SPIES... Good or Bad for game balance - Page 2

drake · June 26, 2002, 11:54

In a game where war is prevelant, and people like to have fun, surrendering should only happen after atleast one attempt at david bringing down goliath.

I think the most fun game I ever played (mainly because of the end result

), was the one with Suas, Epik and Sun. Suas and Epik were much more advanced in science than sun and I, and Suas's empire was gargantuan. But us underdogs duked em out right anyway and it was tons of fun. Sun was launching nukes as fast as he could make them and I was slowly eating Suas's resources away with my tanks and howitzers, funded by my Fundy govt.

The year before Suas's ship was to land, a spy infiltrated America, and nuked the crap out of his cap. Ship returned. Several turns later Epik launched his ship, and my ground units were able to sack his capital as well.........without the use of a spy I would have had no chance to make these things happen and goliath would have won. And how boring and predictable that wouldve been....spies give the outclassed civ atleast a small shot, so I say bless the little bastards!

Deity Dude · June 27, 2002, 00:41

if nothing else they should be called terrorists instead of spies

Smash · June 27, 2002, 00:48

If you're ahead they suck.
If you're behind they rule.

Unfortunately most games never come close to seeing what can be done with them.Being the "leader" means nothing when the lovely ladies are about

atawa · June 27, 2002, 07:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Smash
If you're ahead they suck.
If you're behind they rule.

Unfortunately most games never come close to seeing what can be done with them.Being the "leader" means nothing when the lovely ladies are about

They are quite good when you're ahead actualy.

Just make sure peole cant steal it on the turn you invent espionage.
Then start sending out the hordes

War4ever · June 27, 2002, 08:52

I think the whole point here is that spies just ruin the game , kinda like howies and nukes......

nothing worse than your size 24 city being reduced to 1 when a few spies poison the water supply....

if your going to limit nukes in a game for gameplay balance...i firmly believe the spy should be eliminated as well....

howies i can live with.....but spies move three spaces ignore ZOC and , well are pretty much going to wreak havoc... on both sides of the coin...

your whole civ can be ruined without firing a shot....seems silly to me...

but we still play with them and your right, when your behind , it seems like the only even upper....especially with the repeated tech stealing abilities

rah · July 1, 2002, 10:42

It makes it too easy to catch up. You can have played your best game ever, and it doesn't count for anything.

Of course the easiest solution is to eliminate or so totaly devasted your opponents prior so they'll refuse to continue.

RAH

War4ever · July 1, 2002, 12:38

the topic of spies really does need to be adressed one way or another for Rah rules..... although spies are not in every game, fast players and an early start = spies....

with intra kd trading , its not unlikely to reach these little monsters...but if were not curbing them, then i will continue to build nukes and launch them

rah · July 1, 2002, 13:48

If we get enough players discussing this in the RAH rules thread. We can probably come to an agreement.

War4ever · July 1, 2002, 13:54

well thats what the spy thread is all about .......to talk about it, it doesn't matter where we do it ..so long as others in the forum voice theri opinion, then we can do a poll and Democracy rules

rah · July 1, 2002, 14:08

Heck, I like to see some of other regulars check in here and voice their opinion. Like Barono, Markus, Passout, FF, Berz, Smartfart, etc.

markusf · July 1, 2002, 14:18

If there is no water between you and the other guy, the one with the most spies wins. First you destroy all improvements then you posion all cities down to size one. If you come at someone with 40 spies and they don't have any spy defenders they are toast.
spy = poor mans nuke

rah · July 1, 2002, 14:39

So what's your opinion about whether they should be in the game or not?

Rich

markusf · July 1, 2002, 14:47

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
So what's your opinion about whether they should be in the game or not?

Rich

depends on if i am winning or not

The spy nuke should be banned but other then that they are ok..., but franky you got a far bigger problem with howies/artillery.

War4ever · July 1, 2002, 14:50

the poison water should be banned too...howies should have mp reduced to 1 then you can't drop and roll

ravagon · July 1, 2002, 21:34

Quote:

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Looking at the incredible upgrade in abilities you get compared to dips (WAY out of proportion to any other incremental unit change in the game), the question is not "Good or bad for game balance" but rather "Obviously bad -- so what do we do about it?"

If I could redesign them, I'd do 3 things --

1. Make them disappear like dips when used (except for Investigate City/Establish Embassy free, which seems fair enough).
2. Eliminate suitcase nuke. This is just stupid and unfair.
3. One of the following
(a) Raise the cost (40? 50?) or
(b) Charge the home city 1-2 GP per turn for upkeep.

1. I don't think you can do this without changing the units slot. If you do change the slot it will become identical to a diplo save for the obvious differences in the unit parameters in the rules.txt entry.

2. If nukes are out anyway then you can just disable nuc fission (IIRC) and they won't ever have the option.
Tech tree will still have to be reconnected though

3.
(a) How about raising the cost to a hundred or so? Make their "masters" much more circumspect about throwing them away unless they happen to be evil commies or something.

Reduce the movement to 2 as well - same as dips.

(b) Can't be done without changing the units role ie: its no longer a spy/diplo.

Wrt howitzers - how about boosting the attack a couple of points and then dropping the "walls" flag? Or the other way around - reduce its attack strength a couple of points.
Though this would make the infamous mountain cities basically invincible without reducing the terrain defensive bonus a bit ... ... actually I probably don't really want to bring that up again do I?

War4ever · July 2, 2002, 00:23

ravagon, i like your ideas..always have.....but howies only need MP reduced to 1 and then you can effectively attack them before they have a chance...aside from the instant fort...but you should have a big enough strike force to counter that

rah · July 2, 2002, 21:50

I don't mind howies moving 2, since it make you reassess your rail network later in the game

RAH

markusf · July 2, 2002, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
ravagon, i like your ideas..always have.....but howies only need MP reduced to 1 and then you can effectively attack them before they have a chance...aside from the instant fort...but you should have a big enough strike force to counter that

there is no counter to howies, they are just to strong, they dumbed down missles in the patch but not howies?

War4ever · July 2, 2002, 23:27

nah spies are stronger...and come much earlier.

Frank Johnson · July 3, 2002, 02:23

The problem with the spy is they have so many features.....some of which me might like to ban or see changed, while others are perfectly legitimate.

Most gamers have already desided what they "don't" want to see in their games, things like city bribe are banned in most games of substance.

But when looking at this we must consider that the modern era "game balance" tilts toward attack, not defense. Spies lend themselves to that trend. If you are going to edit spies, why not artillery, howies, and everything else in the modern era. Do you want a 50/50 style modern era, or a heavily defensive era like right into gunpower where only 1 move cannons have a shot at taking a city?

Eliminating spies wont change the fact that holding your ground defensively becomes much harder in the modern era......

War4ever · July 3, 2002, 13:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Johnson

Eliminating spies wont change the fact that holding your ground defensively becomes much harder in the modern era......

i don't disagree with the fact that holding cities in the modern era is alot harder.....

But drop and roll howies which ignore city walls can be toned down by just allowing the drop and not the roll every turn.....

Spies, eliminate the nuke and poison water and i could live with that toning down aspect.....or even better just keep them as dips.....one tech, one improvement etc....

rah · July 3, 2002, 14:09

Yeah, I'm leaning to keeping them dips if you can make sure they still abide by the one city one tech rule.

War4ever · July 3, 2002, 14:11

well why don't we just let people know that espionage is a tech that no one is allowed to research...then effectively we have dips....

Ming · July 3, 2002, 14:25

Quote:

Originally posted by War4ever
well why don't we just let people know that espionage is a tech that no one is allowed to research...then effectively we have dips....

DOH... It sounds easy enough. NO modification of rules files needed. The only problem I can see is if at some point on the Tech Tree, Espy is the ONLY choice you are given.

I'd say add it to Rah Rules...

drake · July 3, 2002, 15:31

Or jeez how about this, research the tech all you want, just disallow the use of a unit for certain purposes, just as city bribe is typically disallowed.

War4ever · July 3, 2002, 15:42

that has already been mentioned Drake.... it is a dead end tech after all

drake · July 3, 2002, 15:47

Ah yes, I forgot that most people have the tech tree memorized around here

I know how to get to monarchy, republic and philosophy...after that I usually wing it. Knowing the course I will take every game just doesn't appeal to me.

War4ever · July 3, 2002, 15:57

lol i don't know the whole tech tree.....but i have played enough to remember that espionage is a dead ender....just like theology