Multiplayer Tournament!

[{\S/}Tripa{\S/}]

Hey i will help out with anything needed. i might go play a game soon make sure i can still own the AI oh btw as u prob noticed i dont hang out at apolyton often so if you could do us a favor and once all the tornament stuff is sorted email me. also if u need anything email me. Im gonna leave all my info here so u can contact me for anything.
Email: tripa@newskaven.com
MSN: tripa_skaven@hotmail.com
ICQ: 102152413
I will give u my forums adress as well as that is the mostly checked of all my contacts.
www.newskaven.com/forums

[Cookie Monster]

I'd be interested in playing. The best chance I would have to participate would probably be on the weekends though and then only if the wife and kid let me!

Since it's been a while since I have played I'd probably go for default game no mods. But I am willing to try anything!

[dregman]

i also havn't played the game in a while so don't make it impossible please??

[Wildbore]

OK count me, wildbore in, ill be representing the guardians clan, hopefully not alone cause ill lose.

1) i vote random map
2) defualt patch
3) 3-4 players cause i lose 1 vs 1 easily
4) no nukes and no wonders
5) Difficulty - impossible, barbs - lowest, pollution - on
6) doesen't matter
7) regular map
8) no restarts
9) A poll is needed to decide this option fairly
10) 15 second speed cities
11) doesen't matter to me

Those are the prefences i prefer, hope they help. :P

[Locutus]

Child of Thor,
Too bad you can't play
But thanks for your wisdom on the settings of the touurney...

Solver,
I talked to you on ICQ...

Tripa,
Sounds good Don't worry, I already had your forum address and posted there

dregman,
I think you'll find human opponents to be far stronger than AIs, so I wouldn't be worrying about the AI if I were you Besides, unmodded CtP2's AI is a sissy

Dietrich, Wildbore, fantastic Great to have you both with us. And don't worry, Napoleon told me on ICQ he would probably also play and some other Guardians might as well, so you're not the only one

This brings the total # of player to 11:
1. Maquiladora
2. Oerdin
3. Immortal Wombat
4. Turambar
5. dregman
6. Wittlich
7. Blink Jim
8. Tripa
9. Haupt. Dietrich
10. WIldbore
11. Napoleon

About the rules:
1) I think we pretty much have a concensus here: random map (unless I get strong protest).
2) Consensus here too: patched, unmodded game.
3) 3-4 players in the first round for sure. Later on probably 1-vs-1, but we'll see if others have something to say about this, could still be changed.
4) Hmm, people are not unaminmous here but the tendency seems to be no nukes, no wonders, everything else allowed (we could simply tell people not to pillage terrain that doesn't belong to anyone, unmodded is unmodded). But please do respond if you don't agree with this...
5) Obviously difficulty level should be impossible, aside from dregman I'm fairly certain all would agree on this (let me know if I'm wrong though). Pollution should be on, but I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on Barbarians before making a decision here.
6) There will be 4 settlers, unless people object. How much extra gold and PW should be given? 10,000 Gold and 1000 PW? I have no idea what people generally tend to do, so please let me know what you'd like/usually do...
7) Regular map it is. As for the number of AIs, I tend to bring the total number of players for the first round at 8 (so if there are 3 humans, 5 AIs). The second round, assuming it will be 1-vs-1 I don't know, what do people think? Also 8? Or maybe 5 or 6 (including humans)?
8) There's no concession on restarts, I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on this...
9) This remains open for now, please post your opinions...
10) Again, still open, please post your opinion...
11) I'm tending towards 3-4 players for the first round, where only the winner goes through. 1-vs-1 for the semi-finals and finals (I don't expect there to be quarter finals, that requires a LOT of people ).

Feedback more than welcome!

[Wise Ass]

hmmm...

I wouldn't mind Playing but I am limited on time as I work a lot (I also suck as far as playing the game goes but I could make it interesting for some )

As far as prefs go I am down for whatever

Give me an Idea on times and what not.

P.S. If you wouldn't have posted something on Gamecatcher I prolly would have thought twice about it and just said no but I took this as almost a personal invite

[Maquiladora]

15 second speed cities sounds too short, it could get really tight for time later on. IMO it should be turned off completely, not because im a slow player (although it has been said ) but there might be a few people new to MP and that speed of playing. Not that they can go as slow as normal but theres no need to rush someone into a bad move.

[child of Thor]

Maybe there should be two initial groups divided on experience(or preference). For those who have played alot of MP then setup a faster moving game(speed cities/speed turns on low settings). For those who maybe haven't played MP before or prefer a more relaxed pace(or don't have to worry too much about the cost!), then set lower speed settings. This way you would give more people a chance to enjoy the experience and not just be blasted of the map by aggresive MPers?

[ETB]

This sounds like fun! Please sign me up and I will do my best to show up when the games begin. I assume that anyone who doesn’t show up for a game after the game times are setup and agreed to by the players earns a “loss” for that game?

My thoughts on the rules:
1) Random and extremely diverse maps so each player gets the most similar starting conditions.
3) I would like to see something (like “losers brackets”) where everyone who wants to can continue to play after losing so (at least some of us) can gain more MP experience. You could end up with a tournament winner and a more-accurate ranking of the other players if everyone plays 1 vs. 1, although we probably won’t get to all players playing each other during a single tournament.
4) I guess no nukes and wonders makes sense, but I’ll miss the wonders! I vote for using Martin’s APOL_slics.slc file just to eliminate the game crash from AIs trying pillage on a neutral tile. I assume that us humans will be able to refrain from attempting to pillage on a neutral tile, but I attempted to do just that to an ex-Mayan (because I had already defeated the Mayans ) fortress in my last game. Fortunately, nothing happened but I probably would have crashed the game without Martin’s file! I think that everyone here is quite capable of installing the file.
5) I vote for max Barbarians!
6) 4 settlers sounds good – it’s more than I ever gotten at the start of my SP games! I say that gold and PW should be the same – 10,000 each should allow everyone to get off to a very quick start.
7) I think regular maps will be crowded with 8 civs, how about 6 civs for all games? That would give 4 AIs for each of the 1 vs. 1 games and (of course) fewer AIs for the 3 (or 4) human-player games.
8) I say no restarts! But I have played exactly 0 complete MP games…. However, I think that 4 settlers on a max diverse map should give everyone a fairly equal starting chance. Especially with a 10K gold/PW start. Having said that, I will end up on swamp island for all my games now!

[dregman]

I like the idea of different groups according to experience.
but if there aren't enough people, then so be it!
but still if it is possible then it would be great

[flatlander22]

um...I can't ever seem to even get online to play. I don't know if there is a patch somewhere or something that I have missed. I have a dial-up, and I connect, load ctp2, and press multiplayer, and no servers ever show! any ideas?

[Cookie Monster]

The rules sounds good to me. The only concern I would have is if the time limit per player was less than 45 seconds. I'm still not that efficient at issuing all my commands in MP.

[dregman]

yo flatlander I think you still have the old server.dat file.
ask someone to tell you where you can download it, because I can't remember where I got it from.

[J Bytheway]

You can get sever.dat from the FAQ thread (topped).

[sontusa]

I would like to sign up for the mp game. Let me know.
email me at alsontu@yahoo.com for any questions or comments because I dont check the forums everyday.

Thanks

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
You can get sever.dat from the FAQ thread (topped).

It can be now also be found in the Apolyton Directory. Just edited the according answer of the FAQ to include the additional link.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Sorry for not talking for a few days, I've been extremely busy...

Re: Several groups, according to experience level: sounds good, if noone objects. But IMHO, after the initial round, newbies and vets will have to mix for the semi finals/finals, the tournament can only have one winner. We'd have to find a compromise for the speed settings in this round: earlier on the newbies had a chance to get used to the pace of the game and the vets can have at least some sympathy for the newbies by accepting a somewhat longer-than-usual playtime. Do people agree on this?

Wise Ass,
Would it change anything if I said I have posted a very similar thing on about a dozen other gaming boards as well?

ETB,
3) I guess allowing losers to play on for the final ranking would be nice, assuming the losers would still be interested. See below.

flatlander22,
See Q23 of the FAQ. Now that problem is (hopefully) solved, can I assume you're in for the tournament? (Thanks for editing Martin, asking you to do so has just been removed from my to-do list )

Wise Ass, ETB, flatlander22 and sontusa,
Great to have you guys joining the tourney!

The total list of participants right now:
1. Maquiladora
2. Oerdin
3. Immortal Wombat
4. Turambar
5. dregman
6. Wittlich
7. Blink Jim
8. Tripa
9. Haupt. Dietrich
10. Wildbore
11. Napoleon
12. Wise Ass
13. ETB
14. flatlander22
15. sontusa


With ETB's suggestion of loosers playing on, and assuming 16 participants, the tournament structure could look like as I described below. Feedback welcome. This system asumed that if a good player has a bad day, he might finish second (based on order in which players were defeated or (if that fails) end score) rather than first. Therefore, players who end second are given another chance to prove themselves (in the group games). Players who end 3rd of 4th are either having a *really* bad day (in which case: tough luck) or are simply less good. In the latter (most likely) case, it probably largely depends on factors such as starting position, opponents and other arbitrary factors whether you end 3rd or 4th, so the system doesn't discriminate between players who end 3rd and 4th. With this system, everyone will get to play 4 matches, of which 1 or 2 will be 1-vs-1, the others with 4 players.

Round 1

Game 1
4 Players

Game 2
4 Players

Game 3
4 Players

Game 4
4 Players

Round 2
The winners of round 1 are thrown in one pool and randomly drafted: two will play in game 5, two in game 6; same goes for players who finish second. The players who finished 3rd or 4th are thrown in one big pool and divided over games 7 and 8.

Expert Group - Game 5
Drafted Winner 1
Drafted Winner 2
Drafted Second 1
Drafted Second 2

Expert Group - Game 6
Drafted Winner 3
Drafted Winner 4
Drafted Second 3
Drafted Second 4

Regular Group - Game 7
Drafted Player 1
Drafted Player 2
Drafted Player 3
Drafted Player 4

Regular Group - Game 8
Drafted Player 5
Drafted Player 6
Drafted Player 7
Drafted Player 8

Round 3

Champion Group - Semi Finals
(Game 9) Winner Game 5 vs Second Game 6
(Game 10) Winner Game 6 vs Second Game 5

Expert Group - Game 11
Third Game 5
Third Game 6
Fourth Game 5
Fourth Game 6

Regular Group - Semi Finals
(Game 12) Winner Game 7 vs Second Game 8
(Game 13) Winner Game 8 vs Second Game 7

Novice Group - Game 14
Third Game 7
Third Game 8
Fourth Game 7
Fourth Game 8

Round 4

Champion Group - Final
Winner Game 9 vs Winner Game 10

Champion Group - 3rd Place
Loser Game 9 vs Loser Game 10

Expert Group - Final
Winner Game 11 vs Second Game 11

Expert Group - 3rd Place
Third Game 11 vs Fourth Game 11

Regular Group - Final
Winner Game 12 vs Winner Game 13

Regular Group - 3rd Place
Loser Game 12 vs Loser Game 13

Novice Group - Final
Winner Game 14 vs Second Game 14

Novice Group - 3rd Place
Third Game 14 vs Fourth Game 14

[Immortal Wombat]

That does make the first match somewhat vital, but it looks good.

[Locutus]

I agree, but ain't it always? If you perform poorly in the first round of the Champions League or WC Football (not the American one), you're out altogether. Here you can still go on... What's the alternative? Only a competition AFAIK, but that would (1) greatly increase the number of games that needs to be played and thus also the chance that people loose interest (a major problem with some other touney's I've followed), and (2) practically force you to play 1-vs-1 all the way. But if anyone does know a better solution, I'm open for it...

BTW, a guy called Filipe told me over MSN he'll also probably join us, which brings us to 16 players (assuming everyone actually plays, which remains to be seen).

[flatlander22]

Yeah, I'm down to play with you all. I just need to know how to install the servers.dat file into my game. I'm NOT a computer guy, so I really don't know what to do. I have it unzipped already too, just so you know. I need to get some practice in on CTP2. I haven't played it very much. I'm more of a civ1-2 & CTP player. I can't wait to play some people online though! Count me in! (after I get this thing working!)
Thanks for the help!

*Edit-
Oh yeah! Someone above mentioned mods, and do I need to d/l any certain ones so that we are all playing on the same level, or does it matter? thanks again

[J Bytheway]

You put the servers.dat in the [Your Ctp2 path]\ctp2_program\ctp\ directory

[JayKay]

Hi, can i jump in too?

I'd love to sign up for this MP game!
_________________________________________________



Portugal
Nation of: Magellan's (from Magellan's Expedition);
Vasco da Gama (Discoverer of the Maritime path to India);
and Pedro Álvares Cabral (Discoverer of Brazil in 1500)

[ETB]

The tournament rounds look good to me Locutus! From my perspective I have a better chance of not finishing 4th every time with the groupings, so I could take solace in the fact that I finished 3rd in a particular round or grouping! That is, if I can actually manage to do so.

I like the idea of setting longer time limits on at least the games in Round 1. Perhaps the remaining rounds can have stricter time limits than the first round. Also, I hope everyone understands the importance of doing their “City Maintenance” tasks while others are taking their turns. I am fairly certain we can adjust build queues while others are taking their turns, but can you also do tile improvements? The more you do while others take their turns will help you meet your time limit.

When will you let the games begin?

[flatlander22]

Originally posted by J Bytheway
You put the servers.dat in the [Your Ctp2 path]\ctp2_program\ctp\ directory

I wasn't joking when I said I was computer stupid.
I hate to be annoying, but I can't play if I don't install this thingie...

[mkalthoff]

Hi all,

I would like to sign in. Please wait for the start a little bit - I immediately will inform 3 friends, who will probably join as well.

To your questions:
1) Random map.
2) mod! Med mod! The changes in med mod do work rather well in mp.
I remember playing a mod before, where the changes only affected sp-games.
Was it Apolyton pack?
3) 3 players are good in the beginning. In any case not more than 4!!
4) Piracy=on, Pillaging=on, Wonders=on, Nukes=on
5) What difficulty/barbarian level? The lowest.
Pollution=on
6) 3 settlers
7) What mapsize? Medium
How many AI players : 2 AI per Human. but not more than 6.

In case of random map:
8) How many calls for restart, in case the starting location is very poor? One
9) What properties should the map have? Islands


10) What kind of MP game?
What are speed cities? Never played with time limit, but would give it a try.

11) What structure of the tournament?

I would suggest for the first tournament: Only 1 winner is going through to the next round,
because this makes the tournament quick. Keep long lasting alternatives for
following tournaments.



Oh, I am so excited.
cu
Marcus

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by flatlander22
I wasn't joking when I said I was computer stupid.
I hate to be annoying, but I can't play if I don't install this thingie...

OK let's try:

From the beginning click on the computer symbol, I think you have to double click on it if you are using Win95, then a window opens there you find a letter that represents your harddrive, as you have no idea of computers it is probably C: So open the hard drive C: by clicking or double clicking on it (depends on your opererating system and settings). Once your are on the folder level of C: go to the folder Programs and open it like you did it with C:, then open the subfolder Activision then the subfolder Call To Power 2, then the subfolder ctp2_program and finally the subfolder ctp, once you are there you will find a servers.dat that doesn't worked and has to be replaced by the one you downloaded, is there no servers.dat then the downloaded one has to be placed there. If your [Your Ctp2 path] is different than the default one then you have to find the file in a differnt folder.

For example I find the file in a folder called C:\Activision\CTP2\ctp2_program\ctp\ instead of the
C:\Programme\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_program\ctp\

So C:\Activision\CTP2 is my CTP2 path and C:\Programme\Activision\Call To Power 2 is the parth suggested by the CTP2 installation program if I remember correctly.

Now to copy the downloaded servers.dat go to the place where you saved the unzipped version of the file then copy it, to do it mark the file by pointing with the mouse cursor on it or click the file once also this depents on the settings in your operatin symstem which I don't know. Once the file is marked you can copy. To do this just press the keys Ctrl and c simultaniously, then go to the ..\ctp2_program\ctp\ folder and press the Ctrl and v again at the same time. You will be asked if you really want to overwrite the file servers.dat, press ok and the replacement should be done.

-Martin

[J Bytheway]

On the English version the default directory is (IIRC) c:\Program files\Activision\Call To Power 2\

[Oerdin]

Hi all, I've been on vacation in Seattle attending my best friend's wedding so you haven't seen me posting here for a week. I don't think we should break people into ability groups; let's just have Lucutus write everyones name down on pieces of paper and have him draw them out of a jar at random. This will make things most fair and we will not have to arbitrally decide who has X amount of experience. Let's just keep it random like they do in sporting events.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Let's just keep it random like they do in sporting events.

what kind of sporting events are those? at the olympics you compete at a very high professional level - i wouldn't even be able to enter without at least winning some minor competitions and getting good times to enter the draw.
I've boxed and i never fought against a fighter outside my own weight and level.

I think it would be better for the new guys to MP, to play against each other where possible, to give them a taste of an enjoyable MP experience. You ever played AOE or any online game against really good players? after 30mins of multiple deaths it's enough to put you of for life(unless you are a masochist i guess?)!!!!

It shouldn't be too much extra work to sort out an initial two tier competition; just get people to post that they want the easy or harder start games and match them up into those groups.

Let's be nice to the newbie's - it'll be good for all of us if everyone has a good time no?
Or are you in this to kill the poor innocence without mercy(while laughing like a maniac!) Mr Oerdin you evil guy

[Locutus]

flatlander,
Let us know how things go with the servers.dat file, we'll help wherever we can...

About mods: at the moment you don't have to download anything. When the start of the tournament grows closer, I might decide on a few minor fixes (more on that later) and will probably prepare a special download for the tournament players which installs all fixes in one simple action.

ETB,
Don't worry, lots of newbies in this tourney, so there's a good chance you might do well - the same goes for everyone else, we generally have no idea of each other's skills...

mkalthoff,
First off, thanks for joining us I'm sorry, but I'm already certain that we'll play the unmodded game, so no MedMod, not this tourney (but if this is a success more Apolyton tourneys/games will surely follow in the future, in which mods will certainly be worth considering).

AFAIK, all mods affect both SP and MP. But you could indeed be referring to Apolyton Pack: most of this mod's changes are to the AI, which could of course in MP games be hard to notice.

If I'm not mistaken, Speed Cities means that you have X seconds per city to play your turn. In this time you have to do your unit movement, combat, etc. So unlike in SP games, time is not unlimited in MP. However, things like diplomacy, city management, etc can be done during other player's turns, so with a decent time limit you normally you shouldn't have to worry too much about running out of time.

I agree with you that the tournament should be a quick one, with few games, but some level of competition should IMHO remain, a defeat shouldn't immediately have to be fatal (everyone has a bad day every now and then). With the current setup, everyone will play 4 games (5 with my revisions below), that's not too much, I think. But I share your concern, I certainly don't plan on having anyone play more than 5 games (5 is already pushing it), but less than 3/4 would make the tournament *too* quick IMHO. But of course, if others agree with you...

Oerdin,
Like CoT said, most sports have *some* kind of selection mechanism to protect of the new/lesser players: wildcards in tennis (I think, I'm no tennis fan) and cycling (although here it has a nationastic background), 'regionalisation' in (regular) football (without it Korea and Senegal would never have come as far as they did during the WC), the draft system of the NBA/NFL/other American sports, etc.

Basically I'm in favour of a fair system where names are picked at random by draft, as you describe, but with the mix of newbies and veterans that we're seeing in this tournament, we have to take into account that veterans want a harder, or at least faster, game than newbies. For an experienced player, a 10 second speed cities be a good setting (wild guess here), but it would drive a newbie nuts, I'm sure.

So I think we should at least make an inventory of what game speeds people prefer and possibly divide the participants in two or three groups for the first round. For the following rounds, it would seem to me that the expert/champions group should use settings that suit the veterans best while the regular/novice group should use more newbie-friendly settings. This is only regarding the type of MP game though (speed cities/regular/etc), map settings and # and level of AI opponents and things like that should IMHO be the same/consistent throughout the tourney.

Do people agree with this?

All,
I added more players to the list of participants, people who either posted on the forums or contacted me via email/ICQ/MSN. I hope I didn't forget anyone...

The total list of participants right now:
1. Maquiladora
2. Oerdin
3. Immortal Wombat
4. Turambar
5. dregman
6. Wittlich
7. Blink Jim
8. Tripa
9. Haupt. Dietrich
10. Wildbore
11. Napoleon
12. Wise Ass
13. ETB
14. flatlander22
15. sontusa
16. JayKay
17. mkalthoff
18. Filipe
19. Siromissam

Thanks to everyone for signing up!

Seeing how the list is growing, we should take into account the possibilty that more than 16 people will eventually play. Assuming the number of players is 20, below is how I suggest we revise the tournament structure to adapt to that. In case of 24 participants, the first round will divide the participants in 2 groups of 12 players (#1s and #2s out of games of 4 players), where the expert/champions structure for round 2/3/4 becomes identical to the structure of the regular/novice structure below. Feedback more than welcome:

Round 1

Game 1
4 Players

Game 2
4 Players

Game 3
4 Players

Game 4
4 Players

Game 5
4 Players

Round 1b
The winners of round 1 plus the best number 2 (player who lost but survived the longest and/or has the highest score) are thrown in one pool and randomly drafted: three will play in game 8, three in game 9; the 4 other players who finish second in round 1 will play play-offs for the 2 remaining places in the Expert Group, the other 2 will join the Regular Group. The players who finished 3rd or 4th are thrown in one big pool and divided over the games for the Regular Group.
(Note: for ease of reading, it is assumed below that the player who finishes second with the best score comes from game 1. In reality this player could come from any of the 5 games of course.)

Expert Qualifiers
(Game 6) Second Game 2 vs Second Game 3
(Game 7) Second Game 4 vs Second Game 5

Round 2

Expert Group - Game 8
Drafted Winner 1
Drafted Winner 2
Drafted Winner 3
Winner Game 6

Expert Group - Game 9
Drafted Winner 4
Drafted Winner 5
Second Winner 6
Winner Game 7

Regular Group - Game 10
Loser Game 6
Drafted Player 1
Drafted Player 2

Regular Group - Game 11
Drafted Player 3
Drafted Player 4
Drafted Player 5

Regular Group - Game 12
Loser Game 7
Drafted Player 6
Drafted Player 7

Regular Group - Game 13
Drafted Player 8
Drafted Player 9
Drafted Player 10

Round 3

Champion Group - Semi Finals
(Game 14) Winner Game 8 vs Second Game 9
(Game 15) Winner Game 9 vs Second Game 8

Expert Group - Game 16
Third Game 8
Third Game 9
Fourth Game 8
Fourth Game 9

Regular Group - Semi Finals
(Game 17) Winner Game 10 vs Winner Game 11
(Game 18) Winner Game 12 vs Winner Game 13

Novice Group - Game 19
Second Game 10
Third Game 11
Second Game 12
Third Game 13

Novice Group - Game 20
Second Game 11
Third Game 10
Second Game 13
Third Game 12

Round 4

Champion Group - Final
(Game 21) Winner Game 14 vs Winner Game 15

Champion Group - 3rd Place
(Game 22) Loser Game 14 vs Loser Game 15

Expert Group - Final
(Game 23) Winner Game 16 vs Second Game 16

Expert Group - 3rd Place
(Game 24) Third Game 16 vs Fourth Game 16

Regular Group - Final
(Game 25) Winner Game 17 vs Winner Game 18

Regular Group - 3rd Place
(Game 26) Loser Game 17 vs Loser Game 18

Novice Group - Final
Winner Game 19 vs Winner Game 20

Novice Group - 3rd Place
Second Game 19 vs Second Game 20

Novice Group - 5rd Place
Third Game 19 vs Third Game 20

Novice Group - 7rd Place
Fourth Game 19 vs Fourth Game 20