July 1 Turnchat

notyoueither · July 1, 2002, 18:02

Well. Trip couldn't load the game, so Timeline stood in for a few turns (2).

The brief bit is that the Greeks were discovered (or one of their warriors) north of the French.

Apolyton went into civil disorder when it grew to 3. Some discussion revolved around putting 1 pop to scientist and setting research to 0.

However, if the ministers so choose, they could put luxuries to 10%. Put the 3rd pop on a forest, and the lost turn of producing the settler is made up.

History Guy · July 1, 2002, 18:30

The Greeks, eh? Well, sir, the warrior is to be congratulated and given a loaf of food or something. Anyway, I gather that these, Greeks as you call them, were seen, but not heard?

Whoops...got to go...the Apolytonian rioters have reached my noble home...

kring · July 1, 2002, 19:02

Thank you for the update nye. I had to work so I couldn't attend. I don't think my boss would appreciate me chatting on company time.

Harovan · July 1, 2002, 19:16

Thanks for the info. So Apolyton went into civil disorder? That's bad. Why were we not able to prevent this?

kring · July 1, 2002, 19:24

Why were we not expecting it? would be my question. It seems we were expecting that to happen when a city went to size 3, but someone wasn't paying attention to growth rate?

Spiffor · July 1, 2002, 19:32

Actually, Apolyton never went into civil disorder.
I annouced this wrongly, as I was playing along (and Timeline asked me to inform people on the chat). Timeline, in the official game, actually avoided Civil Disorder, by changing one citizen into entertainer (I wasn't aware of this at this time).
Apolyton got to size 3 smoothly.

Panag · July 1, 2002, 19:36

hi ,

, maybe a temple should be build , ...

anyone talked about that , ....

NYE , what are your views , concerning these new developments , ....

have a nice day

kring · July 1, 2002, 19:39

That is good. I thought we were expecting that to happen and had a plan in place to prevent it. I am glad we implemented it timely.

ThePlagueRat · July 1, 2002, 20:03

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
Why were we not expecting it? would be my question. It seems we were expecting that to happen when a city went to size 3, but someone wasn't paying attention to growth rate?

Someone also voted pro Emperor level, before we started.
They are the majority, and they have to be ready and feel responsible for all future penalties. Hey, I feel no such responsibliliy!

Timeline · July 1, 2002, 20:11

Okay,

Yes Spiffor is correct, there was never civil disorder, I changed one citizen into an entertainer at the beggining of the turn.

Here is my report:

We found the Greeks in 2550. They are cautious and only have one technology that we don't, the Alphabet. No lucrative trades were possible with any other nation during the 2 turns we played.

Everything went pretty smoothly, and we continued to explore in all three directions. To the east, we found more jungle. To the west, more mountains. And to the north, you guessed it, desert.

At least no one can say we are wussies or had it easy

.

Turn Log:
Turn 29 2590
Citizen in Banana HQ begins working sea tile rather than grassland

Turn 30, 2550 BC
Warrior 2 moves northwest, discovers Greek warrior
Worker 1 begins clearing jungle west of Banana HQ
Warrior 1 moves north, finds more mountains
Warrior 4 moves east, uncovers yet more jungle

Turn 31, 2510
One citizen in Apolyton is changed to an entertainer
Warrior 2 moves north, spots the American city of Washington to the east.
Warrior 1 moves northwest, sees only more mountains
Warrior 4 moves north east

Save Game attached below

ThePlagueRat · July 1, 2002, 20:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, Apolyton never went into civil disorder.
I annouced this wrongly, as I was playing along (and Timeline asked me to inform people on the chat). Timeline, in the official game, actually avoided Civil Disorder, by changing one citizen into entertainer (I wasn't aware of this at this time).
Apolyton got to size 3 smoothly.

Ohmygawd?! Shh....
Are you aware of the corporal punishment involved in such "playing along" ? ( It's a clause in the constitution.)
Psst, I won't tell anyone... if you promise not to do it again.

Panag · July 1, 2002, 20:16

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat

Ohmygawd?! Shh....
Are you aware of the corporal punishment involved in such "playing along" ? ( It's a clause in the constitution.)
Psst, I won't tell anyone... if you promise not to do it again.

hi ,

the banana high counsil has ruled that nothing was done illegal , nor was the constition broken at any time , ....

have a nice day

notyoueither · July 1, 2002, 20:19

Very good news re Apolyton not going into civil disorder.

That's a turn not lost.

Apologies for the scare. However, it was announced in Red and nothing conclusively said otherwise, that I noticed.

Nice catch Timeline.

Timeline · July 1, 2002, 20:19

Map

Timeline · July 1, 2002, 20:20

Turnchat (minister chat and main chat)

Spiffor · July 1, 2002, 20:37

Plague Rat : playing ahead is forbidden as it ruins the fun. Playing ahead consists in playing alone at home, without waiting for the community to play. If I played ahead, I might have discovered the whole map and all Civs already.

Playing along is different : it mimics the President's moves, and thus, someone who plays along doesn't know what the others don't know. But such a player knows everything other people could know.
Playing along is necessary for the ministers to precisely know what happens : for example, Ninot needs to play along to know what other civs have to offer. If ministers didn't play along, the Prez would have to give extremely precise reports continuously on the smallest matter, and would have to do all the work.

GodKing · July 1, 2002, 20:54

I have no problem with playing along. But I do have a question. As each game is played on a seperate computer. Each game is starting out from the same point, the last save. But since each machine is different, each set of random events will not work out the same. So if we attack with an archer to a swordman, on one machine we loose, on the other we win. The more we play along the larger the chance of something different happening. Is this logic correc t? If so, how was this handled in earlier demo games? Ministers couldn't necessarily follow along except in the early stages before any wars or other random type events that could efect our nation.

Panag · July 1, 2002, 20:57

Quote:

Originally posted by GodKing
I have no problem with playing along. But I do have a question. As each game is played on a seperate computer. Each game is starting out from the same point, the last save. But since each machine is different, each set of random events will not work out the same. So if we attack with an archer to a swordman, on one machine we loose, on the other we win. The more we play along the larger the chance of something different happening. Is this logic correc t? If so, how was this handled in earlier demo games? Ministers couldn't necessarily follow along except in the early stages before any wars or other random type events that could efect our nation.

hi ,

you got something there , ....

however only the president or vc should play , the rest should follow his moves , ...

have a nice day

kring · July 1, 2002, 21:01

It depends on whether or not preserve random seed flag is on/off. If random seed is on, then the results should be the same across the board. In circumstances where this doesn't happen, the President could upload or email the saved game to the necessary parties.

If the preserve seed is off, then you are correct things can be different on different machines.

Another way for things to be different with random seed preserved would be for different people to process their turns differently. Say you attack with 5 units; then the order of attack needs to be the same across the board since a different order of attack would still have the same number of attacks, but the random numbers would be applied to different units, possibly causing problems.

Panag · July 1, 2002, 21:09

Quote:

Originally posted by kring
It depends on whether or not preserve random seed flag is on/off. If random seed is on, then the results should be the same across the board. In circumstances where this doesn't happen, the President could upload or email the saved game to the necessary parties.

If the preserve seed is off, then you are correct things can be different on different machines.

Another way for things to be different with random seed preserved would be for different people to process their turns differently. Say you attack with 5 units; then the order of attack needs to be the same across the board since a different order of attack would still have the same number of attacks, but the random numbers would be applied to different units, possibly causing problems.

hi ,

, somewhere there was talk about this before , and it was believed that they did not use the random seed , ....

we should ask the President when he gets back , ...

have a nice day

kring · July 1, 2002, 21:19

If you are correct, then that would explain something I saw in somebody's comments. Where one person's results were different than another person's. The thing is this is unnecessary to turn it off since it would only affect if we were reloading. Also, it would cause the abovementioned situation, esp. later in the game when battles and other more random things do occur with much greater frequency.

Spiffor · July 1, 2002, 21:22

Random seed is preserved in the game, this has been voted with a 81% majority ( http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=52406 )

Even if some mistakes can be made by playing along (for example, my mistake, not to convert an Apolyton citizen into an entertainer), there is only ONE official game, the one played by the prez or VP. Whenever a mistake has been made, the "along player" gets latest official save. Random results also only matter in this very official save.

As I said, plying along is a necessity for ministers... Imagine, Ninot is busy with intelligence. He keeps track of all ifo, and posts it in the forum. If he didn't play along, he'd have to ask Trip : "so, how much money have the French ?". "So, did the Americans found their 3rd city already ?" etc. Meanwhile, Punkbass would ask "are we working the tile NE or SW of Banana HQ ?", and Uber would ask "how many tiles unexplored will we see if we move Warrior1 on the mountain north ?".
At the beginning of the game, handling such a constant flux of info is already unmanageable. At the end of the game, it could only be worse.
People who decide small things (aka the ministers) have to play along.

kring · July 1, 2002, 21:28

Playing along makes sense. If I get a chance during a turnchat, I would play along as well. Following the official moves.

I agree it would be difficult early game, much less later in the game, for the ministers not to be able to play along. More so for the president since he would have to provide all the info to each of the ministers, and us citizens, too.

History Guy · July 1, 2002, 22:22

Oh, all is well then, hurrah. Of love and wine their rights maintain. At least the eternal city isn't up in arms. But, as for these Greeks, would you thus say that they are technologically on par with our own, great empire?

Jon Shafer · July 1, 2002, 22:32

Sorry about the technical difficulties earlier today guys, my grandparent's computer here in Illinois had about 5 problems with Civ, 4 of which I fixed, 1 of which was impossible (old video card). Sooooo, Linney took up for me, did a fine job, and I'll be back for this up-and-coming Thursday to head things again.

Anyways, back on-topic, playing along is only allowed if the person conducts the move written in red after the President gives in the turnchat. Always. That is the rule. Not even ministers are allowed to conduct their moves before the President officially anounces them. We had a problem earlier during one of the turnchats, which I won't disclose, but that proves more than anything that that's how things must go.

Kingof the Apes · July 1, 2002, 22:38

They have alphabet, I believe that France and America do to.

notyoueither · July 1, 2002, 23:28

Just a word about preserving random seed and the effects of diplomacy.

When we go to war, it will probably be impossible to play along for anybody checking diplomatic screens. This is because going into diplomacy is supposed to use a random number from the cue. Thereafter the cue is different and the results of combat different. Likewise, if the President checks diplomacy, but the followers do not everyone is thrown off. This could become quite confusing for everyone unless we keep in mind that the President's game is the 'real' one and don't babble too much about small differences.

Just an observation.

Spiffor · July 2, 2002, 00:41

Once things get serious (tons of units to move, battles nd other events which affect random), I suggest the Prez issues a save at the beginning and at the end of each turn.
By issuing it at the beginning of the turn, the Prez would allow ministers to take their decision in the regular turn. By issuing the save at the end, the Prez will allow ministers to give orders for the between-turn period (for example, when a foreigner asks for an agreement).

This way, everybody could do their job without trying to follow the game at the same time.

Inverse Icarus · July 2, 2002, 00:45

again, accept my condolences for my absence. i have no plans for the 4th of july, and unless i get dragged to some party i have no idea about, i should be there

Kuciwalker · July 2, 2002, 11:17

It looks like we got 3 billion years.