Tech avalanche

Venger · July 4, 2002, 15:40

(Note - I am official coiner of that phrase)

I'm doing some light modding and spicing up of Civ3 to see if it can capture enough interest for me to actually finish a game of it...

Anyways, the one thing that still bothers me about Civ, from Civ2 to now, is tech avalanche. I've reduced the research rates so it takes longer to discover techs. BUT...

The AI still tech whores between each other, meaning that, by, 40 turns into the game, the human player is behind everyone else by about 5 techs.

Is there a way to either eliminate or reduce tech whoring between the AI? Maybe disallow trading more than one consecutice tech? Buy one, you have to research the next one...or somesuch? Hell, I'd just as soon do AWAY with tech trading and have a slider that controls AI research bonus, so the AI can be competitive in tech without snowballing the player...

Additionally, any other advice on reducing tech avalanche? Nothing is worse than finally being able to build a new unit, only to discover a new tech that obsoletes the unit before you can build them! I'd like to lengthen the time period out, actually get a more historical feel for having early tanks, bronze swordsmen, knights templar, etc.

Thanks,

Venger

Jaybe · July 4, 2002, 15:49

Difficulty Levels tab:
For the level you are playing, ...
AI to AI Trade: set to 100 so AI sees no profit in trading for it. Or even set it BELOW 100??

--
Question is, would you be able to sell your own techs with such settings? You might be in need of luxuries, etc.

Venger · July 4, 2002, 16:08

Thank you! Can't believe I missed that one!

Has anyone played with this and found the right balance between allowing trade and crushing tech whoring?

Thanks,

Venger

SpencerH · July 5, 2002, 07:25

Isnt the tech whoring simply a part of the game level? If you reduce it, you're just turning an emperor or deity level game into a monarch level game.

alva · July 5, 2002, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Isnt the tech whoring simply a part of the game level? If you reduce it, you're just turning an emperor or deity level game into a monarch level game.

Part off, but not the whole story

from monarch on the AI gets: production ,
hapinnes,free unit bonusses,...etc

Velociryx · July 5, 2002, 10:49

YES! I've been wondering that same thing! Sheesh...that's a good thing to know....the one thing I can't stand is the insane way that games shoot up the tree...with everybody trading absolutely everything, the entire notion of what to research in what order has ZERO meaning. What could be....what should be one of the most strategic elements of the game is reduced to an absolutely meaningless afterthought.

Glad to see that there's a way to remedy that!

-=Vel=-

ALPHA WOLF 64 · July 5, 2002, 11:07

are you playing the current patch? i've noticed that tech whoring is reduced somewhat in 1.21. Also, I eliminated communications trading until the middle ages, therefore, the AIs cant trade wildly with each other until they've actually made contact.

Jaybe · July 5, 2002, 13:55

In my current Regent game, I set the AI to AI Trade to 120 from the default Regent 140. 120 is the Warlord level.

Velociryx · July 5, 2002, 15:33

What effect have you noticed with that setting? Less trading? Almost no trading?

-=Vel=-

SpencerH · July 5, 2002, 16:23

I'm playing the GOTM IX. Its at emperor. What I've noticed is the same old bug that we all saw with CIV and CIV2. The AI galleys didnt sink! I watched many, many cross open waters where some of them should have sank, not one did. It meant that the AI could trade while I could not since I couldnt afford a fleet of galleys to find the other civs. Therefore, the AI civs got a big tech lead. I think this kind of AI behaviour is the root of the tech advantage that the AI gets.

FrustratedPoet · July 5, 2002, 16:31

Would the AI Galleys sink more often below Regent level, do you think?

SpencerH · July 5, 2002, 16:38

I dunno, I never play there.

Soren Johnson · July 5, 2002, 17:27

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
I'm playing the GOTM IX. Its at emperor. What I've noticed is the same old bug that we all saw with CIV and CIV2. The AI galleys didnt sink! I watched many, many cross open waters where some of them should have sank, not one did. It meant that the AI could trade while I could not since I couldnt afford a fleet of galleys to find the other civs. Therefore, the AI civs got a big tech lead. I think this kind of AI behaviour is the root of the tech advantage that the AI gets.

If you see the AI moving its galleys over water, it is because they have the techs which allow them to do so (like Navigation or Magnetism). Works the same for the human.

Ribannah · July 5, 2002, 18:08

Spence, most likely one of the AI tribes built the Lighthouse.
That's what I did myself in my GOTM9 game, and the AI galleys behave as they should. It's now 850 AD and so far I have kept Japan, who had by far the best territory, totally isolated by refusing to sell contacts.

Jaybe · July 6, 2002, 05:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
What effect have you noticed with that setting? Less trading? Almost no trading?

-=Vel=-

The 120 setting seemed to work well, overall, but this is my FIRST 1.21 game.

The usual game of catch-up once I made contact with 'the new world.' The vassal state strategy on my continent did not work well on my continent research-wise as no-one had contact with the unknown civs until I repeatedly sent my galley's out and finally met someone. The vassals (Haiawatha & Abe) have been 'absorbed'. The Iroquois just had to go when my only coal source quickly ran out and they had one.

This is my most dominating game I have yet played. Will win culturally if I ever make it to 100,000 culture points. Right now its the year 1760, I have about 46,000 culture points, Infantry has been around for awhile and I just got tanks.

SpencerH · July 6, 2002, 07:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis

If you see the AI moving its galleys over water, it is because they have the techs which allow them to do so (like Navigation or Magnetism). Works the same for the human.

I saw their galleys moving across the middle of the sea/ocean without loss long before navigation. They may have had the lighthouse though. I forgot that it gives +1 movement and the ability to move at sea.

SpencerH · July 6, 2002, 08:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Ribannah
Spence, most likely one of the AI tribes built the Lighthouse.
That's what I did myself in my GOTM9 game, and the AI galleys behave as they should. It's now 850 AD and so far I have kept Japan, who had by far the best territory, totally isolated by refusing to sell contacts.

I guess that explains it. I went for literature/republic and ended up so far behind that I havent got a single wonder despite having one city constantly building the palace (ready to switch). I guess if I had read the game setup I might have deduced that early contact would be important. Instead, I focussed on city building since I expected an early land war (and horses).

Venger · July 6, 2002, 08:54

Quote:

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64
are you playing the current patch? i've noticed that tech whoring is reduced somewhat in 1.21. Also, I eliminated communications trading until the middle ages, therefore, the AIs cant trade wildly with each other until they've actually made contact.

How did you eliminate contact trading until the middle ages? I don't see where that is in the editor...

Venger

Venger · July 6, 2002, 09:14

I lowered the AI trading rates to increment only by five after chieftain, and also reduced some of the ridiculous AI bonuses at the highest three levels (8 defensive and 4 offensive start units per AI on Deity? Give me an f'in break, I'd rather not get conquered before I start my first city). So on Deity, the AI-AI rate is only 125.

Not sure if it's working, the AI is still tech-whore quite a bit, I mean it's clear it discounts it against the AI - tiny Civs are getting far more advanced techs than their size allows due to limited rate. But I'm at least almost caught up in the industrial age. It's nearly impossible to get a lead early without extensively buying tech - which I'm sure is the strategy most use. But to me, that's dull - what's the point in researching when it's so easy to buy them? I'm trying to make your research and your research choices sort of matter.

Any other tips? I'm actually playing Civ3 and enjoying it (mostly) for the first time (enjoying it that is). Have doubled hit points and adjusted some A/D values (still work to do, but combat is far more palatable with the changes, less flukey man bites dog results), added resources (spices up the game alot), reduced corruption to a level that allows you to enjoy the game but still have to put in barracks, courthouses, and police stations to truly eliminate it, and added units that don't require resources (Swordsman is 2/2, no resources, Iron Swordsman is 3/2 with iron, there are now FOUR tanks - Tank, Improved Tank, Main Battle Tank, and Modern Armor, Infantry is 8/8, Heavy Infantry requires rubber and is 10/10, etc etc.). Adding the units that don't require resources as slightly weaker variants REALLY changes the aspect of the game and resources, turning them resources from gamebreakers (I mean come on, you have to have RUBBER to make infantry?) into what they really should be - something that can give you a slight but important advantage.

Still alot more tweaking to go, but I think I've fixed Civ3!!! May consider releasing YET ANOTHER mod pack, probably won't because figuring out how to do it will be way too hard to figure out...

Venger

SpencerH · July 6, 2002, 09:52

Venger,

The only problem with making all these mods is we expect the next patch to be out soon which usually renders the exisiting mods useless and all the changes to the editor have to be redone.

BTW it wasnt the lighthouse allowing the galleys to travel the ocean. The aztecs have the lighthouse while everyone elses galleys also travel the ocean. Could it be an edited mod that would be included in the bic file?

Venger · July 6, 2002, 11:32

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Venger,

The only problem with making all these mods is we expect the next patch to be out soon which usually renders the exisiting mods useless and all the changes to the editor have to be redone.

I know, but I kept waiting for the patch - and I'm still waiting! I finally got a bug to play a Civ game, and I needed to take advantage of it before I threw Civ3 in the dustbin for good. I'm glad I didn't, because it's STARTING to improve (with alot of hard work).

I figure I can cut my teeth on 1.21f, and then transfer the units and concepts to the new (and hopefully last) patch.

Quote:

BTW it wasnt the lighthouse allowing the galleys to travel the ocean. The aztecs have the lighthouse while everyone elses galleys also travel the ocean. Could it be an edited mod that would be included in the bic file?

I've been able to get almost across the ocean before in a galley before it sank - I want to say it sunk at the end of it's third turn at sea.

I'd understand adding one to every sea craft in the game to enhance the very weak naval game.

Venger

reefer addict · July 6, 2002, 11:33

one thing ive done is set the ai trade leval to 100 and then boosted ai production to 70/100. this way the ai doesnt trade everything for nothing but still can research fast enough to make the game competitive. you can do this on any leval you like to get the scores you want, in my games, monarch is the modded leval and if i want to watch the ai gangbang me on tech i just play a regular emperor game. its fun to see the ai have to research what they want instead of getting everything for a useless worldmap while they try to charge me an arm and a leg.

Venger · July 6, 2002, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by reefer addict
if i want to watch the ai gangbang me

Giggle.

Quote:

on tech i just play a regular emperor game. its fun to see the ai have to research what they want instead of getting everything for a useless worldmap while they try to charge me an arm and a leg.

I concur - it's ridiculous. The point of having multiple civilizations is to have the feel of playing against 12 other distinct civilizations, not to simply add another participant to the gang rape of the human player... I'll give the AI a bonus to help it succeed as an INDIVIDUAL civilization - but not empower it to congeal into the AI as 'all non-human Civs', which Civ3 tends to do...

Venger

SpencerH · July 6, 2002, 13:16

In one of my mods, spearmen were a basic unit that didnt require a resource. I used copper as a strategic resource which gave bronze spearman while iron gave iron spearman, same idea for swordsmen. Copper was also needed for the modern weapons systems. The mod worked out ok (including the tech changes) and the AI seemed to incorporate the changes OK but then 1.21 came out and I didnt update it. Maybe I will with the new editor and PtW.

Soren Johnson · July 6, 2002, 14:18

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
Venger,

The only problem with making all these mods is we expect the next patch to be out soon which usually renders the exisiting mods useless and all the changes to the editor have to be redone.

BTW it wasnt the lighthouse allowing the galleys to travel the ocean. The aztecs have the lighthouse while everyone elses galleys also travel the ocean. Could it be an edited mod that would be included in the bic file?

I can only assume it is the mod because the game code for sinking ships makes no distinction between the AI and the human. Indeed, this gives an advantage to the human as the AI won't even try to sail across the ocean unless it will be safe whereas the human can make a specific choice to take that risk.

Solver · July 6, 2002, 14:22

Soren - are you saying the AI never tries to pass squares if it's at the risk of sinking? I'm almost sure I saw the AI pass Sea squares with Galleys...

Soren Johnson · July 6, 2002, 14:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Solver
Soren - are you saying the AI never tries to pass squares if it's at the risk of sinking? I'm almost sure I saw the AI pass Sea squares with Galleys...

well, the AI will certainly go through sea squares if it can get to a safe square by the end of its turn...

Ribannah · July 6, 2002, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
The aztecs have the lighthouse while everyone elses galleys also travel the ocean. Could it be an edited mod that would be included in the bic file?

Er ... red is Japan in my GOTM 9 game, not the Aztecs.

SpencerH · July 6, 2002, 21:30

Thats right, its a Japanese galley sitting still for one turn in the middle of the ocean. My point was that the lighthouse might explain Aztec sea travel but not any ocean going galleys by any civ. I'm now up to 1420 or so and galleys continue to blithely sail the oceans blue without my witnessing a single AI loss (despite my following them across).

notyoueither · July 6, 2002, 22:29

Spencer, you have galleons. Do the Japanese not have Navigation or Magnetism? Is it possible the game you are playing was modded, or corrupted when downloaded?

I've played several games on Earth maps on the west coast of North America. I watch all game long as the AI from South American civs go up to Alaska, over to Russia and then down to the islands and Australia. One goes by heading north, a while later a city of the appropriate civ pops up in the South Pacific. A while later the galley comes by on it's way back south from Alaska. Then once all is settled, they keep milling back and forth, following the coast. All game long, until they get the required tech to go direct that is.

I've also played games where I built the Lighthouse. Never saw an AI galley with my exploring gallies (man, is that map valuable).

Why can't I have some of these bugs?