American position on the PA - Page 8

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:18

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Good. That takes care of your points 8, 9 and 11. There is no moral requirement to call off an attack because Israel has decided to put some kids there. Sharon is guilty of the deaths of these children

Not at all so.

They entered a house. Then they initiated an attack on one person whom they noticed after the next.

Every person killed is a seperate attack.

It's not the same as planting a bomb.

Eli · June 28, 2002, 05:19

People like CyberGnu are the source of the ME conflict.

"We are the right side, therefore we can kill/expel EVERYONE on the wrong side"

Luckily, Israel is a democracy so similar Israeli idiots are on the fringe of society. In Palestine, such people lead the Pals, fight for them, manage their money and educate the next generation.

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:20

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we assume that the palestinian knew it was indeed a kids dormitory

if they enter the dormitory in a school (!) and see kids (!) asleep.

How is this then "accidental" killing?

You said that only accidental killing is the occupiers fault.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:20

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Means 'based on my impressions'. Not a statement of fact. Not a claim.

Could this be the cause of your confusion regarding sources? You really don't understand when they are needed?

Well if you don't have a source, don't post it then.

You require the same from me.

*sigh*

*again banging forehead on Siros wall of incomprehension*

For the love of Buddha, at least try to engage your poor tired braincells.

I'll go through the original post slowly.

However, does anyone know at what age you are considered adult in palestine? Since they themselves apparently consider 15 year olds grown men, I assume they consider israeli 15 year olds adults as well.

does anyone know at what age you are considered adult in palestine? Firmly establishing that I don't know for a fact when a palestinian is considered adult.

Logic: If I don't know the answer, I don't have a source.

Since they themselves apparently consider 15 year olds grown men
Key word here is 'apparently'. Establishes that I'm not claiming my statement as a fact, only as an impression I have.

I assume they consider israeli 15 year olds adults as well.
Keyword: 'assume'. Again stating that I don't know this as a fact, only that I'm making an assumption.

Of course, ordinarily I wouldn't dream of being so condescending that I'd assume that one would not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion, but if you still don't get it, I'll make an exception for you.

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:21

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People like CyberGnu are the source of the ME conflict.

"We are the right side, therefore we can kill/expel EVERYONE on the wrong side"

Luckily, Israel is a democracy so similar Israeli idiots are on the fringe of society. In Palestine, such people lead the Pals, fight for them, manage their money and educate the next generation.

But gnu is a democrat.

He's in favour of kids taking responsability for the military actions of their state

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:22

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How could we have invaded palestine if there has never been a palestine, as you have stated yourself?

Contemplating Israels crimes hurts again, so you prefer being facetious?

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:25

good, that was my point.

So Gnu, aren't you a little ashamed of posting unbased unsourced opinions?

Kinda like the Israeli press, don't you think?

From now on, I deem you can't be trusted.

See you around.

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:30

You say things like:

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You are claiming that Israeli soldiers must occpuy palestine

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You are defending a nation that has invaded another

But you also say:

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Which might have some relevance if there had ever been a palestinian state.

Aren't you a little confused?

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:31

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why not?

was he not enjoying palestinian land?

I don't really want to insult you, but I have to ask: Are you stupid or is it just that you have the memory of a goldfish?

I'll give you a few hints: posted at 28-06-2002 03:00 As I've said before, you can't deliberately kill the kid.

posted at: 28-06-2002 02:14 I don't defend the practice of targeting children.

Need more help?

Sirotnikov · June 28, 2002, 05:32

This is your logic:

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As I've said before, you can't deliberately kill the kid.

If the kid is killed by accident, however, the guilt falls squarely on my shoulders.

Please explain to me, how the murder of children in examples 8,9 and 11 , is

a) NOT"deliberate"
b) a mistake

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:34

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It all comes from my memory of the events in the last 2 years.

You are welcome to search the forum if you want my sources then.

I distinctly remembered to only put things on the list which were 'real' according to your definition (ie covered by western meda)

Well, source them then? You are making the claim that palestinians deliberately target children. So far you've provided one example (which I'll accept because I remember readin about it, although if we want to be strict there should be a source on that one too. It's up to you if you want to, I don't require it on that one). One example doesn't prove anything.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:36

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3 refers to an incident where their heads were smashed with rocks.

4 refers to an incident which hapenned in a lit sport field in school. It hapenned at night, but the court was lit.

Source.

And I'd like the question of adulthood resolved.

If a 15 year old is considered adult, and these teens were 15+, then the points are moot.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:37

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One could determine their ages were teens.

I can't tell a 16 year odl from a 18 year old...

also refer back to adult age question.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:38

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When a person boards a bus specifically at time when children travel to school, then there's intention in it.

And so you require the resistance fighters to alter their schedule because Israel decides to put children in harms way. Again you are defending the practice of using children as human shields.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:39

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If they are not sourced then the article writer is the actual source and wittness.

Intriguingly... The majority of JP writers are palestinans or IDF soldiers?

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:40

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a)Which story would that be? I specifically remember you already mentioning this in another thread, in which some poster iirc even said he has seen a similar story.

About 40 Al-Quida members being based in palestine to provide training to the PA.

Eli · June 28, 2002, 05:41

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Originally posted by CyberGnu

And so you require the resistance fighters to alter their schedule because Israel decides to put children in harms way. Again you are defending the practice of using children as human shields.

Sending children to school on a bus is "putting them in harms way"? You're sick, very sick.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:42

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well, the Palestinains promoting hatered in school is expected to be on the first page of every news media in the world. but it isn't. It rarely appears on back pages, which shows intentional down-playing.

That's because it isn't news. I'd say everyone here knows palestinian text books say quite unflattering things about the nation that occupies them.

Unlike you, though, we don't find it particularly suprising that a nation that is oppressed by another hates their oppressor....

End the occupation and it would be news.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:43

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you chose to ignore questioning the humanity of those who take cover behind children. at least when they are palestinains.

So they are men who have become brutal because of the occupation. and this is suprising why? You choose to ignore the reason they are brutal...

Eli · June 28, 2002, 05:44

Once source, only because I had nothing better to do.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...183407,00.html

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:45

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G. Tactics - Gnu is a biggotted troll. You should have noticed it.

Ahh, back to 'I can either consider what horrors I am defending, or I can insult someone who tries to force me to think about it. Insult away'.

I understand. I'm sure it would be intensly painful for you to contemplate what Israel is doing.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:47

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Israeli newspapers publish retractions too.

What's the point?

Find me the die welt retraction then.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:48

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They have every moral right.

Every person has a moral right to defend himself. Isn't that one of your basic pillars?

But Israel is not defending itself. It is occupying palestine. It is the agressor.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:50

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To me it appears you have a mental block, understanding the difference between soldiers and civilians, grownups and children, attacker and defender and so on.

so it's not me with the mental problems here.

I have no trouble understanding the difference between them. And it is precisely because I understand the difference between a defender and an aggressor I oppose Israels atrocities.

So we are back to the original question: Does it hurt?

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:52

[quote]You could have watched it on CNN some month or two ago.

Or you could have followed the threads here.

The fact that you have no idea about this specific terrorist act, makes me even more sure that your words are based on general prejudices with little knowledge as to specific events on the field.
[quote]

So source it. Quit whining and just source it.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:54

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But he entered a room and saw a child and then killed it.

I don't see this as falling under the "killed child on accident" category underwhich it falls on the shoulders of the occupiers.

Wasn't he under fire when this happened? I'd say that a person under fire is not capable of acting 100% rationally.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:55

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Your logic is again false, since the attacks (terrorist attacks) from the territories, and other arab countries existed before the occupation of 1967.

They also existed before 1947.

1929 being the most famous example of local arab massacres of innocent jews.

The real reason for terror is that arabs do not want jews to be their neighbours.

In 1929 jews only settled on land bought, or on unoccupied land in mandatorial palestine.

This continued until 1948.

The terror and resistance started there, due to the arab's unwillingness to accept new neighbours.

Their claim that the jews were stealing their lands, is the same as racist white americans have over the hispanic immigrants stealing US land.

This is bull and you know it.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:57

Eli:

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People like CyberGnu are the source of the ME conflict.

Yes, I'm secretly controlling the IDF and force them to kill palestinians.

Your self-delusion is admirable. Just a question, since your grasp on reality is so thin, why don't you try imagine yourself surrounded with naked women or something? Would make more sense to create an illusion that is pleasurable, one would think. Of course, your fantasies might be psychotic in nature, and thus out of your control.... I hope your parents keep sharp objeccts away from you.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 05:59

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if they enter the dormitory in a school (!) and see kids (!) asleep.

How is this then "accidental" killing?

You said that only accidental killing is the occupiers fault.

boys and girls, should we sing the old campsong again?

1

2

1 2 3 4

source-source-source-wonderful source-source-source-source. Source source source, wonderful source, wonderful source! Wonderful source, wonderful source source source.

CyberGnu · June 28, 2002, 06:00

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But gnu is a democrat.

He's in favour of kids taking responsability for the military actions of their state

Back to the goldfish stage, I see.