Bigotry in Islam - And Here.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Very interesting New York Times article by Nicholas D. Kristof.

The Islamic world represses women, spawns terrorism, is prone to war, resists democracy and has contributed remarkably few great scientists or writers to modern civilization. So it's time to defend Islam.

In speaking to Arab friends, I've reproached them for the virulent anti-Semitism in their societies. But it's a cheap shot for us to scold Arabs for acquiescing in religious hatred unless we try vigorously to uproot our own religious bigotry.

Since 9/11, appalling hate speech about Islam has circulated in the U.S. on talk radio, on the Internet and in particular among conservative Christian pastors — the modern echoes of Charles Coughlin, the "radio priest" who had a peak listening audience in the 1930's of one-third of America for his anti-Semitic diatribes.

"Islam is, quite simply, a religion of war," Paul Weyrich and William Lind, two leading American conservatives, write in a new booklet titled "Why Islam Is a Threat to America and the West." Mr. Lind said of American Muslims: "They should be encouraged to leave. They are a fifth column in this country."

Ann Coulter, the columnist, suggested that "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

The Rev. Franklin Graham, son of the Rev. Billy Graham and a prominent evangelist in his own right, said of Islam: "I believe it's a very evil and wicked religion." The Rev. Jerry Vines, past president of the Southern Baptist Convention, declared that the Prophet Muhammad was "a demon-obsessed pedophile."

President Bush set an example of tolerance immediately after 9/11, but lately has been quiet. He should denounce the bigotry, rather than (as he did by speaking to the Baptist convention after the "pedophile" slur) condoning it. If we want Saudi princes to confront their society's hate-mongers, our own leaders should confront ours.

One problem with this prejudice (as with Osama bin Laden's) is that it blinds the bigots to any understanding of what they deride. If Islam were really just the caricature that it is often reduced to, then how would it be so appealing as to become the world's fastest-growing religion?

Islam already has 1.3 billion adherents and is spreading rapidly, particularly in Africa, partly because it also has admirable qualities that anyone who has lived in the Muslim world observes: a profound egalitarianism and a lack of hierarchy that confer dignity and self-respect among believers; greater hospitality than in other societies; an institutionalized system of charity, zakat, to provide for the poor. Many West Africans, for example, see Christianity as corrupt and hierarchical and flock to Islam, which they view as democratic and inclusive.

One can dispute that, and it's reasonable to worry about the implications of the spread of Islam for the status of women and for the genital mutilation of girls. But simply thundering that Islam is intrinsically violent does not help to understand it and picks up on racist and xenophobic threads that are some of the sorriest chapters in our history.

Of course, Islam is troubled in ways no one can ignore. The scholar Samuel Huntington has noted that the Islamic world has "bloody borders," with conflict around much of its perimeter. Of the 26 countries torn by conflict in the year 2000, 14 have large Muslim populations. And on average, Muslim countries mobilize twice as large a share of the population in armed forces as do predominately Christian countries.

This is fair grounds for debate, but the sweeping denigrations of Islam are mush. Critics often quote from the Koran, for example, to argue that Islam is intrinsically violent ("fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them"). But the Koran, like the Bible, can be quoted for any purpose. After all, the New Testament embraces slavery ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling").

In times of stress, even smart and sophisticated people tend to be swept up in prejudice. Teddy Roosevelt said in 1886: "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't inquire too closely in the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian."

History suggests that focusing on the moral deficiencies of other peoples simply underscores our own.

I think he has a good point. Our own bigot are out in force against Islam, so how can we chide the bigotry of Islam while letting our own go unabated.

Thoughts?

[drake]

A few bible thumping rednecks hardly represents the majority of opinions in this country.

[Arrian]

Good article.

...it's reasonable to worry about the implications of the spread of Islam for the status of women and for the genital mutilation of girls. But simply thundering that Islam is intrinsically violent does not help to understand it and picks up on racist and xenophobic threads that are some of the sorriest chapters in our history.

Of course, Islam is troubled in ways no one can ignore. The scholar Samuel Huntington has noted that the Islamic world has "bloody borders," with conflict around much of its perimeter. Of the 26 countries torn by conflict in the year 2000, 14 have large Muslim populations. And on average, Muslim countries mobilize twice as large a share of the population in armed forces as do predominately Christian countries.

This is fair grounds for debate, but the sweeping denigrations of Islam are mush. Critics often quote from the Koran, for example, to argue that Islam is intrinsically violent ("fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them"). But the Koran, like the Bible, can be quoted for any purpose. After all, the New Testament embraces slavery ("Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling").

I think this is extremely important: it's not that Islam doesn't have problems or issues that can be discussed. It clearly does (as does the Catholic Church, what with Priests molesting little boys), but the discussion should be rational and informed. Those quotes from the American far right are neither.

-Arrian

[Boris Godunov]

Religious bigotry? In the United States?!

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!

[Ecthy]

I'm already sorry, but the thread title made me think of something funny:

I've never been in Islam before. Have you?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
One can dispute that, and it's reasonable to worry about the implications of the spread of Islam ... for the genital mutilation of girls.

I was under the impression that this wasn't mandated under either the Koran or the Sharia. Was I mistaken?

Our own bigot are out in force against Islam, so how can we chide the bigotry of Islam while letting our own go unabated.

We didn't kill thousands of Muslims in one day just to get our rocks off. That strikes me as a good enough reason why they should make the first move.

But other than that, You're correct. Bush should continue to be the force he was for religious tolerance immediately following 9/11.

[Az]

AS I've said before , the problem with Islam , in relation to other religions, is the fact that it's active, spreading , and endangering us all . Otherwise, I hate 'em all .

[Bereta_Eder]

islam.

too bad you dont know greek

theres a great song about a small boy called sevah who tried to change the world (for the better)

[Ecthy]

Dalgetti, that's very bigotted. But it's true that Islam is still in expansion phase, eh?

Well, it's not a problem with Turkey, and not with any other country either, not even Iraq which gets instrumentalized by zionist hordes (), so it's weird.

It is just a problem for the people that live in it. But then, if they grow up with it and if their societies are deeply connected to that religion and possibly some Sharia laws, why bothering?

[Imran Siddiqui]

We didn't kill thousands of Muslims in one day just to get our rocks off.

There is that thing called the Crusades .

[Az]

yes, but if a country will become muslim , It will empose it's silly laws on me? besides , I think we should help all the people that suffer from these terrible laws. At least half of the population suffers ( women ) , and if that's not enough , the whole concept of religion in general , and Islam , in particular , is halting the progress of the human race.

in short, If you won't bother with it now, It'll come back , and bite you in the ass .

[Bereta_Eder]

it is a problem with turkey because it is one of the major things that impede our beloved neighboors to become a democracy.

military has to keep its regime in place so that islamism doesnt come forth and win the elections.


and you propably never hear about the islamist terrorist attacks against political establishemnts in turkey. (one happened just yersterday)

but it is not a problem as much as in other countries yes.

they have us to civilize them


BTW that songs ends with something like that


as he sits next to Allah, poor little sevah dont you know, that it is with fire and knife that this world goes fort, farewell little sevah who thought he can change the world


it is a beautiful very sweet song that transports you instantly to arabia or some place like that mystifying

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
There is that thing called the Crusades .

If you wish I could get a similar example from Islamic history, but I would prefer to deal with the here and now.

[Ecthy]

Dalgetti, they might not even see it as suffering but as their destination. I know it's hardly bearable from our point of view, but still... of course, in the end there's enlightenment for everyone, so yeah, but I fail to see the connection between Islam and planes flying into office towers.

[Monk]

Imran,

A very good subject to raise. Maybe you've noted I've made a few slightly aggressive points on Islam to express my concern on the issue. Let's break up the article a bit...

Critics often quote from the Koran, for example, to argue that Islam is intrinsically violent ("fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them"). But the Koran, like
the Bible, can be quoted for any purpose.

Of course this is a valid point, but as far as I know, the Koran is per definition the inerrant word of God, word for word, whereas the widespread Christian perception of the Bible is different. Sure, the Bible is also supposed to be God's message to mankind, but it's generally agreed upon that it's authored by people, not God himself. This also means you can attribute some parts of the Bible to the society in which it was written, whereas the very word of God per definition would apply equally much today as it did in the days of Muhammad.

[Islam has] greater hospitality than in other societies; an institutionalized system of charity, zakat, to provide for the poor

This is probably correct as well, but once again there are two sides of the story. At least partly, Islam can be regarded as a religion of greater hospitality because according to the doctrine, state and church isn't supposed to be seperate entities. This is one of the things that bothers me the most regarding Islam contra Christianity - it's unquestionable that Jesus much unlike Muhammad to none or very little degree made up laws or anything of that sort. You can't deny that Christianity doesn't have remotely the same political dimension you find in Islam, which is probably the very reason religion continues to play such a big part down there. Generally speaking, the guidelines present in Muslim thought leave much lesser room for the individual, thus making it significantly more difficult than other religions to incorparate in our modern 21st century society based on the belief in the potential and the abilities of said individual.

(EDIT: I typed "the Bible" where it should have been "the Koran". Now corrected.)

[Az]

Paiktis : don't you think that the current regime is better for turkey than any Islamic regime?

Ecthelion: The following example may sound funny but it has a point. remember "The Marix"? there were lots of people hanging in slime , and were fooled into having a totally wrong picture of the world. Do you think that the heros of the movie were wrong in trying to free them ?

[Ecthy]

I had a similar thought briefly ago, about the Matrix and all that... actually that was just a misled thought of myself... we claim our societies enlightened, and that includes liberation of oppressed, somehow.

[Bereta_Eder]

dalgetti: yes for the people in turkey but they seem to always want the islamists. no for external relations 'cause military regime is as bad as islamist IMO (we have lived next to both)

[Stefu]

These articles always give me the feel that author wants everyone who criticizes Islam, whether he has a reason or not, to include a disclaimer reading "I know my culture has done bad things too, and I don't agree with them". Or something like that.

There is truth about that Jesus saying about motes in eyes and such, but when zealously applied, it leads to no-one saying anything about anything because they can't make it all nice and balanced.

[Az]

this is not a real post. You're the only one seeing this . If you mention it to other people , they'll make fun of you . Better get some medication and forget you ever saw this.

[Az]

so don't you think that a military regime , that has it's women free , and is at least accountable to the US , is better than an islamic "republic" ?

Ecthelion: sounds like cultural relativist bullcrap.

[Bereta_Eder]

dal, i already said that it's better for the people of turkey. but dont think that turkish women are free just beacue a military regime is in power. the culture remains islamic.
as for being accountable to the US, no. If they turn islamic they'll be such as abnoxious in external relations (i told you we lived with both islamic and military turkey next to us) and not having the US support is only a good thing if you get my drift.

[Ecthy]

what?

plus, women are free in a republic

[Ecthy]

please, what is cultural relativist bullcrap? if you ask me, you're too absolute. think relative

[Monk]

Oh, I missed one;

If Islam were really just the caricature that it is often reduced to, then how would it be so appealing as to become the world's fastest-growing religion?

This is one of the weakest points he tries to make. If the same flawed thought process was applied a relatively short while ago when concrete communism was one of the world's fastest-growing ideologies - maybe Kristof would have argued it couldn't have been that appealing after all.

[Az]

cultural relativism ---> " Court ruling of raping girl because her brother did something wrong is just their way of doing things, their tradition. We have no right to judge them".

[Imran Siddiqui]

This is one of the weakest points he tries to make.

Um, he actually backs it up in later passages, which Africans flocking to it. It's a good point. If it is SOOO repressive, why does it gain followers in such massive numbers?

[Ecthy]

nonsense

that's not what I meant, I meant it as in "do we see other cultures from ultimatre pov or from ours? do we have the right to interfere?"

it comes close to that, but there's a difference. ehin our acting is enlightenme´nt (18th century one not buddha one). that's the ultimate point of view when it comes to humanity affairs, especially in connection with humanism (14/15th century one). so we're always right

but still, if it's not a true republic, it's a dictatorship. and a dictatorship that is halfway west minded is better than a dictatorship that is reactionary in a cultural sense(ie islamic fundies)

[Sirotnikov]

I agree with Dal.

It's not that Islam is inherently worse that Christianity. It has it's differences, and it's hard to judge, considering it has brighter but also darker points.

The problem is that Islam is younger, and still is very active and has not matured to the point that Christianity has.

Christianity, it seems, has far less effect on people and life and politics than Islam does right now.

Furthermore, Christianity is currently hardly as missionary as it was, say, 600 years ago. And Islam is some 600 years younger than Christianity.

The problem is, that while now fundamentalist Islamists are still prevalent, they have access to more and better weapons of mass destruction, which Christianity didn't have 600 years ago. Though they did manage to slaughter enough people.

[Ecthy]

Bleh. The problem is people in the Islamic world are poor (former colonies, like Africa) and therefore easily affectable... therefore, they could also be turned against Israel and the US with Christianity etc. And then, it's not a majority there that is in a fighting mood. It's bad organisations. And instead of destroying Palestinian infrastructure for persecuting criminals, you should either let them go or if you think it's infested, clean it out and help them to get those buggers