Remove your forces or declare war NOW. (how do I get this option?)

RedBird · July 8, 2002, 21:49

What are the rules for when you get to force a decision vs. when you only get the option to *ask* them to leave?

I have a Roman Legionary sitting right next to one of my cities. I go into the diplomacy screen, and my only option is "Your forces are within our borders! Remove them NOW!" rather than the more forceful "Remove your forces or declare war." (something like that). What are the conditions for the more decisive option?

dexters · July 8, 2002, 22:05

You just get it. Embassy pre-requistive I think.

The funny thing is, you get the option too if the AI has no units in your territory. So you can play the insane recluse like North Korea's leader (what's his name?) and demand strange things and blame the US for your own military agression.

Thrawn05 · July 8, 2002, 22:12

Quote:

Originally posted by RedBird
What are the rules for when you get to force a decision vs. when you only get the option to *ask* them to leave?

I have a Roman Legionary sitting right next to one of my cities. I go into the diplomacy screen, and my only option is "Your forces are within our borders! Remove them NOW!" rather than the more forceful "Remove your forces or declare war." (something like that). What are the conditions for the more decisive option?

same unit 3 times in a row I think, or just 3 times in a row. Also when the unit is within the city radius.

GeneralTacticus · July 8, 2002, 22:20

Quote:

Originally posted by RedBird
What are the rules for when you get to force a decision vs. when you only get the option to *ask* them to leave?

I have a Roman Legionary sitting right next to one of my cities. I go into the diplomacy screen, and my only option is "Your forces are within our borders! Remove them NOW!" rather than the more forceful "Remove your forces or declare war." (something like that). What are the conditions for the more decisive option?

You get the option if the AI troops have moved next to your city, or if they have been repeatedly violating your territory (i.e., they move a unit or two across the border every turn and you order them out every turn).

EDIT: didn't read the question carefully enough. Maybe you only get the 'leave or war' option when the legionary is actually moving?

RedBird · July 8, 2002, 22:44

Quote:

Originally posted by dexters
You just get it. Embassy pre-requistive I think.

Nope, I just built an embassy, and I still don't have the "or declare war" version.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn05
same unit 3 times in a row I think, or just 3 times in a row. Also when the unit is within the city radius.

Nope and nope. I just tried it about five times in a row, still no "or declare war" version, and the unit is already not only inside the city radius, but in a square immediately adjacent to the city.

Quote:

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Maybe you only get the 'leave or war' option when the legionary is actually moving?

What do you mean by moving? He hasn't been sitting there, and he has a settler with him so I presume he's moving through. I have some unclaimed territory inside a cultural bubble, and they're crossing over me to get to that. I, of course, want to leave that land for my own settlers, but I don't have any handy right now.

Thrawn05 · July 8, 2002, 22:53

Quote:

Originally posted by RedBird
Nope and nope. I just tried it about five times in a row, still no "or declare war" version, and the unit is already not only inside the city radius, but in a square immediately adjacent to the city.

Are you sure you are using 1.21f? Because that shouldn't be.

RedBird · July 8, 2002, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn05

Are you sure you are using 1.21f? Because that shouldn't be.

Yes. 1.21f on the startup screen, and all the changes in the read-me are present in the game.

Which part "shouldn't be", asking three times, or being within the city radius?

GeneralTacticus · July 9, 2002, 01:00

Quote:

What do you mean by moving? He hasn't been sitting there, and he has a settler with him so I presume he's moving through. I have some unclaimed territory inside a cultural bubble, and they're crossing over me to get to that. I, of course, want to leave that land for my own settlers, but I don't have any handy right now.

In your first post you said he was sitting next to one of your cities, so I assumed he wasn't moving.

Todd Hawks · July 9, 2002, 01:31

You get this option when you do it several times in a row like Thrawn5 said (only once per turn!) or when the AI evidently violates your territory by bringing lots of troops at once.

I don't know the exact algorithm behind this but it's the same with your violations of AI territory. It takes several turns for the "declare war" message to pop up and if you put a lot of troops in the AI's territory at once you will get the message immediately (=on AI's turn).

The Pioneer · July 9, 2002, 01:41

Do you have a right of passge agreement with the AI? AFAIK you would be able to tell them to get out if you have one!

Fitz · July 9, 2002, 14:49

Are you right clicking and slecting the legionary as opposed to directly contacting the Romans?

Are you sure that you are "Contacting Roman Legionary" as opposed to "Contacting Roman Settler"?

AFAIK, Contacting a settler/worker never brings up the war version of this demand.

RedBird · July 9, 2002, 14:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Fitz
Are you right clicking and slecting the legionary as opposed to directly contacting the Romans?

Shift-D.

And (for The Pioneer) no Right-of-Passage.

PS: I'm still testing the "contact three times" theory. The problem is in three turns the units will have successfully traversed my territory. I'm trying to block them (peacefully) with my cultural borders.

Wittlich · July 9, 2002, 15:30

Move some of your units (they don't have to be strong - Warriors or even diplomats will do) to the "unclaimed land" inside your empire. If your units are guarding the open territory, the AI can't build there - but MAKE SURE you have ALL unclaimed land guarded. Then when your culture eventually does expand to encompass this territory, you can move your units away.

muxec · July 9, 2002, 15:47

I think that you need some (more than one) enemy battle unit on your territory.

Destroyer · July 9, 2002, 17:31

9 times out of 10 they will declare war anyway if you ask the mto move. The computer never can work out if 100 pikemen will beat 20mech infantry. This is a great way of declaring war yourself and staying clean.

A great way of getting an ai to cross your border is if there is a barbarian camp on the otherside. They will send their entire army to whack it.

late in the game this can be quite scarey if 200+ units stroll right across your land.

"Its alright mate, me and the other 15 million lads (in full battle gear) are just heading over to the otherside there, you dont mind really..."

Fitz · July 9, 2002, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by RedBird
Shift-D.

That's your problem right there. Right click on the offending unit and initiate contact through that unit.

dunk · July 10, 2002, 09:53

You should always have the option of asking nicely or demanding they leave. I hope this comes with the upcoming patch.

RedBird · July 10, 2002, 10:24

Quote:

Originally posted by dunk999
You should always have the option of asking nicely or demanding they leave. I hope this comes with the upcoming patch.

I would have to agree. Does anyone know the reason the developers restricted this? Personally, I hate this restriction (there was a similar thing in CivII also). I hate never really knowing if my diplomat is going to have the ability to deliver a very simply statement or not. Seems kind of silly.

BTW, it is looking like repeated requests to leave (over two or three turns) does eventually produce the "or declare war" version. I have yet to figure out for sure if enemy units need to be directly adjacent to the city, or simply in the radius for this repitition to have effect.

Quote:

Originally posted by Fitz
That's your problem right there. Right click on the offending unit and initiate contact through that unit.

I find it hard to believe this makes a difference. Both of them bring up the standard diplomacy screen. It's not like you're face to face with a mere general when you initiate diplomacy through the unit. You're still looking at the leader. What makes you think this makes a difference?

ALPHA WOLF 64 · July 10, 2002, 12:42

i've been under the impression that the AI doesnt consider an "escorting" unit in violation. No matter how often they say they will leave, they always continue towards their original destination.

RedBird · July 10, 2002, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64
i've been under the impression that the AI doesnt consider an "escorting" unit in violation. No matter how often they say they will leave, they always continue towards their original destination.

Well, I've successfully "corralled" units and blocked them, and I've also corralled them to my cities and then got the "or declare war" option, so they could be stopped (either they leave or declare war, and I kill them). I'd certainly agree though, that they are determined.

This tactic, however, seems silly to me. My diplomatic core is unable to say don't enter our lands, so I have to send workers out to stand in front of an approaching column??? I can't find a shred of realism in that. It seems like there should be more options. Something like "enter my cultural border and die".

But now I'm just ranting so I'll shut up.

Coracle · July 10, 2002, 19:45

Settler Diarrhea - the flood of settlers wandering into your territory and settling everywhere and anywhere - is one of the two or three must annoying aspects of the game.

It is UNACCEPTABLE when a braindead settler/soldier team marches into my territory (they do that even when at war showing how stupid the AI is), is ordered to leave, but keeps marching in, is ordered to leave a SECOND time, but keeps marching in. AND THEN, third time, it is "declare war or get out".

So what happens next? The settler/soldier team magically teleports itself to the OTHER side of my civ onto open tiles it should not even know exist and then sets up a town. It is ludicrous and infuriating. They should immediately leave by the same way they came in.

Since Firaxis refuses to fix this NONSENSE I will attack any settler in my territory after the first request. The hell with my rep; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway by the stupid cheating AI.

Wittlich · July 10, 2002, 20:38

I understand your anger Coracle!

Thrawn05 · July 10, 2002, 21:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Settler Diarrhea - the flood of settlers wandering into your territory and settling everywhere and anywhere - is one of the two or three must annoying aspects of the game.

It is UNACCEPTABLE when a braindead settler/soldier team marches into my territory (they do that even when at war showing how stupid the AI is), is ordered to leave, but keeps marching in, is ordered to leave a SECOND time, but keeps marching in. AND THEN, third time, it is "declare war or get out".

So what happens next? The settler/soldier team magically teleports itself to the OTHER side of my civ onto open tiles it should not even know exist and then sets up a town. It is ludicrous and infuriating. They should immediately leave by the same way they came in.

Since Firaxis refuses to fix this NONSENSE I will attack any settler in my territory after the first request. The hell with my rep; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway by the stupid cheating AI.

One thing I do, in the later part of the game, is to line my entire boarder with units to prevent them from entering.

Of course I do the same thing as you do, any enemy unit within my boarders and I'll destroy them and commit acts of genocides against the offending civ.

GeneralTacticus · July 10, 2002, 22:05

Quote:

So what happens next? The settler/soldier team magically teleports itself to the OTHER side of my civ onto open tiles it should not even know exist and then sets up a town. It is ludicrous and infuriating. They should immediately leave by the same way they came in.

Did you give your world map to the offending Civ? If you did, they have every right to know about some open ground on the other side of your Civ. Whether settling there is a good idea is another matter.

RedBird · July 10, 2002, 23:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Thrawn05
One thing I do, in the later part of the game, is to line my entire boarder with units to prevent them from entering.

I do this too, but it's completely unrealistic. That's like taking the Teamsters, and the United Auto workers, and saying, "Hey would you go stand over there on the Atlantic coast just to make sure someone doesn't land?"

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Since Firaxis refuses to fix this NONSENSE I will attack any settler in my territory after the first request. The hell with my rep; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway by the stupid cheating AI.

So basically, you take out your anger at Firaxis by beating on your game opponents?

MarkG · July 11, 2002, 04:52

yeap, is so damn annoying when the AI uses human tricks...

Hurricane · July 11, 2002, 08:47

If you have a big enough stack of units inside enemy territory (or the other way, the AI has lots of units inside your borders), you will get the "Remove or declare war" option. This has nothing to do with number of earlier violations or vicinity to cities.

The exact number of units required is still unresolved, AFAIK.

vondrack · July 11, 2002, 09:07

Hey, Coracle! Missed ya... it was so quiet here while you were banned...

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Settler Diarrhea - the flood of settlers wandering into your territory and settling everywhere and anywhere - is one of the two or three must annoying aspects of the game.

I must admit that in my first few games, I was also a bit embarrased by this "Settler Diarrhea". However, as my gaming skills improved, it was becoming less and less of a problem and now I have no problem with it at all (playing Regent, Standard maps). Much like in the game of chess, there are certain openings that work in Civ3 and there are others that don't. Grabbing as much land as possible in the very beginning of a game works. The AI happens to know that and - by this time - even you probably know... Do not blame the AI for not giving up easily.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
It is UNACCEPTABLE when a braindead settler/soldier team marches into my territory (they do that even when at war showing how stupid the AI is), is ordered to leave, but keeps marching in, is ordered to leave a SECOND time, but keeps marching in. AND THEN, third time, it is "declare war or get out".

So what happens next? The settler/soldier team magically teleports itself to the OTHER side of my civ onto open tiles it should not even know exist and then sets up a town. It is ludicrous and infuriating. They should immediately leave by the same way they came in.

Since Firaxis refuses to fix this NONSENSE I will attack any settler in my territory after the first request. The hell with my rep; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway by the stupid cheating AI.

Although UNACCEPTABLE and NONSENSE would be too strong to express my feelings, this is something I agree with, although I am not 100% sure if you really get a reputation penalty for declaring a war to someone who has troops inside your territory (probably yes). The game should distinguish between an unprovoked declaration of war (a "greedy" one) and one that is a justifiable response to an action taken by the other side. Not just in this particular case only, but generally. I believe that declaring a war to a civ that has a certain unit in your territory for more than one turn should not harm your reputation (if you asked them to leave first).

I also agree that "removing" offending units to where they were heading originally is a little bit unfair and in fact is often used as an exploit (both by me and the AI). Returning to the last "non-offending" position or to the other civ's capital would probably be better. However, I know how this currently works and play accordingly, sometimes blocking the AI settler/spearmen combo, sometimes attacking... not a big deal for me.

vondrack · July 11, 2002, 09:47

Hey, Coracle! Missed ya... it was so quiet here while you were banned...

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
Settler Diarrhea - the flood of settlers wandering into your territory and settling everywhere and anywhere - is one of the two or three must annoying aspects of the game.

I must admit that in my first few games, I was also a bit embarrased by this "Settler Diarrhea". However, as my gaming skills improved, it was becoming less and less of a problem and now I have no problem with it at all (playing Regent, Standard maps). Much like in the game of chess, there are certain openings that work in Civ3 and there are others that don't. Grabbing as much land as possible in the very beginning of a game works. The AI happens to know that and - by this time - even you probably know... Do not blame the AI for not giving up easily.

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle
It is UNACCEPTABLE when a braindead settler/soldier team marches into my territory (they do that even when at war showing how stupid the AI is), is ordered to leave, but keeps marching in, is ordered to leave a SECOND time, but keeps marching in. AND THEN, third time, it is "declare war or get out".

So what happens next? The settler/soldier team magically teleports itself to the OTHER side of my civ onto open tiles it should not even know exist and then sets up a town. It is ludicrous and infuriating. They should immediately leave by the same way they came in.

Since Firaxis refuses to fix this NONSENSE I will attack any settler in my territory after the first request. The hell with my rep; I get blamed for stuff I never did anyway by the stupid cheating AI.

Although UNACCEPTABLE and NONSENSE would be too strong to express my feelings, this is something I agree with, although I am not 100% sure if you really get a reputation penalty for declaring a war to someone who has troops inside your territory (probably yes). The game should distinguish between an unprovoked declaration of war (a "greedy" one) and one that is a justifiable response to an action taken by the other side. Not just in this particular case only, but generally. I believe that declaring a war to a civ that has a certain unit in your territory for more than one turn should not harm your reputation (if you asked them to leave first).

I also agree that "removing" offending units to where they were heading originally is a little bit unfair and in fact is often used as an exploit (both by me and the AI). Returning to the last "non-offending" position or to the other civ's capital would probably be better. However, I know how this currently works and play accordingly, sometimes blocking the AI settler/spearmen combo, sometimes attacking... not a big deal for me.