I can't keep up w/the Jones'

[johncmcleod]

On harder difficulty levels, I just can't keep up in the tech race w/other civs. I set science research to 90% from the start of the game and I make a few scientist specialist, and on top of that I have a lot of cities (it says the glorious Persians on the largest nations in the world thing) and commerce (though it's all spent on science). Most of the time I don't know if I'm advanced or not, and then I meet another civ who's way ahead of me and we're only in the ancient age, or I look at the 'Most Advanced Nations in the World' report thing, and I see myself at the bottom, the pathetic Persians. And all of that w/a scientific civ! Can somebody help?

[FrustratedPoet]

The main accepted tactic for higher levels is to set your Science slider to 0 - 10% after you have met a couple of other Civs.

The reasoning behind this is that you can then set Tax to 90 or 100% and can buy the techs from your opponents faster than you could research them on your own. Since the AI gets such big bonuses above Regent you may as well take advantage of it.

Another good tip for building up techs is using an Oscillating War (tm) strategy. Go to war with a nearby Civ, raze 2 or 3 cities (inculding the capitol if you can manage it) and then ask them for peace. They'll probably be scared of you and will gladly give up a couple of techs to get you to go away. Once you have re-stocked your military target another Civ and use this tactic again.
This also has the advantage of giving you the chance of generating a Great Leader that will help you rush a Wonder.

[Theseus]

For all the great commentary here, I don;t remember a great science thread.

There's lots of good advice distributed about however... somebody, I think Arrian or Aeson, recently wrote a bunch of good science /tech tips.

My genreal approach: don;t try to research everything. Figure out your overall game strat, and belline for those techs. Beat the rest of the early techs out of AI civs, via early oscllating wr. Buy some, preferably from lesser developed nations. Ad you get to medieval / industrial, continue your own research path, but with a preference for the "southern" line. Trade like crazy... where possible, trade resources for techs.

As you get more experience, ge a fell for what the AI civs research... don;t research the same thing. Those techs get cheaper as more civs know them, and any techs you discover first are incredibly valuable. BTW, when seling techs, check around for who will give you the best price... it's not always the strongest AI civ.


Lastly, I don;t buy the 10% thing... early in Despotism, you are very disadvantaged in researching techs, but if you play wiht the slider every couple of turns, you'll find that there seem to be "break points" where all of of a sudden increasing to, say 40% research, will cut the time for that tech in half.

Thomas Edison: 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Another good tip for building up techs is using an Oscillating War (tm) strategy. Go to war with a nearby Civ, raze 2 or 3 cities (inculding the capitol if you can manage it) and then ask them for peace. They'll probably be scared of you and will gladly give up a couple of techs to get you to go away. Once you have re-stocked your military target another Civ and use this tactic again.

Is the AI more likely to give you techs if you have a lot of units outside one of its cities?

[FrustratedPoet]

Another tip:

You might consider this to be an exploit, and not want to use it, and probably know this already, but ...

When you are one turn away from researching a tech you can briefly reduce your science down to 10% (will still research the tech in one turn) and jack your Tax up to 90%. You can move the sliders back the next turn and continue research as normal. It's a great way to get yourself a couple of hundred extra Gold.

[The Pioneer]

How much does it cost to typically buy a tech from the AI. Ok, I know it depends on how many have it, its significance, etc. but what are some of the max. min. amounts you have paid in your games. My most expensive one yet was about 8000 for Radio to Shaka.
I am wondering if that'S too much, it certainly emptied my treasury....

[Solver]

Hmm, that trade seems too much. Shaka must have been valuing the tech very high, and it generally gies you nothing to build... I think it's a bit too much.

[Velociryx]

Good thread. As with everything, there's almost certainly more than one way to go about it, but here's the way I've found to consistently work, regardless of the level of difficulty I'm playing:

Early (especially if I am starting on a river): Ratchet science to 90-100% and beeline for Mathematics. The other civs NEVER seem to research Mathematics, but they'll give up the farm in tech trades for it. In the meantime, in order to finance the occassional tech purchase, I'll make it a point to ransack Barb villages. Two of them (50g) will often net me any one of the the early (level 1) techs I want (Warrior Code, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial).

A bit of trading sees me in shape to make an Archer Blitz, and continue to keep pace. At this point tho, my slider is still set "fairly high" (high enough to research at a decent clip, while still making money), and I'm beelining for Currency. Why? Most important tech of the Ancient Era, IMO. The Marketplace is a godawfully powerful build. Happiness AND Mo' Money.

The MOMENT we get Currency, every city I've got stops what it's doing and builds a Market.

After Currency, we run straight for either Monarchy or Republic, depending on the current game, and make the switch.

Once the Anarchy period is over, that's when I'll kill my research to 10% or thereabouts, using the cash windfall to rush Markets and other basic infrastructure (Temples, Libraries) in place...and in general, my order of preference is: 1st: Temple (unless playing a Scientific Civ, or if I have 2+ Luxuries) 2nd: Libraries (switches to 1st if I'm playing Scientific or have 2+ Luxuries), Marketplace.

Reasonings behind the build order: 1- Happiness, 2 - Culture, 3 - Greater Market effect after the city has had a bit of time to grow.

In any case, using the spare cash generated by leaving science at 10% for a while is a good investment, cos it gives me MORE spare cash with each one rushed to completion (and btw, when I hit the middle ages, I make a similar beeline to Banking, and repeat, with a side stop to Chivalry if I'm wanting to do some more warring), and during this period, if I AM fighting, I can still keep up in tech. Doesn't really matter how fast or slow I can research, cos I'm getting my techs via another way, BUT....once all those Banks come online, I can rush in universities obscenely quickly, and when I am ready to start researching on my own, the sheer number of cities I have with rushed-in Unis gives me enough research,and then some, to offset the AI's built in advantages.

-=Vel=-
PS: If you're currently researching a tech, the AI will give it to you on the cheap. The fewer turns you have to go on research, the cheaper the sale price. If the wonder associated with the tech has already been built, they'll sell it cheap. The more people who know the tech already, the cheaper the price. At least, those have been my observations.

-V.

[Velociryx]

Variant: The last game I played, I was fortunate enough to start on a river, already had Bronze Working. Made my first tech to research Warrior Code, and with science set to 90%, I got it in something like 14 turns. Didn't take too long after that to open up a can of whoopa$$ on my nearest neighbors (archer blitz with only three cities in place, and no spearmen to accompany them on the initial run!). So yep....under certain conditions, you can beat the snot outta the AI, research wise.

-=Vel=-

PS: Found cities on top of gold mines, esp. if they're close to your capitol!

[Solver]

Nice observations, Vel. Going for currency is something I've never really done, leaving Mathematics and Currency as the last techs to research, can this be the reason for my traditional early Middle Ages crisis?

[Flight]

nice tips, i never spend more than 3000 gold on a single tech and it helps to pay gpt or resources to someone to buy the techa nd then go to war with them

(304 gpt to china? think ill have beijing please )

[Velociryx]

Thank ya, Solver, and it may well be. See...by waiting till near the end of the Ancient Age to get Currency, you're doing two things: First, you're following the AI's research pattern instead of heading off in another direction. That means that your native research isn't as efficient as it could be, cos you're researching stuff the AI is researching too, and it can do it better than you in the early goings anyway, so you may as well let it.

Second, you're delaying (by a significant margin) getting access to a money machine that doubles up as a happiness enhancer! Market's aren't cheap, that's true, but there are some things you can do to help get them in place more quickly, and once you do, you'll really notice the difference!

To outline more clearly, here's exactly what I find myself doing:

* Soon as we have Currency, trade it away to everybody we're in contact with. If we were falling behind in tech, we're not anymore.

* Assess the current situation, and determine if more warring is in order. If yes, beeline for Monarchy, if no, Republic.

* Regardless of whether additional warring is needed in the immediacy, ALL cities begin work on Markets on the turn that I get the tech, even if it interrupts some other build (the one exception being a wonder build....they're important, but not THAT important).

* Tax slider immediately takes a nose dive. I want to maintain profitibility while researching, so whatever rate will allow for that. Primarily though, I'm hoarding cash for flexibility.

* For speed, and because Markets are a happiness enhancer, I will rush them and temples under despotism, and have yet to feel the sting for it. That's one way of speeding things along.

* Set workers to clear-cut forest around cities working on Markets. Ten shields of production can shave 2-3 turns off of your build time.

* When workers aren't clear-cutting forest, have them make additional mines to spike shield counts. Marketplaces should be treated almost like early, rushable wonders for what they do for you.

Soon as a city finishes its Market, it can get back to doing whatever it was doing before getting interrupted, but the key thing is that once you're ready to switch to Monarchy/Republic, after you've taken the time to get those Markets up and running earlier, rather than later, you'll notice a really quite large difference in your gpt inflows....makes everything easier, and gives you enormous flexibility.

If at peace, rush in peacetime infrastructure, focusing on specific cities that get to "build everything" first....those cities can then crank out an endless stream of troops.

If at war, upgrade your existing army and/or rush buy troops.

Pay cash and spare luxuries for tech.

Give it a go, and see how it does for you!

-=Vel=-

[Flight]

cheers for the details vel, ill try that in my next game

[Solver]

Thanks Vel, I will also be trying this tomorrow... after I finish the game today .

Really, if this helps me get rid of the early Middle Age crisis, I'll love it.

Like the ideas for also rushing Markets... yeah, surely worth giving a try.

I've beaten Regent due to excellent warring in the Ancient age, now I look forward to beating it a bit easier by using this approach. I want to achieve very high levels of play in Civ 3!

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Solver
I've beaten Regent due to excellent warring in the Ancient age, now I look forward to beating it a bit easier by using this approach.

Me too.

I've decided to only play on small maps because that way I can actually play more than one or two games per month.

[Alkis]

What you will research and how much you will allocate depends on many factors but to catch up in technology peacefully the main idea is to research a "later" technology.

Good techs to research are Mathematics/Currency, or Writing/Literature. It is important to get a technology first and then trade it for a lot of gold or techs. If you think you can't make it don't even try it. You have the alternative to go to war with someone and extort technologies.

When you trade have in mind that a technology costs less if many civs have it therefore establishing contact with the other civs early is important.

Something that no one mentioned, build the Great Library. It isn't that hard because the AI doesn't research literature very early. It is uncommon to be built before 500 BC.

-

[Solver]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet


Me too.

I've decided to only play on small maps because that way I can actually play more than one or two games per month.

I'm not enjoying small maps too much... but yeah, due to limited time, games sometimes take like a week or more to finish .

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Another tip:

You might consider this to be an exploit, and not want to use it, and probably know this already, but ...

When you are one turn away from researching a tech you can briefly reduce your science ...

*No way* is that an exploit - it's just the 'change' from your research which would otherwise be lost.

[Qilue]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
Another tip:

You might consider this to be an exploit, and not want to use it, and probably know this already, but ...

When you are one turn away from researching a tech you can briefly reduce your science down to 10% (will still research the tech in one turn) and jack your Tax up to 90%. You can move the sliders back the next turn and continue research as normal. It's a great way to get yourself a couple of hundred extra Gold.

I usually do this on every Tech on every turn to squeeze extra gold off research.

Btw, 8k is way too much. I usually see how much they want for a tech and if the price is above the spy mission cost, then I steal it. Stealing the tech also gives more satisfaction.

Confession - due to the half-assed design of espionage in Civ3, I generally employ the Picard Manaeuvre each turn until I get it.

Observation - the 3 options seem to have little difference. If the random seed says you will fail, then using a more expensive option has no effect.

2nd observation - Easy way to get the AI to declare war on you if you have the cash and are democratic. Keep performing the same failed spy mission over and over in the same turn and eventually the AI will declare war.

[Solver]

I do sometimes steal techs, because I fixed espionage... easy really. In Civ 3 as it is, espionage is quite useless due to extremely high prices. However, by going into the editor and slightly lowering the prices, I usually find myself with quite some ability to use intelligence.

[Theseus]

Picard Manouevre??

[johncmcleod]

If I'm correct, Theseus, the Picard Manouevre is saving right before you try something that is the luck of the draw then doing it, and if it succeeds, save again. If not, load the game. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but you guys talk of setting the science slider down to 10% and raising taxes to 90%. Do you mean to just move the science slider down to 10% so you can get more money, so it's like taxes would be at 90%? Or is there a tax slider? I have looked everywhere for one and I don't see one. Sorry if that's a stupid question, but every month or so I discover something new to this game that is common knowlege to almost everyone else.

[Velociryx]

Right you are! Science slider down to 10% = 90% taxes...effectively, both on the same slider....

-=Vel=-

[albiedamned]

It's definitely a little confusing at first. The tax rate is just 100 minus the science rate minus the luxuries rate. There is no specific tax slider.

Does anyone ever use the luxury slider? I can't recall ever using it, but I haven't played above Monarch so maybe you need it more on higher levels. I guess if you don't have enough luxury resources, and you can't get Sistine or Bach, then you might need it.

[Geekinstein]

...one thing you may want to consider:

if you don't want to set 10% aside for R&D, but still want the 32 moves to next tech: flip one person to scientist in any one of your cities and you'll see 32 show up in the number of moves to next tech slot.

[Theseus]

At Monarch and higher, I typically set Luxury to 10% on hitting Republic or Democracy, depending on my luxury resource / Marketplace / warweariness situation. Sometimes higher, if the wars fare poorly.