The Difference Between Good and Great Players - Page 4

ramses II. · July 7, 2002, 01:37

I don't see an important difference between 1x1 deity and 2x2 king. The strategy is the same! Only the tactical possibilities have changed. On the strategical point of view it is no difference if a cat can go 1, 2, 3 or 4 fields. On the tactictal point of view the differences are huge, I agree. But it's still the same game! The long term strategic aims are the same:
AC or World conquest. So the short term startegic aims:
extinguishing your neighbor.

atawa · July 7, 2002, 07:50

Quote:

Originally posted by ramses II.
I don't see an important difference between 1x1 deity and 2x2 king. The strategy is the same! Only the tactical possibilities have changed. On the strategical point of view it is no difference if a cat can go 1, 2, 3 or 4 fields. On the tactictal point of view the differences are huge, I agree. But it's still the same game! The long term strategic aims are the same:
AC or World conquest. So the short term startegic aims:
extinguishing your neighbor.

Main goals in 2x2x king island games:

Rep in 2850
Trade in 2650
LH in 2450

After that a tech a turn till Magalans is build in +/- 1800
Citycount by 2000bc: 25-30

Now please explain why the strategy's are the same in 1x1x deity

DrSpike · July 7, 2002, 08:01

I think he means the long term aims are the same, even if the details change. The separation of strategy/tactics is used a lot in chess to try and split the skills required to play the game well up into long term strategic issues and short term tactical issues. Of course viewed completely literally the seperation here is naive and simplistic, as it is in other games such as chess. However it does provide a working framework; 1x1x deity highlights strategy over tactics, and in 2x2x king the tactical possibilities are greater, at the expense of strategy. To complete the analysis which game you play depends on your relative tastes for strategy and tactics.

A way of expressing the settings debate that both sides will agree with? Nah, doubt it.

atawa · July 7, 2002, 08:03

So following this line of thought civ and risk are basicly the same game

StrategicKingMi · July 7, 2002, 17:41

Bye the bye, Deity Dude did not kick my ass Spike. In fact I had 6 units, he had 5. We both had 5 citys. I closed him off to most of the board, got most of the huts, destroyed his citys, had a vet archer rampaging down on top of him.
The only thing he did well was not get the 4 empty huts I got, the 4 techs that I got and the 4 barbs from huts that I got.
The barbs killed 3 times as many of my units as he did.
He never even got close to one of my citys, nor did he get many huts due to me cutting him off from them.
I quit because it was just really boring. 1 hour into play and only 10 citys on the board?????
Played a 2 x 2 king game the other night and 1 hour into the game I had republic and trade. There were 35 citys on the board and mine were already celebrating . I was trading vans and getting a tech a turn not to mention 300 gold a turn. My opponenet built hanging gardens and got philosphy already.
The choice of which to play is obvious to me. I respect my valueable time too much to play 1 x 1 deity.....
Make it a matter of money, then Ill play and win most games verse anybody in the world....It is, afterall much, much easier to play.....
OH ITS TRUE, ITS DAMN TRUE......

StrategicKingMi · July 7, 2002, 17:53

Landed a settler on other players coastline. Built a city. Moved the caravel into city with 2 other settlers. Built 2 legs of roads conectinting his roads to my city. Then moved another caravel into that city, moved catapults 3 squares and destroyed an enemy city with 5 catapults.
Then, moved a ship with another settler, dropped it off on top of 5 cats and built another city. Loaded up the catapults and evacuated them from vulnerability!
In the end, he lost a 4 person city, I lost 4 settlers. He lost 4 pikes, 4 crusaders (poised to invade me next turn) and 2 caravels!!!!!!!! A truely devestaing blow......
This is pretty creative on my part but something you CAN NOT do on 1 x 1 deity simply because the movement is not there and you can not produce that kind of force as easily not to mention the unhappiness factor.
The point of this is simply that at 1 x 1 deity, you are playing against the computer, not a thinking, adaptable humanbeing.

DrSpike · July 7, 2002, 19:02

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi

I quit because it was just really boring.

Oh I see now, quitting through boredom constitutes a draw or a win. Hey War, the second game we are playing is a little boring, so I'm claiming the draw now while I still can. The other one isn't boring.......so we'll play that out.

Ming · July 7, 2002, 19:50

Yeah... a typical SK line... I was only behind because of luck... I was bored... given a choice of playing a game I was winning vs one I was losing, I played the game I was winning... So because of this, I didn't lose the other game...

StrategicKingMi · July 7, 2002, 19:54

Are you just trying to be dumb or annoy me? I lost, so what. But I lost due to absoloutely nothing that deity dude did..... end of story....

Ming · July 7, 2002, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Are you just trying to be dumb or annoy me? I lost, so what. But I lost due to absoloutely nothing that deity dude did..... end of story....

I understand...

When you win... it's skill...
When you lose or quit... it's because of bad luck...

Oh Yes, I understand perfectly...

Flatlander Fox · July 7, 2002, 20:50

Keep quitting games that are "boring", and I would think that you would have a hard time finding future games.

If you are good, fine. But when you put that argument out there, the pot-shots you receive should be expected.

SmartFart · July 7, 2002, 20:54

I see feeding the troll is still very popular game around here.

StrategicKingMi · July 7, 2002, 20:56

Virtually every game ends before the planet is conquered or a space coloney is established. Care to play a game fox? Dont listen to others, find out yourself... I dont usually quit games, it is the other way around.... You are listening to players who dont play me and emphasizing one particular game. Goto the zone now, I am there.

Alexander's Horse · July 7, 2002, 21:18

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Virtually every game ends before the planet is conquered or a space coloney is established.

Not so - I have a game going with finbar and Hydey which is almost certainly going to the space race.

Its common for us. As long as Hydey doesn't get nuclear weapons

DrFell · July 7, 2002, 22:35

Don't play 1x deity, play 1x king. Normal 1x king duels for me by the hour or two mark I have 30 cities or so, a couple wonders, republic, trade, monotheism, invention, etc on an island map. Diety just slows it all down (not so bad on 2x production though). Quitting 1x games from bordom is BS, the potential is there for a good game most of the time. Deity sucks though because you're limited in city count. I mean, what's the point of all that? Sure, I bet you all enjoy having 3/4 of the map empty for 90% of the game.

StrategicKingMi · July 7, 2002, 22:40

Very few players can compete equally through modern times so they get frustrated and quit/resign as they probably should if the game is no longer competitive.
Good for you if you found compatiable players who can keep it interesting that long.
I, on the other hand, have failed to get a game competitive that long as , utilizing trade routes as well as I do, the longer the game goes, the more my advantage snowballs down on my opponet and they resign. It is my feverant hope to correct this competitive gap, and really, that is why I even post here, ...
maybe, just maybe to get someone to look at things differently, try some of the things I have been endorsing and be able to provide me with that competition and uncertainty....
Enough of this, lets go back to the stupidity....
Ming....your comments .....

Ming · July 7, 2002, 22:41

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell
Sure, I bet you all enjoy having 3/4 of the map empty for 90% of the game.

I don't know what kind of games you are playing... we usually run out of land long before AD and we only play Deity... But then again, we don't play on super big maps. We actually like meeting the other players before the industrial age

Ming · July 7, 2002, 22:43

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi Enough of this, lets go back to the stupidity....
Ming....your comments .....

Hmmm... I just point out the truth... you just insult people who disagree with you. I'll let other people form their own opinons.

Alexander's Horse · July 8, 2002, 00:25

Quote:

Originally posted by DrFell

Diety just slows it all down. Quitting 1x games from bordom is BS, the potential is there for a good game most of the time. Deity sucks though because you're limited in city count. I mean, what's the point of all that?

Well this is one of those "to each his own" issue. I like it.

ramses II. · July 8, 2002, 01:29

The year you get republic or trade or something else is only a milestone on your way to your long term strategic aim. Do you surrender if rep comes 500 years later or you aren't able to build LH? I'm sure you don't.
Your strategic aims haven't changed - only your tactical possibilities!
In chieftain, prince king and deity you need good production and good economical base. You need room where you can expand and you need fertile land and hills to mine.

In deity, yo will get those 3x-, 4x- and 12x super-cats some years later- they are called artillery, howitzers, armors and stealth fighters.

Hydey · July 8, 2002, 04:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
As long as Hydey doesn't get nuclear weapons

what about that sneak attack finbar has planned for you.

oops

DrFell · July 8, 2002, 07:23

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Very few players can compete equally through modern times so they get frustrated and quit/resign as they probably should if the game is no longer competitive.
Good for you if you found compatiable players who can keep it interesting that long.

Actually I've not yet found anyone who could beat me on 1x king, just the games go on longer to later techs.

Ming I was talking about 1x1x medium map duels... not tiny map 2x1x 4-ways

SlowwHand · July 8, 2002, 09:44

What we seem to have here are many claims of greatness, as long as preferred settings are used.
Sorry, but that hardly qualifies as "great" in my book.

atawa · July 8, 2002, 12:02

Quote:

Originally posted by ramses II.
The year you get republic or trade or something else is only a milestone on your way to your long term strategic aim. Do you surrender if rep comes 500 years later or you aren't able to build LH? I'm sure you don't.

Off course not, the more challenging the game, the more I enjoy it.

Quote:

Your strategic aims haven't changed - only your tactical possibilities!

My strategic aims being winning the game

Quote:

In chieftain, prince king and deity you need good production and good economical base. You need room where you can expand and you need fertile land and hills to mine.

In deity, yo will get those 3x-, 4x- and 12x super-cats some years later- they are called artillery, howitzers, armors and stealth fighters.

Stealth fighters?

I guess you never played MP much, usualy the game is over before electricity.

StrategicKingMi · July 8, 2002, 15:59

Atawa just kicked my ass, bad... He traded very well, launched a vicous assult. Had me confused from where he was coming from.
Cudos to a well earned win...
(things could have been different but I lost an extremely close and essential 2 battles, losing a ship and 2 settlers early in the game)
Good game....Next...

rah · July 8, 2002, 17:00

Kudos for Strat for giving Atawa Kudos.
You do have some class.

RAH

SlowwHand · July 8, 2002, 18:19

This should be in the commercial that says "Yeah. It's kind of like that", talking about refreshing.

Deity Dude · July 9, 2002, 00:25

Quote:

Originally posted by StrategicKingMi
Bye the bye, Deity Dude did not kick my ass Spike. In fact I had 6 units, he had 5. We both had 5 citys. I closed him off to most of the board, got most of the huts, destroyed his citys, had a vet archer rampaging down on top of him.
The only thing he did well was not get the 4 empty huts I got, the 4 techs that I got and the 4 barbs from huts that I got.
The barbs killed 3 times as many of my units as he did.
He never even got close to one of my citys, nor did he get many huts due to me cutting him off from them.
I quit because it was just really boring. 1 hour into play and only 10 citys on the board?????

Well I was gonna stay out of this one because the "I'm better then you" threads are the same thing over and over, but, since I was mentioned I would like to respond.

You failed to point out that you were reseaching Monarchy at 24 turns/tech and I was already in Monarchy and 2 or 3 turns from Republic.

You failed to point out that the vet archer you had strolling around by itself would have been bribed in a turn or two by one of my 2 diplos.

You failed to point out that I was keeping my city total low while waiting for Rep due to the riot factor.

This is the point at which you resigned, just as you did in the 2x1x game I was beating you in.

Your synopsis of the game illustrates perfectly why you lost that game. You took a 2x2x king approach to a 1x1x deity game.

You mentioned somewhere that you would play and win one of the "mind-numbing games" for money but otherwise it wasn't worth your while.

FORMAL CHALLENGE TO STRAT:

$50
best of 3
1x1x deity
Loser personally delivers the payoff to the winner.

Please no excuses just say yes or no. We'll let your answer speak for itself.

DrSpike · July 9, 2002, 03:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Deity Dude

FORMAL CHALLENGE TO STRAT:

$50
best of 3
1x1x deity
Loser personally delivers the payoff to the winner.

Please no excuses just say yes or no. We'll let your answer speak for itself.

I was going to suggest continuing our game this weekend DD.........I will have to check my balance first though.

Deity Dude · July 9, 2002, 13:03

Ill be up for continuing our game Spike

what time is good for you again

was it a duel or did we have others in it (Dank???)