SPIES... Good or Bad for game balance

[Ming]

In a conversation with War4ever last night, the topic of Spies came up.

We both seemed to agree that they are far too powerful.

A stack of vet spies can trash a city in single turn... only in most cases to return and do it to another city in the very next turn.

And then their tech stealing ability really sucks the fun out of the game too...

Discuss

[rah]

Yes, the last time I built a city 2 squares away from Bird's capital, as soon as I got espionage, he was forced to move his capital. 4 vet spies devestated his city in a couple of turns, and kept returning to go again until there was no improvements left. Then, one a turn to kill production. Without specifying a target, the odds of the spy getting caught were almost nill. And even for the rare one lost, 30 shields and here we go again.

Their ignoring the tech stolen already city flag is also obnoxious. It is very difficult to defend against.

I don't know what the best solution is though, just outright banning them doesn't seem right.

RAH

[Frank Johnson]

Well spies are typically late game....

If you allow you opponents to get to them expect trouble.

But really once you have had a line of diplos thrown at you, you just begin to accept it all. Thats how the game is played, in civ2 anyway.

If there were no way to defeat city walls for example, then defenders would always win. Walls provide a 200% bonus, but units typically only attack 100% better than they defend (legions 4/2, armor 10/5 etc)

So even with a tech advantage, it becomes and major pain to attack an city. Once the stalemate develops, in come the diplos and spies, to knock out the infastructure, destroy the economic abilities of the sides, then the attrition starts and the walls start falling, and a big battle emmerges. Diplos and spies offer the only realistic ability for a person to get their tech caught up. I have had 10 techs stolen in a single turn. In the end, it didnt help since he immediately had to fight a war and wasnt able to use any but the war techs to help, while my cities had time to develop the factories, banks, etc....he had no such luxury.

[rah]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
If there were no way to defeat city walls for example, then defenders would always win. Walls provide a 200% bonus, but units typically only attack 100% better than they defend (legions 4/2, armor 10/5 etc)

Not really, Vet calvary can be quit effective against even rifles behind walls. Artillary also. I won't even discuss howies, since they come later.

Diplos are annoying but at least they get destroyed when you use them, only move 2 and can only steal from a city once.

That three movement is much tougher to defend against. Even if you build fortresses on rail networks, a spy maybe able to move around it and continue.

Against the AI, it's not really a problem because the AI will seldomly use them effectively and won't use them from directly off ships as much. But against others, they can be too effective.

If you beline towards it, they can come pretty early in the game. (granted it means bypassing a lot of other useful techs, but they can be easily stolen)

RAH

[Frank Johnson]

Well its the same situation cavalry attacks at 8, riflemen defend at 4.

If they were veteran it would be 12 and 6.

Veteran status always helps the defender more because that bonus affects the "base rating" of the defender, which all the other bonuses, such as walls, terrain, and fortification come in.

Anyway tactics give you both cavalry and apline troops, which defend at 5, so that comparison isn't even fair really.


Artillery I'll give you, thats one of the first break out offensive techs, but you're still dealing with a 1 move unit, but by time the rails come in and change everything.

[rah]

I wasn't really argueing your stated ratio of attack vs defense. I was more rambling that building city walls doesn't make a city invincible. When planing attacks against cities with walls, thoughout history, it is assumed that the attacker will suffer more losses. In Civ it's no different. You have to prepared to overwelm or risk not gaining anything with a half hearted attack.
Waves of Vet Calvary are effective.

Heck, Before pikemen, Vet crusaders will do the job against walls. Just make sure you bring enough. (or enough diplos )

But it is difficult to see 10 city improvements that took thousands of years to build, destroyed by 30 shield spys that aren't even destroyed when they do it and are back the next turn.

RAH

[Frank Johnson]

Hehe well I won't defend the "realism" of spies either.

But who REALLY likes civ3's options any better? I mean its a spy, not a slot machine, and thats the way civ3 is.

[rah]

I stopped playing III already, but not before seeing how pathetic spying options were. Spys aren't the only slot machine aspect of civ3 Which is the main reason I still prefer two........naw, it's totally because of MP, but that will probably change once MP is available in III. Then I'll be still be playing II because III sucks.

RAH

[War4ever]

well Rah if were into banning nukes (as they unbalance the game ) i feel as though spies should not be allowed to poison water supply down to 1 nor be used for a suitcase bomb...in reality the spy is far more deadlier than the nuke......

so were at a crossroads here...

dips i can deal with..repeated tech stealing from the same unit....

[rah]

The stealing a new tech every turn from the same city is the most annoying of all.

I'm not sure I'd want to ban them, but I could be convinced.
But it might be problematic, since with leos diplos would upgrade, and once you get espionage diplos would be obsolete.
*sigh* more changes to the rules.txt
Still don't know if I want to go down that path, but if most of the people desire it, I'll succumb.

RAH

[War4ever]

espionage is a dead end tech....so keep your diplos

[rah]

Opps, forgot about that. That would make it easier.

What do others think? I'm still a little wishy washy on this one.

RAH

[Ming]

Originally posted by War4ever
espionage is a dead end tech....so keep your diplos

Good point... it's an easy "rules.txt" change to remove espionage from the tech tree. It doesn't effect any other part of the game or tech tree

[War4ever]

heres my votes so far...

Oracle expires RR
NO GW
NO spies/ no nukes

pyamids expires with refridgeration?? i really like the realism this one brings..besides by then you dont' really need the pyramids

[rah]

I like oracle expiring at Steam engine. (like it makes a big difference )

No GW, has already been added, if you were paying attention

No spies/no nukes. (but not changing any of the game files, if you're dumb enough to choose espionage, you lose the ability to make any more diplos.

Pyramids, why bother changing it. If the norm becomes 2 or 3 session games, we'll discuss it then.

RAH

And this should really be done in the RAH rules thread.
To give everyone else a chance to voice their opinion.

[War4ever]

hey Ming started the thread didn't he

i was paying attention

fine..Steam Engine...your rules after all

fine with pyramids too

[rah]

Those were just my opinions and not meant to be final. I hope it didn't sound that way.

I would like to wait to see what others think.

RAH

[War4ever]

agreed...but seeing as You, Ming and I are the three regulars for this group i figured our votes counted for more....

everyone else just sort of fills in

[rah]

As the sacred holder of "RAH RULES", that last statement from WAR4 does not reflect the opinions of management. All the regular's opinions are important.

RAH
Take that!

[War4ever]

typical upper management.....can't handle the controversy supplied by its workers

[rah]

That's why I get paid the big BUCKS.
Sensitive to the needs of all the little people

RAH

[War4ever]

lol...fair enough, i need to run...take this blond hair dye out ......good chatting with you...lets implement those changes into rah rules and don't go on the river boat ...but if you do....good luck

[-Jrabbit]

I know I'm not a MP regular, but the issue of spies and game balance is of interest to me. (Probably because they're a great crutch for an inexperienced player like me )

Looking at the incredible upgrade in abilities you get compared to dips (WAY out of proportion to any other incremental unit change in the game), the question is not "Good or bad for game balance" but rather "Obviously bad -- so what do we do about it?"

If I could redesign them, I'd do 3 things --

1. Make them disappear like dips when used (except for Investigate City/Establish Embassy free, which seems fair enough).
2. Eliminate suitcase nuke. This is just stupid and unfair.
3. One of the following
(a) Raise the cost (40? 50?) or
(b) Charge the home city 1-2 GP per turn for upkeep.

[StrategicKingMi]

Best way to defend against them, is not to allow them close to your citys in the first place.
In battles where each player has a different cont, you can do this by destroying any city in range of your cont long before espinage is created and in other areas by bypassing possible targets of destroyers/cruisers that are usually unstacked and searching for transports or double stacked ships.
Or use rules.txt to increase thier cost to like 80 -100 gold which is equivelent to thier value.

[deity]

They are very powerfull but I like them.
It's a strategic choice and a good part of the overall game balance.

[rah]

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Best way to defend against them, is not to allow them close to your citys in the first place.
In battles where each player has a different cont, you can do this by destroying any city in range of your cont long before espinage is created and in other areas by bypassing possible targets of destroyers/cruisers that are usually unstacked and searching for transports or double stacked ships.
Or use rules.txt to increase thier cost to like 80 -100 gold which is equivelent to thier value.

Well that's the rub. When we play, a 39-49 map with large continents means you're all on the same darn continent, and you're not that far from each other. So keeping their cities far from yours usually isn't very realistic. Also on that small of a map, some of your cities are near the coast, and while a good navy helps defend that, it's not a guarentee. By the time espionage comes, the borders are a bit blurry.

Even 80-100 gold may be undervalued for a vet spy, considering the same spy may be able to destroy over a 1000 shields of an enemies production and gain you 3 or 4 caravans worth of tech bonus.

RAH

[Chris 62]

God, I loathe the little monsters.

They are a disaster, I'll never understand the rationel for their addition to the game, they should be banished forever into the void.

A word of caution, you can muck around with them change their abilites, but it does strange things to the Civ-2 MGE engine, in some scenarios were they are altered and removed diplomancy is impossible (I know this sounds odd, but it happens), and I have seen it where the Diplo/spy will not funtion (you attempt to move it into an enemy city, but the spy subscreen will not activate).

As for play balence, I think it destroys the hard work of good players, is a cheap fix for the weaker player, and an EXTREMLY unfair advantge to the strong player.

The damn things force you to sometimes stay in democracy when you'd rather go fundy and whip some bum's backside.

In one HOTW game 2 of my diplos destroyed an attacking army of 17 Crusaders (I bribed two, and ol Ozzy had several nice stacks ready to be crushed nearby), a totally nonsense result considering I only had 28 units at turn's start and was the victim of a sneak attack.

You can house rule them to no city bribe, but for me personally, they suck, and I can easily live without them.

[Caesar the Great]

well... most of my games usually don't last long enough to see espionage... but even in early games as soon as players get writing it almost becomes diplomat wars, stacking units to prevent bribes, building cities on rough terrain so opponents can't steal techs etc

on the other hand i've generally been fond of wars of attrition...

but on the other hand stealing multiple techs from the same city doesn't really seem right, and suitcase nukes are a bit too powerful... but if their cost was raised and say they expired by laser?

[drake]

Yes, but Chris, when an insurmountable lead is achieved by ones opponent, how else is the small, weak and underdeveloped player supposed to catch up with the big dog? Fighting dirty is the only way.

Hmm....sounds familiar doesnt it? (ME)

[Chris 62]

Abject surrender.

If your that far behind, it can't all be terrain or luck, the player had something to do with it.

Hate those little devils.