Apolyton University

[Konquest02]

Is AU dead ? Does anyone want to go on with AU-104, whichever project it is ? It was a great idea, I would not like to see it getting abandonned.

--Kon--

[Theseus]

It's only been a couple of weeks!!

Sorry... I guess I'm keeper of the flame, and I've had an unusually busy August.

I had thought that the "banana" game that Sir Ralph built might be a fun challenage, but I won't have time to check it out till the middle of the week (actually, I haven;t even finished 103 yet, having been distracted by 1337).

Bear with us... AU104 will be great, whatever we end up doing.

[vulture]

EDIT: Vulture, being a dozy bugger with the awareness of half a lemon, wrote some irrelevant stuff which he has now deleted.

[Gastric ReFlux]

I would like to suggest that AU uses an Always War game for its curriculum. It's a game that would be diamertrically opposed to the Hippie Sam variant, and it can teach a player a lot about how to conduct war.

For reference, I would suggest looking at the Zeaous Zulu succession game played at Civ Fanatics, and the recent epic played at www. realmsbeyond.net

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by Theseus
It's only been a couple of weeks!!

Sorry... I guess I'm keeper of the flame, and I've had an unusually busy August.

I had thought that the "banana" game that Sir Ralph built might be a fun challenage, but I won't have time to check it out till the middle of the week (actually, I haven;t even finished 103 yet, having been distracted by 1337).

Bear with us... AU104 will be great, whatever we end up doing.

It's ok... I was just wondering why the discussion stopped on 103. I got wiped from the map pretty early so I did not start over again...

I haven't looked the banana game: I will later tonight!!

--Kon--

[Theseus]

OK, long weekend is here, wrapped mucho work, fiancee is visiting her dad...

Time for the next course!!!

In thinking over the discussions of the last couple of weeks, and the few group games that have been played, I'd like to suggest that we take the intensity and the specialty nature of this game down a notch.

And I'd really like to get some of the newer players / posters in on it...

Looking at the original ideas, this might be the most educational game of the bunch:

Originally posted by Theseus
5. The Golden Age

Goals: Maximize your GA... show how your GA leads to the win. Both military and GW triggers allowed (and encouraged). Not quite a gold star, but GAs with the IW in place are to be admired.

Settings: "Standard" across the board. Standard, continents, 70% water, 8 civs, normal, temperate, 4B, roaming, Monarch. All win types.

Civ: Zulu

Notes: This should be interesting, given the many different philosophies. I might even play it twice.

Ignore Zulu... Catt at the time pointed out that the Impi is basically unavoidable in the unit path. He suggested Egypt, which I like as well, especially for newer players (most flexible) and for the whole concept of this course (again, most flexible).

I'd also like to suggest a third thread beyond spoilers - tips and advice for the newer players. Combination of specific Q&A, and maybe some more experienced commentary on things to watch out for, especially early in the game. This would especially be helpful for those who have not yet played many or any Monarch-level games.

I'd also suggest that we again have stock and AU Mod versions as alternatives.

Thoughts?

[alexman]

Sounds good!

The GA (Golden Age ) goal is a bit vague, because you can make an argument that every GA can lead to a win unless the outcome is already decided. But that's OK. It will be a nice standard game, with lots of possible paths to victory.

Besides having AU Mod and stock, I suggest that we have several difficulty levels as well, just as SR did for the banana game.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Theseus
I'd also like to suggest a third thread beyond spoilers - tips and advice for the newer players. Combination of specific Q&A, and maybe some more experienced commentary on things to watch out for, especially early in the game. This would especially be helpful for those who have not yet played many or any Monarch-level games.

Good idea. I actually captured a couple of things from Banana Isle that I think are instructive - still trying to parse the screenshots together in an intelligible way with my crappy graphics programs.

Originally posted by alexman
Besides having AU Mod and stock, I suggest that we have several difficulty levels as well, just as SR did for the banana game.

Also a good idea. Unless someone has a compelling reason to be the mapmaker (a honeymooner?) I'll volunteer. I don't expect to have a whole lot of playing time over both the weekend and the next week or so.

Catt

[Theseus]

I like that the GA is still sort of a vague thing to us... maybe this will help bring out some subtleties.

For instance, it's pretty clear in Banana Isle that those who built the Colossus capitalized TREMENDOUSLY on their GA. And when you think about it... OMG, could that be the secret advantage??!! Wait, gotta check...

Uh, no. England would qualify too... man that would have been sneaky brilliant though.

Anyway, OTHER than the Colossus, given the separation of islands, what other way to trigger such an early GA, and thus build the GL?

Anyway, I think it'll be a good all-around learning game.

How do we get more people involved?

Regarding versions, maybe just Regent and Monarch? Too wide a difficulty spread will obfuscate the impact of the GA, I think.

[alexman]

I don't think I will have time to play this one, so I would be happy to make the map. It won't be a heavily modified map anyway, so the game doesn't lose its 'standard' flavor.

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by Theseus

For instance, it's pretty clear in Banana Isle that those who built the Colossus capitalized TREMENDOUSLY on their GA. And when you think about it... OMG, could that be the secret advantage??!! Wait, gotta check...

Uh, no. England would qualify too... man that would have been sneaky brilliant though.

****** BANANA SPOILER AHEAD ***********

I think our secret advantage was the predictability of the map and our ability to guess where the other islands were...

That was kind of OT, so... let's discuss it more in the appropriate thread...

****** END OF BANANA SPOILER ***********


I'll play this AU for sure. The third thread is a great idea, along with the different difficulty levels. Once I'll learn to make good screenshots (practicing on the Banana), I might become one of AU's most attentive student (not teacher though... !!)

--Kon--

[Theseus]

Kon, I think that's the best guess so far, seriously.

Can't wait for SR to get back and let us know the 'secret.'

(but I think you're right)

I'm looking forward to the third thread... whereas necessity is the mother of invention, I think desperation is the father of innovation.

[Catt]

******** Banana Spoiler ************

Originally posted by Konquest02

I think our secret advantage was the predictability of the map and our ability to guess where the other islands were...

I was pretty sure it was the ability to risk the high seas (when the AI couldn't) until I read this - but I agree with Theseus - yours is the best guess so far.

In the meantime, I predict that SR will get back from a few weeks in the Mediterranean Sun and have absolutely no friggin' memory of any supposed "mini-advantage" . . .

[Catt]

Originally posted by alexman
I don't think I will have time to play this one, so I would be happy to make the map. It won't be a heavily modified map anyway, so the game doesn't lose its 'standard' flavor.

I yield to alexman on the map making chore.

And yet I am growing concerned about his dedication to this game - first no laptop on the honeymoon and now deferring to wedding preparations, rehearsal dinners, and bachelor parties at the expense of game time.

[vrek]

Hey, Sorry I don't post much(this might even be my first post) but I am very interested in this University thing but where are the acturally games? I see all the discussions here but there is no games or anything? Am I missing something?
The other thing is once PTW comes outme and my one friend are planning a all-out duel as he can dominate me(I found this out in a 13 hour straight game ending with me getting a massive nucular sneak attack in 1930 AD) in Civ2 but I outrank him in experience on Civ3. I was wondering if anyone would object to using one of these maps for the game?
Also one other thing(sorry to keep bringing up new stuff) but on the Culture one is it more a challenge expansionist and scientific race? I know the Libraries and all are good for culture but 2 cities with temples will create more culture then 1 city getting a library twice as fast in the long run. Any ideas or am I just that tired(its 3:09 AM)?

Sincerly,
Ray Koons

[alexman]

Originally posted by Catt

And yet I am growing concerned about his dedication to this game - first no laptop on the honeymoon and now deferring to wedding preparations, rehearsal dinners, and bachelor parties at the expense of game time.

Catt, I don't know how to thank you! I will print out your post and make sure my fiance sees it. It should buy me at least a couple of days of guilt-free civing!

Ray, search this strategy forum and you will find the games. Actually, let me do it for you:

AU 101: Crowding and War
AU 102: All we're sayin' is give peace a chance
AU 103: Island hopping
The Tale of Banana Island
AU 105: The Power of Gold

Some of these threads have spoilers and some don't.

[Theseus]

OK, kids, time to start cooking up AU 107!!

An "always war" game has been suggested, and I think that's a might fine idea.

In light of the recent tweaks to the AU Mod (btw, is the FAQ up to date?), I suggest the following:

Aztecs
Large, continents, 80% water
Temperate, normal, 3B
12 civs
Raging barbs

What I envision is 2-3 continents, chock full of civs (I would suggest pangaea, but the AU Mod's naval improvements are so good I hate the idea of not bypassing them).

The mapmaker should get rid of some of the strategic resources, just to make things interesting, as well as set up whatever evil traps and surprises come to mind.

Difficulty: Not sure. This one should definitely be done as a scenario.

Significant objectives (other than survival): Use every unit? Demonstrate great tactics? Remember, this game will be very much about your own empire's performance, especially in tech.

Thoughts?

[alexman]

One good objective could be to demonstrate the AI silliness by using as many "dirty tricks" as possible.

(yes, the AU mod should be up-to-date with the readme)

[Catt]

I'm in the midst of a game I just began a day or so ago, so I may be late to the AU 107 party -- so, in other words, take my comments with a healty grain of salt.

Even with the fewer than standard number of civs on the AU 106 large map, my comp was really bogging down as I exited the industrial age (without war!). Of course I need a better laptop, that is a given -- but it gets harder and harder to start a large (or huge) map game without a little inward cringe. Standard map would be more welcome from my perspective.

Catt

EDIT: Changed reference from "ancient age" to corrected "industrial age."

[Theseus]

The problem is that I would want 'always war' to be with more than 8 civs.

How about Standard, 80% water, and 10 civs? (we can do that somehow, right?)

[Konquest02]

I like these settings Theseus... I also dropped AU 107 because of the large map. it was almost unplayable in the modern age .

The main goals of this one would be to survive and to play the whole game without razing (or abandonning...) one single enemy city. This would probably trigger a domination victory. Can you win by conquest before triggering a domination victory?

--Kon--

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Konquest02
I like these settings Theseus... I also dropped AU 107 because of the large map. it was almost unplayable in the modern age .

The main goals of this one would be to survive and to play the whole game without razing (or abandonning...) one single enemy city. This would probably trigger a domination victory. Can you win by conquest before triggering a domination victory?

--Kon--

I actually did win one game by conquest before triggering domination without razing or abandoning any cities (not counting auto-razed size one towns, of course). So it's definitely possible on the right map under the right circumstances.

On the other hand, I definitely don't like the idea of making that an official goal. In order to achieve such a victory, it is necessary to limit building of cultural improvements in conquered cities. But doing things that deliberately undercut my own nation takes away a lot of the fun of the "role playing" aspect of the game for me. The game I mentioned above was a special case where (1) I did most of my conquering over a relatively short period of time using cavalry and (2) my palace and forbidden palace were too close together to give me as many productive cities as usual. So for that single game, I could win a conquest victory before domination without razing or abandoning and without going much out of my way to hold back on building cultural improvements.

Nathan

P.S. I'll probably play the CivFanatics GOTM before this one (and might get sidetracked completely if the next AU game is out by then, since "always war" isn't my all-time favorite scenario). And I haven't quite made my victory in the AU 106 game official yet, for that matter.

[Konquest02]

Always war need to be clarified. Do you need to be always on war we meet or we can only have one war going on (i.e. as soon as you finish this one, you need to start another one).
I played a small game with the first rules (tiny pangea 60% water) and got anihilated by a coalition of al the other civs. I had no trade going on, was way behind in tech and although I had 7 spices, I could not trade any of them.
Personnally, I'd go for the other rules. We may consider it as an extreme oscillating war strategy, which is good

I'm not too fond of the Aztecs, maybe because of their ultra early UU. They're good, but get obsolete rather fast. They also generate an immediate GA, which is not really appropriate for this kind of game... But you definetly love their traits!

To the map maker, it would be interresting to see how the AI manages chokepoints and how the human can gain advantages of them. A continents map, as Theseus suggested, is the perfect setting for such chokepoints.

--Kon--

[nbarclay]

By the way, I think I remember someone talking about the idea of an "always war" game where you have to always be at war with everyone. Do we have it clearly defined whether "always war" in this game means "always at war with at least one civ" or "always at war with everybody"?

Nathan

Edit: Looks like Konquest02 beat me to the question by a minute or so. My preference would also be "always at war with at least once civ", possibly with the additional provision that wars with small, mostly dead civs don't count unless you're actively in the process of finishing them off.

[Catt]

We may have a consensus to defer "Always War" to AU 108 and instead substitute a "Son of So Very Cold . . ."

I started an all random game, standard map, and got a start not unlike Aeson's. I didn't propose it as an AU game because I think a lot of people don't like such grim starts. I am in the process (literally, on my desktop as I type this on my laptop) of downloading Gramphos' MultiTool to see if I can extract my Son of SVC map to the editor, save it as a scenarion, and allow everyone to pick their own difficulty level -- my game was Emperor, and that may turn some people off, especially given the challenging conditions.

On "Always War," I believe we discussed adopting the rules employed in a CFC succession game which were essentially: on the turn that you meet a new civ, you can engage in diplomacy and trading (but no per turn deals) but must exit diplomacy with a declaration of war. No peace treaty ever. Win however you want, and raze or keep cities as you like. Essentially it means war with every known civ for the entire game, from the very point that you meet the civ.

I like the Aztecs as a choice -- militaristic and religious with an ultra-early GA and a mobile, early attacker. Though I can;t fathom why people dislike the choice of the English (commercial, expansionist, suxky UU) as a great civ. I mean really, get those scouts out and start war very early .

J/K of course about the English. I would vote Aztecs, and I would vote standard map with 10 cramped civs rather than large map.

Catt

[Theseus]

I'm gettin' all excited here...

If you all remember, this type of game (i.e., SVC) was one of the originals proposed.

We can figure out AU 108 over the next several weeks... I stand by the concept of all war, all the time. It will provide some good lessons.

[Dominae]

This question is a little preemptive because we're postponing the "Always War" scenario for another couple of weeks, but here goes. Are you allowed not to speak with foreign emissaries? I'm not certain if I remember how it works, but it seems to me you could put off contacting another civ indefinitely by simply not speaking with their emissary. Thus, you wouldn't necessarily be at war with them (just neutral, I guess).

Catt, get us that "Son of SVC" (aka AU-107) game ASAP; I'm putting off starting any other games!

If no one is up for it (or it hasn't been claimed yet), I could set up the "Always War" scenario; I have a map that is just perfect for that type of game...


Dominae

[Catt]

I'm working on AU 107 this evening (California time) to make sure the starting locations & resources appear correctly.

Should be posted tonight. Will try and download the AU Mod (I read there are download difficulties?) so I can post the map with standard and modded rules.

I'm not sure you're all going to remain so excited when you play the opening 100 turns . . .

Catt

[Arrian]

Theseus, what do you think about that Japanese game of mine that you played for AU 108 always war? Played normally on Monarch it was a nice romp, but this is another beast. It might need a few tweaks, perhaps changing the human civ to whatever people want to play (I'd vote China), but the start spot is strong, and you have lots of neighbors, some of whom are quite dangerous.

Or do you think having 5 neighbors on the home continent (3 with ancient UUs) is too much?

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

I just came up with a thought for another AU game: "Overcrowding" - 16 civs on a standard map, maybe continents with 70% water. Early warfare would tend to play a much bigger role in such a game than it does normally. Opinions, anyone?

Nathan