80 years war scenario

[tigger]

Hi guys....it must be a couple of months since I last posted. Things have changed. I have some grey hairs, a new job and a PS2....not necessarily in that order of preference.

I've finally returned to the PC to complete the map editing needed for my new scenario. Its going to be based on the Dutch War of independence. Now the maps finally done I was just posting a heads up for any events or units you guys think'll be useful?

I'm delving into my history books for the next few days and will post again when I've got my events and unit ideas together. I would appreciate the opportunity to bounce ideas around if anyone is interested....

....oh and lets face it, it wouldn't be a tigger post without the usual request for SLIC help once I've planned everything

Ta

Tigs

[Locutus]

Cool. You know you can count on me as usual, at least as much as possible. I'm having some major PC problems right now and a lot of unfinished study projects and other administrative crap... not very interesting but very, very time-consuming...

[arktiem]

Tigger:
All Right!!! I am so glad to see your back and in the full creation swing. If I can help in some way, let me know and I'd be happy to do so.

Locutus:
Sorry to hear that you're having major PC difficulties... just got over some major ones recently myself so I can understand. Hope you get it fixed soon (and can breeze through those projects and such quck and painless... one can only hope, right?

Arktiem

[Locutus]

Thans, arktiem. But I may have found a better solution than fixing that stupid old thing... I did some saving and some fund-raising (I always knew parents had to be good for something ) and I can probably afford to buy a new PC fairly soon

Finally I'll be able to play the Alexander the Great scenario properly

[arktiem]

Hey there Locutus!

Originally posted by Locutus
Thans, arktiem. But I may have found a better solution than fixing that stupid old thing... I did some saving and some fund-raising (I always knew parents had to be good for something ) and I can probably afford to buy a new PC fairly soon

Finally I'll be able to play the Alexander the Great scenario properly

Parents sure can be good for some things! That's great news! There are few things finer than getting a new PC... especially with the requirements for the games we love so much (not to mention the hard drive space needed for MODding and such) getting more and more demanding. Good for you and for getting to play Alexander properly!

Arktiem

[tigger]

Good grief guys I spend a few days reading my Dutch history and it turns into a family appreciation society!

Anyway, sorry everyone but I'm only up to 1572. Still I'm ready to kick through a few ideas. Locutus, you've already discussed some of these but I'd appreciate any further thoughts you've got aswell.

1. Dutch Fluyts...better than Spanish galleons? Also the relief of Leyden could be difficult to recreate unless the Fluyt has some sort of amphibious ability. For those that don't know the land was flooded to allow the flat bottomed Geuzen (Locu does this translate as beggars?) ships to get to the Spanish Armies and rout them.

2. Special units good or bad idea? Spanish govenor could reduce likelihood of mutiny of troops, whilst Willem's representatives could make a city more lilkely to revolt (at least in Holland and Zealand - except Amsterdam).

3. Units - 2 Spanish units? 2 Dutch units? - mercenary and Dutch regular troops.

4. How many cities and which ones - I think I need Den Briel, Amsterdam, Middelburg, Groningen, Haarlem, The Hague, Antwerp, Utrecht, Oldenzaal, Alkmaar, Ghent...any oithers guys?

5. What sort of city size?

That's it for now but please post any comments or e-mail me.

[Locutus]

!%@%^!!# Computer crashed so I have to type this all over again. Apologies if I'm a little brief...

Originally posted by tigger
Good grief guys I spend a few days reading my Dutch history and it turns into a family appreciation society!

Anyway, sorry everyone but I'm only up to 1572.

Only Where did you start? For the average Dutch person national history starts around 1550... (Don't worry, I'm not an average Dutch person )

1. Dutch Fluyts...

Fluyts are for some unknown reason very famous ships to foreigners but most Dutch people have never even heard of the damn things. I only heard of them when I started visiting Apolyton and even now I still wouldn't recognize one if I was sailing on it, so I'm really not the right person to ask here... But since Spanish Galleons were kick-@ss ships, I'm guessing they should have the better stats...
As far as Leiden goes, I don't think you want to model stuff in such detail: it's about rewriting history, not replaying it. So you may or may not have a siege of Leiden and you may or may not have a relief, but I don't think you should determine in advance what the exact size and composition of the armies involved is...

Geuzen (Locu does this translate as beggars?)

It doesn't translate.
Well, doesn't... I looked it up: it's a corruption of the French word for beggar. But no Dutch person ever associates the word 'Geus' with the word 'beggar', our French isn't good enough for that It's a name, just like other names, like Felix: sure, we all know that it could be translated, but who the hell calls his cat Happy?

2. Special units good or bad idea?

Sounds good to me...

3. Units - 2 Spanish units? 2 Dutch units? - mercenary and Dutch regular troops.

For land units, sounds okay to me. If you want to, you could even make Mercenary forces cost you gold as well as production (no money? mutiny!).

4. How many cities and which ones - I think I need Den Briel, Amsterdam, Middelburg, Groningen, Haarlem, The Hague, Antwerp, Utrecht, Oldenzaal, Alkmaar, Ghent...any oithers guys?

Oh, there are plenty to choose from, it mainly depends on your mapsize. The biggest ones would be: Leiden, Vlissingen, Brussel, Frisian cities (Leeuwarden, maybe one other, Sneek or so?), Atrecht/Arras. Others that you could use, depending on the available space include: Vere, Rotterdam, Delft, Gouda, Dordrecht, Den Bosch, Maastricht, Amesfoort, Deventer, Zutphen, Kampen, Assen, Coevorden, Arnhem, Doornik/Tournai, Luik/Liege, Namen/Namur, Bergen/Mons, Brugge, Ieper, Luxembourg...

5. What sort of city size?

That's trickier, took me some research. Antwerp was the third largest city in Northern Europe in the 1566 with 90,000 odd inhabitants. Over the decades after that, it (and other Belgian cities) lost many inhabitants (mainly the calvinists and merchants) to the northern cities. In the time period around the scenario Amsterdam grew from 30,000 to 140,000 inhabitants (again, largely due to imported calvinists and merchants), so at the starting date it was 50-60k maybe. Leiden was in the 17th century about 50,000 inhabitants large and Dordrecht, Haarlem and Delft were roughly the same size, while Utrecht was slightly higher (60-70k?). Gouda, Rotterdam, Den Haag and Alkmaar were somewhat smaller, maybe 20-40k. Groningen had about 20,000 inhabitants during this period, Leeuwareden about 10,000. The cities in the southern Netherlands (Maastricht, Bergen, Atrecht, Doornik) were quite small, less than 20,000 inhabitants, some even less than 10,000 (and generally speaking, the further to the south(-east), the smaller).

That's it for now but please post any comments or e-mail me.

Email's not a very good idea right now...

[Locutus]

BTW, forgot to add this: normally 1 pop = 10,000 citizens but since in reality some towns, especially the ones in Southern Belgium, were quite small, you might want to use a different guideline in this case, something like 1 pop = 5,000...

[tigger]

Hey Locu thanks for the reply. Sorry I haven't got much further, work has been tough this week. Will get some stuff done this weekend though.

Only Where did you start? For the average Dutch person national history starts around 1550... (Don't worry, I'm not an average Dutch person )

My Dutch history starts around 1555. Lets face it anyone who hasn't read any Dutch history should, you should be very proud of your nation Wouter.

I was tempted to say the scenario should start 1st April 1572. It is the most interesting start point. But actually I'm beginning to think 1568 might be better. Afterall there were threats of rebellion long before the taking of Den Briel. The player has no cities, only units.

But since Spanish Galleons were kick-@ss ships, I'm guessing they should have the better stats...

As far as Leiden goes, I don't think you want to model stuff in such detail: it's about rewriting history, not replaying it. So you may or may not have a siege of Leiden and you may or may not have a relief, but I don't think you should determine in advance what the exact size and composition of the armies involved is...

Didn't really mean that I wanted to restrict the player to replaying a specific of history. What I meant was the relief of Leiden revealed a brilliant tactic of flooding the land, the Geuzen's ships being flat bottomed were thus able to move close to the Spanish troops. Now I think that ability should be recreated in some way, currently I think the best way of providing this is in effect to make the Dutch Ships amphibious.

Well, doesn't... I looked it up: it's a corruption of the French word for beggar. But no Dutch person ever associates the word 'Geus' with the word 'beggar', our French isn't good enough for that It's a name, just like other names, like Felix: sure, we all know that it could be translated, but who the hell calls his cat Happy?

Fair enough, beggars was the name a book I was reading used. I think cat names is dodgy territory, one of mine was named after a teabag

For land units, sounds okay to me. If you want to, you could even make Mercenary forces cost you gold as well as production (no money? mutiny!).

Mutiny = very good. I want mutinous troops.

Sopecial units? Ok then, will need to think of the people who need recreating. Willem is a given. So is a Spanish govenor (no point specifying Alva because he was replaced.

Oh, there are plenty to choose from, it mainly depends on your mapsize

Yeah i need to make some decisions about how many cities I can have this weekend.

Thanks for the city size stuff.

[Immortal Wombat]

like Felix: sure, we all know that it could be translated, but who the hell calls his cat Happy?

Someone who didn't know Felix translated as Lucky?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by tigger
My Dutch history starts around 1555. Lets face it anyone who hasn't read any Dutch history should, you should be very proud of your nation Wouter.

It's just a history, like everybody elses... I have far more respect for the accomplishments of the Mongols, Chinese, Indians, Ethiopians, etc....

I was tempted to say the scenario should start 1st April 1572. It is the most interesting start point. But actually I'm beginning to think 1568 might be better. Afterall there were threats of rebellion long before the taking of Den Briel. The player has no cities, only units.

Yeah, both dates have their advantages. Either would do I suppose, 1568 *was* the 'official' start of the war...

Didn't really mean that I wanted to restrict the player to replaying a specific of history. What I meant was the relief of Leiden revealed a brilliant tactic of flooding the land, the Geuzen's ships being flat bottomed were thus able to move close to the Spanish troops. Now I think that ability should be recreated in some way, currently I think the best way of providing this is in effect to make the Dutch Ships amphibious.

I guess you have a point there. Would be kind of interesting to have a ship that could travel both (shallow) land *and* shallow water...

Fair enough, beggars was the name a book I was reading used. I think cat names is dodgy territory, one of mine was named after a teabag

Sopecial units? Ok then, will need to think of the people who need recreating. Willem is a given. So is a Spanish govenor (no point specifying Alva because he was replaced.

Yeah, maybe you could have several per civ? Parma, Alva, Spinola, etc for the Spanish and Willem (and maybe his brothers, three of whom died in combat), Maurits, Frederik Hendrik (half-brother of Willem, Stadhouder during last years of the war) and maybe even Oldenbarneveld for the Dutch...

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Someone who didn't know Felix translated as Lucky?

Whatever... same word in Dutch...

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by tigger
Now I think that ability should be recreated in some way, currently I think the best way of providing this is in effect to make the Dutch Ships amphibious.

From an implementation point of view this would probably be easiest to do by stealing the Air MovementType (assuming there are no air units invoolved in the scenario) - make this a water-or-low-land-only movement type by removing the appropriate line from the non-low-land terrains.

[tigger]

From an implementation point of view this would probably be easiest to do by stealing the Air MovementType (assuming there are no air units invoolved in the scenario) - make this a water-or-low-land-only movement type by removing the appropriate line from the non-low-land terrains

Sounds good...I think its fair to say that the number of air units in renaissance Europe was a little restricted. Though Da Vinchi was making some interesting doodles.