a good jump, especially if they keep most bodies on production.

marlo_kalbo · June 25, 2002, 23:55

I am talking about the first MOO.

vmxa1 · June 26, 2002, 00:19

No difference. In Moo you go to to race selection and it tells you what trait a given race has. Meks have 2 extra factories per level per person, so can produce faster than most. Klac get double production per person, so can buy things. Psilons get extra research. So these and saks can afford to do things to boost one area without suffering. I suspect it is a game cheat, though.

marlo_kalbo · June 26, 2002, 01:17

>Meks have 2 extra factories per level per person, so >can produce faster than most.

If you are using the Meks, you produce SLOWER, until you can use the extra factory advantage, that is, once you have more factories than twice your maximum population per planet.

>I suspect it is a game cheat, though.

Well I really would like to have an answer other than this

to boost my play.

vmxa1 · June 26, 2002, 12:18

Well if you are playing in an avg size universe as oppose to a large or huge at avg level difficulty you will not see anyone unless they are very close to you. So I presume you are using the alt galaxy code to see the whole universe. If you do, you should see the races grow at a standard rate. You will not see colonies zooming all around you. The Saks have not even make any colony ships at that time, only one extra scout. They have two planets, same as me. They have 77 pop at home planet with with 109 factories. The second is much better than my second at 3 fac and 49 pop. I (klac) have 123 fac and 77 pop at HW. Only 5 pop at second planet. Two races have made a second colony ship, but have not used it. I could make a colony ship in 7 turns and still have production left over, if I wished to do so. That seems to me to be a level playing field. If they have the same number of planets as me they are in big trouble. I normally play hard or impossible and do not built colony ships until I finish making all of the factories at my HW and often wait one or two extra turns to give my research a jump start. I then put as much as I can into making a colony ship. The AI will have at least 3 planets and often more by then. Of course the AI gets boost and I suffer a penalty at those levels so I will have fallen behind. If the maps if good for me, then I will soon be closing the gap. By the time the first vote comes up, I will be nominated, unless at impossible and have a unkind map. For all pactical purposes I have already won, but will play on as I will get into some serious tight spots that will be fun to get out of.

Urban Ranger · July 4, 2002, 04:37

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Klac get 1 gold per person, instead of .5 per person, so can buy things.

Gold? Klacs don't get extra gold, they get extra production.

Urban Ranger · July 4, 2002, 04:40

While I can't tell if it is a game cheat, you can build up your production quickly if you are playing the Klacs. Instead of pumping production into building factories, put all of it into environment. This boosts your population. Since a Klac population works as well as a factory, you get all the advantages without paying for waste elimination.

It's not worth the money for the Klacs to build factories until you at least get Improved Robotics III.

vmxa1 · July 4, 2002, 14:39

Well, I have to take my lumps. I should know better than to except what I read as fact. I ran test and it is double production. The only way the numbers work is if you use (fac*2)-pollution and pop*.5=total bc. An additional bonus for Klacs according to the strat guide is the yield more RP than other races. 1.48 per pop as oppose to other races as 1.00. This goes up as terraforming techs are learned.

vmxa1 · July 4, 2002, 14:50

Quote:

Originally posted by marlo_kalbo
>Meks have 2 extra factories per level per person, so >can produce faster than most.

If you are using the Meks, you produce SLOWER, until you can use the extra factory advantage, that is, once you have more factories than twice your maximum population per planet.

Not sure why the level is mentioned as it does not matter, they get to have 2 more factories per pop. If they are at Rob II that means 4, if Rob III that means 5.
They do not have to be at max pop to take advantage of this. If they have 40 pop to start and 30 factories they are not able to use this trait. If they make only factories and get to say 50 pop and 150 factories they are partially using it, if at Rob II. That is a normal race would only be able to have and operate 2 factories per pop (100) and they can have up 200. If they concentrate on factories, they can get to 4/pop before hitting pop max for the planet and they should.

vmxa1 · July 4, 2002, 14:59

Quote:

Originally posted by marlo_kalbo
How does the AI produce alot of ships at the beginning of average-type games? I thought there were no production bonuses there? But each time I play, I can see colony ships moving around my perimeter at about the 10th or so turn, especially the Darlok race? This intrigues me because I have tried alot of things to increase my ship production, but I can't duplicate the same feat, even if I am using Klackons or Sakkras.

I do not see this phenom as I said, so I can not answer. Maybe you could attach the save1 from turn 0 and then a save from the turn you see this and I could try to duplicate it and see why.

vmxa1 · July 4, 2002, 23:44

I did not see any extra colony ship at avg diff with med galaxy. I tried hard with and impossible diff and it was the same. I tried huge map with avg diff and did see many extra scout/fighters. One race had an second colony ship and the darks have made 3 more colonies by 10th turn. So it looks like the size of the universe may have an impact. I should not think a race could crank out 2 extra colony ships in less than 10 turns?? One yes, but 4 colonies already?

Urban Ranger · July 5, 2002, 02:41

I tried a couple of games playing as Klacs. Even though I expand like mad there is one race that will have more colonies than I do, and this includes the Psilons.

So yeah, I suspect a game cheat somewhere.

vmxa1 · July 5, 2002, 11:53

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Well, I have to take my lumps. I should know better than to except what I read as fact. I ran test and it is double production. The only way the numbers work is if you use (fac*2)-pollution and pop*.5=total bc. An additional bonus for Klacs according to the strat guide is the yield more RP than other races. 1.48 per pop as oppose to other races as 1.00. This goes up as terraforming techs are learned.

It appears I have lost my mind. I looked at the test runs again. The run where I concluded the Klac do not get the 1 BC was actual using the Sillies. I ran with them and then Klacs and then Meks.
It looks like the Klacs do get 1.48 rp for each pop on science. Now look at this run:
Turn 1 82 BC 30 factories 50 pop
T 10 193 BC 113 " 77 "
T + 239 " 153 " 83 "
That looks to me as if is being calculated as 1/pop + 1/fac with some rounding. If you slide all to research, it comes out on turn 2 as 52 pop yielding 76 rp or 1.48/pop. This was run on avg level. I can only guess that the factory is double production and the .5 is applied to the turn one 30 factories and then to the doubled production. This yields 30*.5=15 then again to the bonus. That yields 15+15 pollution subtracted from the double production (60) for a net of 30. Add the 1 bc per pop = 50. Total 50+30 gets to the 82 they reflect. The formula and timing seems to have some rounding an accounts for the less than exact values. The other races do not get 1 BC/pop.

vmxa1 · July 6, 2002, 23:01

One passs at Large, Avg, 5 players, is that the one you use? Anyway at 2310: Mrrs had 2 planets and 3 scouts, Psilons 2 planets 2 colony ships 2 scouts, Human 2 planets 1 cs 1 scout, Darloks 2 planets 2 cs 6 scouts, I had 2 planets and 2 scouts.
2319 Psilons 4 colony ships 2 planets.
2323 two races had 4 colony ships and one had 3 planets. Just to see how many I could crank out, I went to all colony ship production at 2310 and by 2339 I had 8 planets and 1 cs in route and one building. It was not a real good test as I had landed at the top and had lots of planets buffered by three non habitables. Many of the planets were other than standard, so some races had a slow start. The Psilons could have done better and soon were ahead in planets as I could only get to 13/14 before I ran into no where to go.

Urban Ranger · July 7, 2002, 10:13

I ran a couple of quick games in huge/average with max number of players. In one game the Burs had most planets when I ran into other races. The other one the Psilons had most. Both had more than me - almost doubled my number of planets

vmxa1 · July 7, 2002, 12:34

That seems to fit. The larger the universe, the more they seem to grow. I still do not see them with lots of colony ships by turn 10. It also is a function of the planet types. If lots of hostile planets, the AI does not make them as fast.
Urban, did you check on the .5 vs 1 bc for the klacs?

AIL · January 6, 2003, 15:48

I tested it too and 4 turns in a row they got a CS every turn. However, that only happend, when they had no further planets in range.

What do you wan't to be checked about the Klacks? They of course produce more with factories! But a Unit of Pop has double the prod than those of other races. It's not always 0.5 vs 1 since the Ecology Level also increases the productivity of Population. Klackons just have this effect doubled.

Urban Ranger · January 7, 2003, 23:06

I just can't understand how can Psilons or Burs could have more colonies than Klacs on an average setting, and I was playing the equivalent of ICS in space.

vmxa1 · January 7, 2003, 23:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I just can't understand how can Psilons or Burs could have more colonies than Klacs on an average setting, and I was playing the equivalent of ICS in space.

I know the Psilons have done it to me any times on impossible. On avg, you would think not. The one reasons is that the Klacs weakness in research of propulsion. They will usually not get any engines for a long time and they do not get range tech early. This has made it hard for me to expand a number of times, unless I put resources into propulsion.

Cxwf · January 20, 2003, 19:25

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

It appears I have lost my mind. I looked at the test runs again. The run where I concluded the Klac do not get the 1 BC was actual using the Sillies. I ran with them and then Klacs and then Meks.
It looks like the Klacs do get 1.48 rp for each pop on science. Now look at this run:
Turn 1 82 BC 30 factories 50 pop
T 10 193 BC 113 " 77 "
T + 239 " 153 " 83 "
That looks to me as if is being calculated as 1/pop + 1/fac with some rounding. If you slide all to research, it comes out on turn 2 as 52 pop yielding 76 rp or 1.48/pop. This was run on avg level. I can only guess that the factory is double production and the .5 is applied to the turn one 30 factories and then to the doubled production. This yields 30*.5=15 then again to the bonus. That yields 15+15 pollution subtracted from the double production (60) for a net of 30. Add the 1 bc per pop = 50. Total 50+30 gets to the 82 they reflect. The formula and timing seems to have some rounding an accounts for the less than exact values. The other races do not get 1 BC/pop.

You've got it slightly wrong. First of all, it's not rounding, its your planetology tech thats throwing those numbers off. Each race gets .5 prod + .02 per Planet tech level, except Klacks who get 1 + .04 per tech level. The thing is, you don't start with 0 tech, you start with 1 tech, so you get 1.04 per pop at beginning. Factories always give +1 prod each no matter what, but the effects of pollution make them effectively +.5 each at beginning.

Switching to research changes nothing. You still generate exactly the same points from pop (not 1.5 or 1.48 or anything), but you also get all your normal points from factories. Strangely enough, factories can generate research in Moo1. Test it--compare the values for RP per turn with values for factories built per turn (before you get minus factory cost techs). They should be the same with a decimal place difference (since factories cost 10 each).

Of course, taxes are a different issue from pollution--both have to be paid separately. Except that pollution doesn't actually HAVE to be paid, you just usually want to. Taxes disappear before you even start building (reflected by the 2 numbers for production at the top right, after and before taxes respectively).

Edit--its not 2% and 4%, its 3% and 6%. Couldn't really tell for sure until I checked on a planet with exactly 100 population.

vmxa1 · January 20, 2003, 20:17

Worker Productivity Formula

RP per worker per turn

(planetology tech level X 3) + 50
---------------------------------------------
100

The result is mulpied by pop and rounded down. The max is 3.47 RP per worker.
So at level 17 it becomes 1.01 per worker or more than a factory.
Klac get double for each worker, hence at level 17 they would be 2.02 and max at 6.94 at level 99.
So theh do get 1.48 at levle 8. I should have looked up the formula and applied it. I did not consider the planetology tech.

Cxwf · January 20, 2003, 22:21

Yes that sounds right. But the other thing I was saying though was that RP and points spent on anything else are all generated exactly the same way (unless its a rich, poor, or artifact planet). That's not just an RP formula, its a production formula.

vmxa1 · January 21, 2003, 02:29

RP resource point = RP research points = BC. There are interchangeable. So yes that is correct.

Urban Ranger · January 21, 2003, 07:20

So it pays to boost planetology? Cool.