Seeking advice

UnOrthOdOx · June 27, 2002, 13:01

Here is the set up.

Started the game, Monarch, all Random, standard size.

I got Zulu, and had Babylon to the north. A quick archer strike took their capital and forced them to the very north of our continent. (Map ended up continents, max water) No one to the south and I settle there. Iron working reveals that Babylon is on the only site for this Island, I can see several coasts just off to the north and west, so I figure I can meet new civs on those continents and destroy Babylon for the Iron.

The coasts turn out to be small islands, which I colonize all but one, it was three squares of Tundra and no fishes or whales in the see, why keep it?

Eventually I meet England via a pasing Man-o-War. I am far behind in tech by this time due to no partners. I eventually get contact with everyone else and start buying tech. I also discovered that I have a monopoly on incense and furs which helps cash flow. By the time I get Navigation, I discover that I lack salt peter, and can not get anyone to trade for it. I have the largest land mass, but no salt peter...

Anyway, EVERYONE declares war on Germany and I stay out of the whole mess, just trading and teching my way up. I spend this time building universities and changing to Democracy. By the end of the war, I am not only caught up, but have a SLIGHT lead. (MAYBE one tech, more like a half) Now, England and France share a large continent, and are maintaining a MPP. China and India are to the south on two small islands. England also colonized that tiny icberg island that just happened to have oil...I have oil and Rubber now and am modernizing my army. France beat me by one turn to Universal Sufferage, and I am likely not going to get Hoover Dam, either.

France is now HUGE and will pass me up once all their conquered cities are developed. England is also somewhat of a threat. China and India are way behind and do not concern me.

I am planning an attack on Paris to capture Universal Sufferage as it is within striking distance of a well placed beach landing and need suggestions on how to keep it from flipping. Should I just raze it and lose the wonder? I am not used to being in this position, really. Just usually raze cities by this time. Or should I just take out China and India, easier battle, but could provoke France and England against me with my forces not near either of them.

Either way, I am hoping for a short war and then negotiate peace so that I can remain a Democracy. Also, currently my Palace and FP are ideally situated for my coninent and Islands, is it worth it to move the palace to the new land and possibly lose some production back home? The new continent is larger and could become better in time.

Zardos · June 27, 2002, 13:45

I think this is a tough call, but I would attack France and try to keep Paris. You will be able to hold the city if you put enough military units in it and starve it a bit. England will probably go to war with you, and the problem is that will probably stay at war with you for a while (in my experience at least), since you are not planning on attacking England to "urge" them to peace. Try to get China and India to go to war with France too, but if you do sign a Military alliance, you need to keep it for twenty turns. So, you'll probably want to switch to communism. Once the twenty turns are up, declare peace.

If you don't attack France, but attack China and India instead, you'll be engaged in a war, while France and England are happy teching away. If you go to war with France, they'll be too focused on their military to get too much ahead.

My .02 cents.

Zardos

UnOrthOdOx · June 27, 2002, 14:00

Is there a rule as to how many units are needed?

Also, what are the chances that if I signed an MPP with England, they would turn of France? Forcing them to choose.

India is useless, they have been nearly destroyed by China, only three cities left. China has some cavalry and could be of some help, but AI does not usually get their units across the sea well.

I will gain tanks in approx 5 turns, but do not know how far behind me France is.

Zardos · June 27, 2002, 14:26

I don't know the exact formula for causing a city not to flip based on unit occupation (setting up a test for this would be difficult at best), but for a large city, you would probably need quite a few...

I believe the way that MPPs are set up are if YOU are attacked the MPP goes in to effect; however, if you attack, it does not until they attack your forces (not exactly sure though).

I would still get China on your side, because it is one less civ that might go against you when the going gets tough.

As for waiting until you get tanks -- that's a little bit of a gamble. If you wait, France might get tanks and you'll have a tough time defending against tanks on foreign soil. Furthermore, it might take you some time to get enough tanks to mount an assault. However, if you act immediately, you don't have tanks, but you might stem France's research enough to delay them getting tanks. You have to figure, though, that France is going straight for Motorized Transport and they'll have tanks shortly -- so bring LOTS of defenders.

Zardos

jshelr · June 27, 2002, 15:39

Sounds like you need a better reason to attack France or you need to do more than take the one city if you want to cut them down to size.

What would happen if you asked England for a MPP and then checked every turn to see if they drop the MPP with France before you attack France? Might not happen, but it could help.

Arrian · June 27, 2002, 15:44

It depends on a number of factors.

What is the ratio of your culture to the French (use the graph. Are you equal? Is yours higher? Lower? Double? Half?).

IIRC, here's how it works:

Assuming culture is even, each french citizen requires 1 unit to negate (resistors require 2) their "flip factor." In addition, each tile of territory which would fall within Paris' full 21-tile radius that is within France's cultural borders also requires a unit. French culture points IN PARIS (not overall, that's a separate factor) will be higher than your own for a good long while, and that will double the effects of their citizens/tiles. There is also a capitol proximity modifier... and theirs is gonna be close to Paris than Zimbabwe.

The keys to keeping Paris are therefore: pushing back France's cultural borders by razing surrounding cities, starving Paris down to size 1 and growing it back up with your own people, and keeping a lot of units in the city.

I would strongly suggest putting only a token defender in the city for a little while after capturing it, while holding a strong force outside. It will most likely flip and you can take it right back. Meanwhile, starve it as fast as you can, rush a temple/library, and destroy those surrounding cities.

-Arrian

Arrian · June 27, 2002, 15:48

What you might want to do is bring a settler along with your invasion force and build a base near Paris. This, built with your own people and containing no French culture, is unlikely to flip to France. It's your safe haven, and a much better base of operations for a major invasion than Paris would be. If you have old non-upgradeable units lying around (swordsmen?), bring them over to use as garrison units in Paris (obviously you will need some top-of-the-line defenders, but you can get the numbers up with obselete units).

-Arrian

UnOrthOdOx · June 27, 2002, 16:23

Quote:

What is the ratio of your culture to the French (use the graph. Are you equal? Is yours higher? Lower? Double? Half?).

I have a SLIGHT lead in culture at the moment, but not for long as they develope those cities.

Quote:

The keys to keeping Paris are therefore: pushing back France's cultural borders by razing surrounding cities, starving Paris down to size 1 and growing it back up with your own people, and keeping a lot of units in the city.

The major problem I have is that I still have no Salt peter (no point in cavalry at the moment, so it is infantry right now. I have 5 transports of infantry/arty sitting off the shore, 4 battleships, and another 5 transports waiting for tanks back home.

Quote:

What you might want to do is bring a settler along with your invasion force and build a base near Paris.

I have a few in my transports, I think this will be the way to go up north in one of the gaps between their cities, then rush an airport in a few turns and see what happens. Looking closer, if I can get China on my side and take that iceberg island from England, I can cut off France's oil in a precision attack from my little base city (or at the least bombard the road). Then it won't really matter much what techs they get.

Thanks everyone, not used to being without cavalry for an entire game. Really had to change my normal style.

I have a perfect reputation for the first time too...perhaps I should just go for a diplo win. Not really my style, but...

Oh, I forgot to mention Russia, they are to the east of where Germany was, only have about 10 cities and lack horses, rubber, and oil (or rather are trading for them, I think from england, they asked me earlier), but also have a MPP with France.

Txurce · June 29, 2002, 16:06

Are you interested in winning via the space race? If so, sit tight, build 10-15 tanks and lots of artillery to defend your cities with your rail system, and just about bet the farm that even if France pulls ahead technologically, you will beat it to space.

Blitzer · June 30, 2002, 15:14

Sounds like a Space Race to me.... but then again it's always nice to be sure.

Your lack of saltpeper isn't a hinderance in the least. You are past the age of cavalry dominance anyway. Research through to flight as soon as you can. Do you haev Armies? I assume not, does not sound like you made a leader... unfortunate, it makes it so much harder.

The invasion Force: 23 infantry, 1 settler, 7 artillery, 4 transports. This will be a one-way trip, so don't worry about your navy. Land in french territory the turn before you discover tanks, and weather the assault. Your infantry with bombardment support should be enough to hold off the attack. Raze the city, and build a new one on top of your used artillery (or on top of the razed city if you landed on a mountain). Try to pick a site where the French don't have a huge culture pocket, since you want to actually be able to build said city.

Rush an airport and lift in your reserve infantry. Switch production of your major cities to tanks and start the assault. Not getting hoover dam sucks. I don't know what your production capability is, but clearly you want this wonder if you can get it. Roll to victory of your choice.

UnOrthOdOx · July 1, 2002, 10:40

Heh, yeah, it did turn into a space race, but all plans were thrown out the window the next turn. I did land that force and build a city in the little holes left by France's overthrow of Germany. China, however, declared war on me, and I sent four more transports their direction. France also declared war on England, and got Russia's assistance. China eliminated India the turn my armies arrived, and I took a city defended by a spearmen, then wtarted shipping tanks over there as fast as I could befor rushing an airport. China was still using Riders, and that island was soon mine.

I supplied England with oil and rubber to make that war into a stalemate, then began to advance on France. I was actually still in Democracy and had not even seen any WW as of yet. I FINALLY got my second leader of the game (first made FP soooo long ago) and made an army, and made Heroic Epic. WW started to set in, and I made peace with France and China (who only had one city left on a tiny island). Now pushing my research, I got to fission and built manhatten project to initiate my Golden Age (Babylon way back when never attacked any of my impi...) I made those techs as if everyone else was standing still. France never researched another tech, they bought some off Russia, however. England was eliminated, and so was China, both by France. I had my MA rolling through France after they sneak attacked a worker of mine when I hit launch. NO ONE would vote in the elections, all abstained but me and Joan. Kinda odd, everyone was Gracious to me before China declared war for no apparant reason. Well, a win is a win, I guess.

Yeah, Salt Peter just slowed me WAY down. I would have liked to expand off my island earlier.