Civilization Specific Terrain Bonuses

Dimorier Maximus · June 26, 2002, 23:53

Sorry if someone else has already talked about this, but I can't be bothered to read everything posted on this site (it's friggin' HUGE!). This is just an idea I had that might spice the game up a bit more, and as with all civ specific abilities, could be easily turned off if you thought it was a bad idea.

The Idea: Give each civilization a +1 or +2 bonus for a certain terrain(s) type. (I think +2 would work better myself...because of the Inca which I am getting to...) We all know that some civilizations have faired better on certain terrains than others. Take the Egyptians for example. Their benefit could be deserts +2 food. Since the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain, why not give them a bonus on plains +1 food? Then you could give them a +1 production on the coast squares or something because they were good at exploiting the ocean for exploring. The Incans were known for their great ability to farm in the mountains. So I propose a +1 food for mountain squares, and a +1 food for hill squares for them (This is why I want a +2 for each civ...+1 on just mountains would be a weak bonus for the Incans). And I could go on all night with every civilization. But I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

I also think it would be good if the Egyptians were almost always started on or near some deserts in Random start games. Likewise the Incans would be started near mountains/hills. The Spaniards would get started by plains or coast, etc.

These are all just some random thoughts off the top of my head, but I like the idea in general.

I hope Firaxis has time to add it by December.

Andreiguy · June 27, 2002, 00:08

this sounds like an interesting idea, but i feel apprehensive abt the "egyptians on desert, spainards on plains thing" ... we're trying to rewrite history, not replay it, however this would be awesome if used in certain situations (scenarios, etc.)
Otherwise, the bonuses sound interesting, but everything needs to be carefully balanced so as to not disrupt the game, it would be hugely difficult to try to balance different terr. bonuses for each civ.
but then again, you could always make a mod!

Dimorier Maximus · June 27, 2002, 00:15

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Originally posted by Andreiguy
this sounds like an interesting idea, but i feel apprehensive abt the "egyptians on desert, spainards on plains thing" ... we're trying to rewrite history, not replay it, however this would be awesome if used in certain situations (scenarios, etc.)

I don't see how these bonuses would be replaying history...especially on random maps?

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Otherwise, the bonuses sound interesting, but everything needs to be carefully balanced so as to not disrupt the game, it would be hugely difficult to try to balance different terr. bonuses for each civ.
but then again, you could always make a mod!

I wouldn't mind making a mod...if I had the resources, but the current editor just doesn't allow for things like this. And like I said, if you don't like them, you would be able to turn them off like all the other civ specific things. And heck, it wouldn't be too hard to balance...what is the Hoplite compared to the American F-15? Do you call that balance?

alva · June 27, 2002, 00:33

Arn't they gonna do something like this in PTW?
Allthough slightly different. IIRC it had something to do with defensive bonuses.
hmm, come to think of it, it could very well just have been on their wishlist

Andreiguy · June 27, 2002, 11:16

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I don't see how these bonuses would be replaying history...especially on random maps?

This would basically be forcing you to start in a certain way if you choose a certain civ, and just for one feature that turns off, I think that Firaxis wouldn't do it.

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I wouldn't mind making a mod...if I had the resources, but the current editor just doesn't allow for things like this. And like I said, if you don't like them, you would be able to turn them off like all the other civ specific things. And heck, it wouldn't be too hard to balance...what is the Hoplite compared to the American F-15? Do you call that balance?

You can't compare terrain bonuses to UU's. The Hoplite and the F-15 respectively give benefits in their respective eras, and they are balanced. But that's beside the point. I just don't think that this would be something included in a Civ game, because it forces you down a certain path, something that limits replayability.

Dimorier Maximus · June 27, 2002, 15:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Andreiguy
This would basically be forcing you to start in a certain way if you choose a certain civ, and just for one feature that turns off, I think that Firaxis wouldn't do it.

Kinda like you're forced to get iron if you want to make swordsmen? To bad you can't turn that feature off. Of course, you could make all units require no resources. Civ specific terrain bonuses just make the game more strategic like the resources. Imagine a thriving Egyptian desert city....when you take it with the Vikings, it sucks, because it starves to death under your rule since you don't get +2 food on desert terrain. Or maybe a thriving Viking city up in the Tundra...well, if Egypt took it over, it would suck.

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You can't compare terrain bonuses to UU's. The Hoplite and the F-15 respectively give benefits in their respective eras, and they are balanced. But that's beside the point. I just don't think that this would be something included in a Civ game, because it forces you down a certain path, something that limits replayability.

It doesn't limit replayability more than anything else in the game. And you would want to try out all the civs because of their different bonuses. Plus, it would be unbalanced on certain maps...and that is kinda the whole point of it. If you are Egypt, for a challenge, choose wet. If you are Egypt, and you want it easier, choose arid. Get my point? You can sorta choose the difficulty you want if you customize. Or you can go full random and surprise yourself. This feature would be freaking easy for the programmers to add to the game as well.

Panag · June 27, 2002, 17:18

hi ,

some of the ideas can allready be put in the game true the editor , ....

try it out , ....

have a nice day

Purple · June 27, 2002, 17:48

Don't we already have the option to randomize some civ characteristics? Or am I thinking of SMAC? The point is: it probably wouldn't be that hard to make it optional.

Good idea, Max!

XarXo · June 28, 2002, 10:10

Desert is desert, if you're egyptian desert doesn't turns mysteriously in plains, sorry.

Dimorier Maximus · June 28, 2002, 19:41

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

some of the ideas can allready be put in the game true the editor , ....

try it out , ....

have a nice day

Really? What do you mean? Can I make the Egyptians get +2 food from a desert while everyone else gets no food? If so, please tell me how to do this.

Dimorier Maximus · June 28, 2002, 19:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Purple
Don't we already have the option to randomize some civ characteristics? Or am I thinking of SMAC? The point is: it probably wouldn't be that hard to make it optional.

Good idea, Max!

I think you are thinking of SMAC, and thanks for agreeing with me.

Dimorier Maximus · June 28, 2002, 19:45

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Originally posted by XarXo
Desert is desert, if you're egyptian desert doesn't turns mysteriously in plains, sorry.

You are right, desert is desert, mountains are mountains, hills are hills, but how many civilizations do you know of that farmed mountains? I can think of one off hand. The Incas. Not that we couldn't farm mountains today, but it was a unique skill back in the day.

Panag · June 29, 2002, 12:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus
Really? What do you mean? Can I make the Egyptians get +2 food from a desert while everyone else gets no food? If so, please tell me how to do this.

hi ,

, what you can do is let them start with a certain government or tech , ...

or you can let them start on a couple "flood plains" with some "wheat" on it , ....

have a nice day

GeneralTacticus · June 30, 2002, 22:18

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You are right, desert is desert, mountains are mountains, hills are hills, but how many civilizations do you know of that farmed mountains? I can think of one off hand. The Incas. Not that we couldn't farm mountains today, but it was a unique skill back in the day.

Well, no one else NEEDED to farm mountains, they had flat land to farm instead. Also, about the Egyptian desert idea, the Egyptians didn't ge their food from the desert. They got it from the the Flood Plains along the Nile.

Dimorier Maximus · June 30, 2002, 22:42

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Well, no one else NEEDED to farm mountains, they had flat land to farm instead.

Yes, but if I start near mountains and hills, and I am the Incas, then I would like to be able to plop a decent city, you know what I mean? Not every successful civilization has had their cities on the plains and grasslands and river beds...the Incas are such an example. The Mongols are such an example.

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Also, about the Egyptian desert idea, the Egyptians didn't ge their food from the desert. They got it from the the Flood Plains along the Nile.

That is very true. Maybe the Egyptians would be better suited by +1 shield and +1 food on Flood Plain terrain.

Dimorier Maximus · June 30, 2002, 22:47

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

, what you can do is let them start with a certain government or tech , ...

or you can let them start on a couple "flood plains" with some "wheat" on it , ....

have a nice day

hi,

The problem with the first suggestion is that it has nothing to do with terrain. The problem with the second suggestion is that I don't know how to put a CERTAIN civ in a CERTAIN spot on the map, plus...the effects would only be for that first city in that region anyways...

have a nice day

GeneralTacticus · June 30, 2002, 22:55

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Yes, but if I start near mountains and hills, and I am the Incas, then I would like to be able to plop a decent city, you know what I mean? Not every successful civilization has had their cities on the plains and grasslands and river beds...the Incas are such an example.

True. However, it might be better to have a 'mountain farming' tech or something, which would allow you to get extra food from mountains.

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The Mongols are such an example.

The Mongols were hardly what could be called a Civ, at least until they went on their conquering spree. They were not settled people and did no farming. They got their food from their herds of domesticated animals.

Dimorier Maximus · July 1, 2002, 01:42

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Originally posted by GeneralTacticus True. However, it might be better to have a 'mountain farming' tech or something, which would allow you to get extra food from mountains.

So would the Incas start with this technology? That is actually a good idea, but I'm still liking the terrain bonuses.

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The Mongols were hardly what could be called a Civ, at least until they went on their conquering spree. They were not settled people and did no farming. They got their food from their herds of domesticated animals.

They proved that their were other ways to be successful besides farming, which is another reason why I think their should be unique terrain bonuses.

Panag · July 1, 2002, 10:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus
hi,

The problem with the first suggestion is that it has nothing to do with terrain. The problem with the second suggestion is that I don't know how to put a CERTAIN civ in a CERTAIN spot on the map, plus...the effects would only be for that first city in that region anyways...

have a nice day

hi ,

okay , two options then , wait for the new editor , or check with Gramphos , in the help forum , ...

have a nice day

Adagio · July 1, 2002, 11:46

I defently like this idea

And if it's optional, then I don't see any problem in it, I guess it wont be a big problem to make it...

How about starting a list with the different special bonuses for the different civs

Here's what we have got so far:

Egypt: +2 food on dessert (Or should it be on floodplain instead?)
Viking: +1 food on tundra (Maybe +1 food on forrest on tundra?)
Inca: +1 food on mountain, +1 food on hills

Panag · July 1, 2002, 14:49

Quote:

Originally posted by ADG
I defently like this idea

And if it's optional, then I don't see any problem in it, I guess it wont be a big problem to make it...

How about starting a list with the different special bonuses for the different civs

Here's what we have got so far:

Egypt: +2 food on dessert (Or should it be on floodplain instead?)
Viking: +1 food on tundra (Maybe +1 food on forrest on tundra?)
Inca: +1 food on mountain, +1 food on hills

hi ,

,

, this could be something for more "civ specific abilities" , ....

have a nice day

GeneralTacticus · July 1, 2002, 19:56

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So would the Incas start with this technology? That is actually a good idea, but I'm still liking the terrain bonuses.

My point was that the bonus be available to anyone who really needs it, not just the Incas. After all, just about anyone who really had to could have done the same.

EDIT: btw, I'm not really against the idea of terrain bonuses, I just think that they should come with techs rather than being Civ-specific.

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They proved that their were other ways to be successful besides farming, which is another reason why I think their should be unique terrain bonuses.

You are probably right, but it would be damn hard to represent the actual Mongol way of life in Civ, considering that it centers around cities and stuff. The Mongols didn't have cities.

mwaf · July 2, 2002, 06:11

I agree with Andreiguy. We're trying to rewrite history, not replay it. Civ-specific terrain bonuses wouldn't be such a good idea in a non-scenario game, i.e. random maps.

Who says the Egyptians has to start near desert and floodplains? What if they (on a random map) start in the middle of a mountain range? What use would they have of their floodplain skills?

However, I don't think the idea of specific skills, is bad, at all. I just don't think they should be hard coded to a specific civ. Instead, perhaps they should be starting-location dependet. For instance, if your starting location provides you with nothing more than mountains and hills, you would after a while master the skill of farming mountains (just as the Incas had to in order to survive).

So according to my suggestion civ specific skills would neither be specified before the map in generated nor be an advance (like GeneralTacticus suggested), instead, it would be a skill compared to farming and road making.

Panag · July 2, 2002, 14:33

hi ,

it shall be a lot easier when the placement tool comes with the new editor , ....

this way you can put this and that civ here or there , where you have put before hand wheat , or cattle , ....
no matter the terrain type , ...

have a nice day

Adagio · July 2, 2002, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by mwaf
I agree with Andreiguy. We're trying to rewrite history, not replay it. Civ-specific terrain bonuses wouldn't be such a good idea in a non-scenario game, i.e. random maps.

Well, it wouldn't be that hard to make an on/off button, for those who don't want to play with it...

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
it shall be a lot easier when the placement tool comes with the new editor , ....

this way you can put this and that civ here or there , where you have put before hand wheat , or cattle , ....
no matter the terrain type , ...

Well...that's not the same...

Purple · July 2, 2002, 19:16

Maybe the Mongols could have an advantage in terms of movement, say, double movement on unroaded plains tiles.

Panag · July 3, 2002, 13:44

hi ,

, there is a kind of government bonus in now , ....
maybe with the arrival of new governments there are new things to do with the terrain , ...

example , socialism-communism should get one food less , one shield more , ....

have a nice day