ship designs in mid and late game

[Kaptain Ken]

When you defeat the Guardian it is one of the possible techs that you gain, almost a 50% chance, 3 of 7 plus Death Ray on IBM comp Machines or 4 of 8 on Apple OS.
You can also get it by capturing and scrapping their ships from raids.

[mufa]

Originally posted by Kaptain Ken
You can also get it by capturing and scrapping their ships from raids.

And how do I scrap a captured ship ?

[vmxa1]

Only two ways to get it legitametly 1) orion 2) capture antarian ship and scrap it and get lucky.
I almost never have it and do not use it when I do.
The special DS with all the goodies is not something I do in a regular game.

UR I still play Moo1 nearly every week. Only time I do not get in a Moo1 game is if I am in the middle of an RPG. That sometimes uses up all my time for that week, and if I get in any other game with it , good Moo1 for that week.
What is you game setting and race. Of course I play Klacs most of the time.
I have been doing Small maps at impossible wiht 4 players lately.

[Kaptain Ken]

mufa,

Take it to a planet where you have at least a starbase, then using the fleet screen, highlight the ship and the scrap button will be activated. You will get a random number of techs between 0-3 IIRC.

[bakalov]

Yes, this is also the key to get all of the eight antarian techs - even the smallest antarian ships have the first four (damper field, particle beam, quantum detonator, xentronium armor) and after having these four from scrapping, capture Orion to get the other four.

[Whoha]

in addition, you can get wide area jammers,fighter bays, the best computer, and other goodies from the antarans.

[Kaptain Ken]

Nice to see people still reading these threads, thanks for the bump guys. There is a lot of good info in these threads.

[The Mad Monk]

Yeah, this is a great thread.

[bakalov]

Yes, the "Sustom race - best stats" is the other good one

[Aabraxan]

OK. I've been able to figure out most of the abbreviations used in this and other threads, but what is "IIRC?"

[Garth Vader]

If I remember correctly

[Aabraxan]

It seems that most of the experienced players here move to almost exclusively beam weapons towards the end of the game. I've always kept a few of my best missiles on my warships, battleships and titans, even late in the game. This may be utterly ineffective in MP games, but it forces the other side to choose between shooting down my rockets or getting slammed by the rockets. Also allows me to use forward-firing beam weapons & still send something to chase down ships that get behind me. Also allows my beam weapons to concentrate on killing the other side's fleet, while sending the missiles at planetary defenses (starbase, missile base, etc.). Also, I get tired of the Antarans' reflector fields (term?) bouncing my beams back at me.

Speaking of the Antarans, I see a lot of talk about capturing one, but I've never been able to do that. If my ships are powerful enough to stand up to the Antarans, I usually end up just destroying their ships. I'd sure like to capture a couple for tech. Any tips here?

My usual game is impossible, huge, 8, average age, average tech (hard level while I'm experimenting with new race picks & ship designs, which I'm currently doing). Ship design is currently in flux, as I'm experimenting with heavy mount, shield piercing, autofire phasors (but I may drop shield piercing to save space in one of my current games (AI races don't have great shields & Antarans don't use 'em at all)). Traditionally, my ship design, when I have all the techs I like, looked like this:

Battlepods
Heavy Armor
Reinforced Hull
Augmented Engines
Battle Scanner
Structural Analyzer
High energy focus
Achilles Targeting Unit

(Many) plasma cannons or disruptors
(3-5) x5 best missiles

As I said, I'm currently experimenting different ship designs, including damper fields, a different missile setup (several more x2 packs, mirvs, etc), and inertial stabilizers/nullifiers.

Also, from mid- to late game, I like to refit several smaller ships to send out as a harassment fleet. Its sole purpose is to go out, destroy ships & star bases, avoid dying, if possible, and run. If I capture enemy ships that don't have tech that I want, they just join the harassment fleet.

[P-K]

Ship about u wrote in ur post GameGeek at ( i assume ) very high level techs would die in turn ONE of battle. By that time beamers are most uneffective ships of whole game.

PK

[vmxa1]

P-K I am sorry, but I could not follow what you were pointing out. Were you saying beams are not good in mid to late game?

Anyway in SP games you have no need of missile by the time you get a decent computer. Missiles become too slow as the game pogresses for ship to ship and I don't need them for planets either.

Phasors are great and the use of AP mod is a function of what you expect to face. Normally I would rather just have more guns than more mods. Autofire is one I use.

I never use Plasma Cannons any more, I go with phasors and then disrupters.

The augmented engines is not needed in SP as you will be the attacker and go first anyway. The HV mount lets you hit from the starting location.

SA I don't use, but it is fine. I just do not see any need for many specials in a BB. Same with ATU. I don't need it.

Since the AI is not going to kill any or rarely any of my ships, I do not need to have missiles. This could make it harder for me to destroy their ships in the first round.

There are whole article about capturing ships for techs, I just don't bother with. I don't need the tech and will not use it if I get, excep for X armor.

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by P-K
Ship about u wrote in ur post GameGeek at ( i assume ) very high level techs would die in turn ONE of battle. By that time beamers are most uneffective ships of whole game.

PK

It's a design that has fared decently against all AI opponents, excepting the Antarans. My tactic has generally been to build lots of general purpose assault ships, capable of ship to ship combat or planetary assault. As I said, I'm currently experimenting with ship designs. Suggestions? If beamers are the least effective ships of the game at high tech levels, what are the most effective? Do you, or others on this board, build fleets of a variety of specialty ships, or, as I've done, lots of general purpose ships?

[P-K]

SP games vxma .... sp games! Mindless AI ships with their horrible designs... no further comment needed about AI playin.

Humans are different. Its possible to build ships so effective that battle will be won or lost in turn ONE. And those ships dont have almoust any beams.

PK

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Phasors are great and the use of AP mod is a function of what you expect to face. Normally I would rather just have more guns than more mods. Autofire is one I use.

I never use Plasma Cannons any more, I go with phasors and then disrupters.

The augmented engines is not needed in SP as you will be the attacker and go first anyway. The HV mount lets you hit from the starting location.

I didn't use phasors for a long time, just skipped straight from graviton to plasma cannons. I never used heavy mount plasma cannons, because I wanted to be able to target missiles or interceptors if the need arose. So augmented engines was my (somewhat crude) solution to the range dissipation problem that PCs have.


[I edited this post. I'm beginning to see a huge difference between regular mount phasors, which I never liked, and heavy mount phasors.]

[Garth Vader]

I generally have heavy mount beams, a few regular mount, and some PD mount. This way I get the benefit of the range and power of the heavies, but can still shoot down missiles and fighters.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by P-K
SP games vxma .... sp games! Mindless AI ships with their horrible designs... no further comment needed about AI playin.

Humans are different. Its possible to build ships so effective that battle will be won or lost in turn ONE. And those ships dont have almoust any beams.

PK

He is not playing MP, so who cares about it right now? You keep giving MP advice to a player that has never played a single game of it?

Much of it is not applicable to SP, which is what he is playing.

[vmxa1]

GameGeek forget about shooting down missiles, the are not a concern. At first combat you wil not ave enough tech to do much with missiles. This means either you shoot and scoot or stay and take the damage.

By the time you get phasors, you do not worry much about missiles either. You bust the fleet/planet before it can hurt you.

I may stick in a few PD beams with the left over space at that stage or just before it, but when I get disrupters, I no longer care about what they have for weapons. I am going to dust them with no damage or so little as to not be noticed.

[Zoetrope]

Regarding PK's comments:

(1) In the late game, battles are decided in the first round regardless.

(2) It's unlikely that an MP game would last to high tech levels. If it's not over by the time Gauss Cannons are in play, then everyone's been holding back.

(3) There were some ship design tests back in the days of Antares. (See my website at ftp.sff.net:/pub/people/zoetrope/MOO2/.) The best performing ships in one-on-one combat at the highest non-Advanced tech level used Gauss Cannon, Phasor, Missile, or Capture designs. The battles were very close.

(4) I'm intrigued to know just one of PK's superior ship models at the alt-Einstein level, or at any other nominated tech level.

With respect to the initiative question:

(1) I use version 1.31 exclusively.

(2) Individual Ship Initiative makes ship design more important (and even gives the AI a chance to do some damage as its turns and mine are often interleaved.)

[Aabraxan]

Zoetrope,
I'm on version 1.3, so there's no initiative, as far as I've been able to tell. My new ship designs are, as I'm discovering, much more effective thatn the old ones. Thanks to you, vxma, and others for the tips.

[vmxa1]

Init was added in 1.31

[P-K]

To finish enemy in first strike u need two separate designs :
1. hyper drive bb with eug engines and bscanner and 4 tractors at plasma rifle miniaturization plus some serveral pd mass drv and no or c3 shields. Pds will stop emgs, shield will stop raiders from transporter ships but this is not important much cos all u need is attack before enemy will. Moving at 27/8 speed bb will reach enemy in first move - run tractors and raid. If troopers have same battle bonus, raid will succed in 80%.
2. anti matter bb with same tractors/stuff and teleporter. Tele will give u 20 free fields and bb will move also very fast.

To sum up u dont need einstein codes to build super ships. I think about 3rd design :
3. anti drv bb with emg merc at neutronium armor level. stuff simmilar to above. However im not sure if this ship would match the speed of tractor raider and overrun his pd defences. Its also risky when enemy has good shields and many pds.

PK

[GTPoompt]

and what do you guys use for mid game in SP.
I find that in SP late game ship design doesn't really matter that much becuase the AI is so horrible at it you get an advantage there. (i play hard btw)

I run into trouble in the post-missle boat era. i usually just toss in whatever beams and some other crap and just play suck up to the computer until i can hurry up and get phasors and or plasma cannons.

A simple beam ship with just a ton of plasma cannons + battle scanner etc etc works pretty well.

Although I once did experiment with anti-matter missles and they weren't so bad. they got a bit bettter when i could get enveloping on them, but by then there were much better choices. Gauss cannons seem pretty good too with AP.

[vmxa1]

First I always take Class V shields over gauss cannons. The first shift to beams could be any of several of the earliest ones, but likely I will use Mass Driver with a few mods and any left over can be put in as Mass Driver PD's.

Chances are good that I will stick with those untill I get Phasors. You can often see the Mass Drivers doing more damage at the point where you get Phasors, due to the miniturization and mods.

I will have my best armor and shields and engine, plus computer. Specials will be Reenforced Hulls/Battle Scanner/Interial Stabilizer. Later I will add the HEF. This is for battleships. Should I every get titans, I will add a few more specials.

I just do not want to put more specials in a BB as I need the space for the guns. They will all have HV, except PD ones. All will face forward only.

This build holds up till I get Disrupters. Then I switch to those, but change nothing else. That is the final design for the game.

I only build BB's, unless I am a tele or someone attacks early and I have to use a missile ship. Very late in the game, if get Dooms, I may make one with stellar to destroy planets, so I do not have to come back over and over to bust a race or colonize it.

[Aabraxan]

GTPoompt,
I seem to run into exactly the opposite problem. I'm usually OK if I can get to plasma cannons. (And I'm trying to break the PC habit by using phasors). By that time, I can usually produce enough ships to bludgeon my (AI) opponents into submission. I'm trying to trim down my fleets, improve my strategies, and make for faster wins. The ship design I posted above has traditionally started as early in the game as possible, simply adding specials as I got them. Usually started with reinforced hulls, battle scanners, and mass drivers. Those ships played defense until I could get graviton beams, at which point I refitted.

Last night, however, I had to go to war much earlier than I like, because I was pinned into a corner by the Klackons, who seemed perfectly happy to begin colonizing in my systems. (Hard, huge, advanced tech, average, age, 8 players). I had to go to war with 2 battleships, 1 cruiser, and 4 transports. Yikes!

IIRC, my BBs were outfitted with
Zort armor
Class I shield
Reinforced hull
Electronic computer (& not a ship leader to be found)
Heavy, env fusion beams
Heavy, autofire lasers (may have also been armor piercing?)
1x2 fast nukes
2x2 mirv nukes
2x2 mirv nukes

The cruiser had Class I shield, reinforced hull, and heavy env fusion beams.

Got my *** handed to me by the Klackons who, somehow, had come up with Class III shields, zort armor, pulsars and ion cannons. There are some posts in here that advise taking mass drivers over Class I shields. I guess I shoulda taken that advice, I guess. I could barely take down a star base, much less a starbase protected by any sort of sizable fleet. My only complaint about mass drivers is that, IIRC, they're useless against a planet with a radiation shield. If I'm wrong about this, someone please correct me.

Anyway, back to the drawing board, I guess . . .

[vmxa1]

Beams of any flavor will be very poor if you only EC for a computer. This is one reason to avoid major conflicts until you get a better computer.

Steal it, if you can. I have to skip Positronic for Super Comps. I have to skip Cybertronic for Autolabs. So Molecular is my first new computer in most games.

If I can't steal one before then, I will have problems with beams. I played a game that was posted here a few days ago, where I was Charismatic and got the top scientist. One came with autolabs, so I could research Cyber.

[Aabraxan]

Yeah, part of my problem is that I always played Creative races for a long time. Now I'm tired of spending the 8 points for Creative and am having to figure out which techs to choose in each level.

[GTPoompt]

See the problem i run into is that missles are just too slow and alot of them get shot down because the computer seems to use lots of PD beams

vxma1: do you usually research mass driver? I usually take class 1 shield but i suppose the computer usually goes for MD so its easy to steal.

IMO i usually would go for cybertronic comps over autolab. Autolab is nice but i end up not building that many autolabs later on in the game. Also, I usually play 6 race hard large so usually someone gets autolabs, i'll either trade for it (i usually don't play rep) or steal. Especially nice when theres a psilon.

You guys take the graviton beam or planet grav gen.

As for a fun game, i remember building a lot of smaller ships and using sub tele and mauler devices and 0Bpods. . heh, that didn't last for long

However, I have noticed the effectiveness from the AI with the heavy fighters. (2 PD beams and 2 bombs). The AI always seems to have good bomb tech for some reason, i never waste my time and just blast the planets with lasers. But its shared with another very good tech.

Quick Question: Is there any way to set what attributes the computer gets? I would like to play a game where EVERYONE is uncreative and repulsive (double )