Extension idea: moon colonizer.

muxec · July 13, 2002, 15:53

Allow moon colonization. Moon is a second tiny map and you may drop colonists to it. Sending unit to moon will cost 800 base cost but some advances reduce cost of sending:
sattellites, superconductor, Integrated defence reduce ythe cost by 100.
Robotics reduces the cost by 200.
Future tech reduce it 50 gp per level untill making free.

Moon colony increases your rating drastically and disables space race victory to other civs.

HazieDaVampire · July 13, 2002, 16:37

seems pritty cool, but how would it disable other civs space race?
The Ability of super fast ICBM's that can be fired without the risk of Intrigates defense would be good (These must befired from the moon onto a target!)

Destroyer · July 13, 2002, 23:13

Why would ICBMs fired from the moon be superfast? They have many times the distance to travel and be intercepted.

Iskandar Reza · July 14, 2002, 00:12

Emmm, Gravity? 10ms/s is pretty fast right?

Palleon · July 14, 2002, 00:33

It takes a few hours to fire an ICBM from one part of the world to the other. It takes 3 days to get to the moon. If you want to fire ICBM's from the moon, not only would it be slow, but inaccurate, because the target will have moved a hell of a lot since then, because the Earth will have rotated quite a lot.

Iskandar Reza · July 14, 2002, 00:41

[Dr Evil]No, we shall put a huge "laser" on the moon. This huge "laser" will be called the Alan Parsons Project. With that, the moon shall be called the "DeathStar". With this "DeathStar", we shall hold the world at ransom for.............

........a million bucks.

[/Dr Evil]

muxec · July 14, 2002, 03:27

No, moon will have a unique resource.

Blake · July 14, 2002, 05:45

Helium3, used in fusion reactors.

Andrew_Jay · July 14, 2002, 09:26

I really like this idea, too bad it is such that it could only be done by Firaxis . . . or a really good programmer with all the right tools.
So, basically, the moon will be a slightly smaller map (probably 1/6 or so?)? Maybe it'd fit in really well with a fifth, post-modern age, though that'd be kind of weird, going to Alpha Centuri first . . .
But anyway, I like the idea. Be cool to be contstructing special "moon colonists" and "moon infantry" on earth and then senging them skyward.

Kind of related, you know the space elevator in AC? Apparently NASA is funding the construction of a real one.

XF Clohvn · July 14, 2002, 10:13

Great idea. Sounds like something they could put in Civ4.

Willem · July 14, 2002, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Andrew_Jay

Kind of related, you know the space elevator in AC? Apparently NASA is funding the construction of a real one.

They're not funding the construction of it as yet, it's only a feasability study at the moment.

Ninot · July 14, 2002, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Palleon
It takes a few hours to fire an ICBM from one part of the world to the other. It takes 3 days to get to the moon. If you want to fire ICBM's from the moon, not only would it be slow, but inaccurate, because the target will have moved a hell of a lot since then, because the Earth will have rotated quite a lot.

actually, I have read an ICBM only takes 40 minutes to circle the world...

and, targetting wouldnt be an issue. Heck, its not like we missed the moon when we sent the apollo missions. We can arrange for satelites to meet up with Jupiter exactly as planned, hitting a city would not be much of a task.

Im thinking re-entry might be a problem tho. It would be coming in a couple of times the speed of sound, and it would need to be coming in at an angle for a certain city.

Palleon · July 14, 2002, 11:58

Just a few things that are bothering me with this one. One, the game would have been won by this point, if you have the ability to go to the moon, you'd be able to build the spaceship and win the game. Two, the moon can't produce food, has no resources, so would be completely dependant on the earth for all food, and wouldn't be able to produce anything. And since cities now can't send any excess food, I don't think this would work. As for preventing other civs space races, why? I don't get the logic behind that one. I think that this might make a good small wonder, that reduces the cost of spaceship parts for that civ (Instead of a Moon Colony, how about a lunar spacedock?) That's my 2 cents for now.

sabrewolf · July 14, 2002, 14:43

interesting idea!

but the moon colonization shouldn't be like another (smaller) earth colonization.

because the moon has no resources (expect cheese that is... "everyone knows, that the moon is made of cheese" (C) Wallace & Gromit) and transporting resources doesn't make much sence. production should be done down on earth and then airlifted (or spacelifted) to the moon. of course there's only a limited number of units per turn you can spacelift, etc. etc. etc.

the interesting thing about this would be to find out how many units you use at home and how many on the moon.

moon dominance --> you can trigger a global nuclear winter and survive
but if you don't keep your earth cities --> less production, less units on the moon.

but this all sounds like a new game rather then civ4

Andrew_Jay · July 14, 2002, 17:30

perhaps commerce on the moon will be huge, in return for maybe enough food to keep people alive, and only one or two shield production (not from lack of resources, but lack of facilities. ie factories etc.). That could represent all the research that can be carried out up there; astronomy, low-gravity what-not etc.

Maybe there can also be an Alan Parsons Moon Laser small wonder to make the moon even more attractive. It could target the earth for a pretty big, once a turn bombardment.

Blake · July 14, 2002, 17:31

Actually Helium3 (an isotope of helium) is an entirely valid resource for the Moon to have. It is very rare on Earth, but fairly abundant on the moon.

Altough scientists don't yet know how to build a economical fusion reactor, it is possible that helium3 may by the key to cheap fusion power.

So building a moon base (either on a moon-map, or as a small wonder) would enable the construction of Fusion Plants, which would give more production and eliminate most pollution.
It would ALSO become the pre-req for the spaceship, because I seriously doubt a spaceship to AC could be made to work without a fusion reactor to power it. Moon bases could potentionally make orbital construction cheaper, because of the relatively shallow gravity well (and many metals and oxygen can be mined on the moon), altough a space elevator would make construction a lot cheaper again.

An interstellar spaceship is more of a 5th age thing anyway than a 4th age. Reaching the moon is childsplay compared to reaching AC

And sending food from the Earth to the moon is not nessecary... the moon base can grow it's own using hydroponics or greenhouses, and in any case the rations which they get sent from earth would barely qualify as 'food', only nutritionally, anyway

.

And yeah, a new game, moon colonization, but instead of colonizing the "new world" from Europe, you colonise the Moon from Earth, and can choose to start as any world power.

sabrewolf · July 14, 2002, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
Actually Helium3 (an isotope of helium) is an entirely valid resource for the Moon to have. It is very rare on Earth, but fairly abundant on the moon.

Altough scientists don't yet know how to build a economical fusion reactor, it is possible that helium3 may by the key to cheap fusion power.

So building a moon base (either on a moon-map, or as a small wonder) would enable the construction of Fusion Plants, which would give more production and eliminate most pollution.
It would ALSO become the pre-req for the spaceship, because I seriously doubt a spaceship to AC could be made to work without a fusion reactor to power it. Moon bases could potentionally make orbital construction cheaper, because of the relatively shallow gravity well (and many metals and oxygen can be mined on the moon), altough a space elevator would make construction a lot cheaper again.

An interstellar spaceship is more of a 5th age thing anyway than a 4th age. Reaching the moon is childsplay compared to reaching AC

And sending food from the Earth to the moon is not nessecary... the moon base can grow it's own using hydroponics or greenhouses, and in any case the rations which they get sent from earth would barely qualify as 'food', only nutritionally, anyway

.

And yeah, a new game, moon colonization, but instead of colonizing the "new world" from Europe, you colonise the Moon from Earth, and can choose to start as any world power.

He3 isotope on the moon in high concentration? wow, i didn't know that

ok, we can build fusion-powerplants, but can't really have many factories to use the energy... so it's time to invent cordless power transmission

Iskandar Reza · July 14, 2002, 20:08

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf

He3 isotope on the moon in high concentration? wow, i didn't know that

ok, we can build fusion-powerplants, but can't really have many factories to use the energy... so it's time to invent cordless power transmission

Beam it to earth with microwaves, you know like in SimCity.

Blake · July 14, 2002, 21:17

Well, actually the helium3 would be mined on the moon and shipped back to earth (it's helium, it's light!, which makes it another ideal moon resource). So the presence of a moon base would allow the construction of fusion PP's on earth (which has a virtually limitless thirst for energy).

Palleon · July 14, 2002, 22:40

It's not like we need the moon to create fusion reactors, they've made fusion reactions here on Earth with materials, just not self-sustraining, or cost efficient yet. Within 20 years my friends, we'll see a fusion reactor on Earth. I guarentee it.

Blake · July 14, 2002, 23:06

Pretending for the moment that helium3 is required for a self-sustaining reaction, on earth the cost of Helium3 would be very very high, the cost of extraction (or alchemy) would possibly be greater than the energy created. Tho no doubt they could still scrounge enough He3 for a prototype demonstration "Look we have a self-sustaining fusion reaction".

So what I'm not saying is that He3 (from the moon) would be required for a self-sustaining fusion reaction, but it may be needed for economical fusion reactors.

And the reactors would be built on the earth! not the moon. The energy yeild of He3 (plus hydrogen extracted from water) would be so high that it would be more economical to ship the He3 back to earth, than trying to beam the energy.

steamthunk · July 15, 2002, 00:30

Who says the moon has to be like Earth's real moon? It's not like the main map is a duplicate of Earth anyway (well at least not normally).

Palleon · July 15, 2002, 00:34

But it is patterened after Earth. Maybe not geologically, but the elements that occur on it are Earthlike, and it's earth cultures, therefore we can assume the moon would be quite similar to our own.

Iskandar Reza · July 15, 2002, 01:19

I thought the moon is made of green cheese.

The_Aussie_Lurker · July 15, 2002, 01:22

Damn, seems like someone beat me to it! My idea was that, with the advent of Sattelite tech, you should be able to build an improvement called "Commercial Launch Platform" or even a "Mass Launcher" (which, by itself, would increase the cities science and commerce). After Integrated Defence, you would then have a tech called either "Extraterrestrial Exploration" or "Intrasolar Exploration", which would allow you to build the small wonder "Extraterrestrial Colonization" (requiring about 5 Commercial Launch Platforms), which would grant you a civ-wide bonus to research and production (as well as reduce all population and improvement based pollution). Most of my other ideas are really options dependant on how flexible the new editor is!
Option 1: The new tech allows helium-3 and zero-g alloys as new strategic resources. Helium-3 is needed for fusion reactor, and helium-3 and zero-g alloys would be needed to build a variety of high-tech units and improvements (such as Power Armour, Hover tank etc!)

Option 2: The small wonder enables construction of Fusion reactor and high-tech units, without mention of the specific resources!

Option 3: The small wonder causes you to have access to the aforementioned resources (Best option, but Highly UNLIKELY!)

Option 4: Small wonder enables the construction of a Helium-3 enrichment plant and a zero-g manufacturing plant (improvements or small wonders?) which, in turn, allows you to produce all the aformentioned, high-tech, improvements and units!
Anyway, there are a few options which wouldn't even need ANY new maps, and could be done with the upcoming Mod capabilities (assuming the new editor patch is all we hope it to be!)

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

Palleon · July 15, 2002, 01:49

My only beef with this topic now is that Firaxis has pretty much said they didn't really want to get into space, or more futuristic techs like fusion, because civ deals with things that we as humans more or less have the capacity to do, with the exception of the spaceship. They said they didn't want to make anouther Alpha Centauri, which is why I think this probobly won't be implemented ever.

The_Aussie_Lurker · July 15, 2002, 02:06

Actually Palleon, I'd say that the majority of what is suggested here, with the possible exception of Hover Tanks and PA, is within current human capacity or, at the very least, is within our grasp within the next 3-4 decades. Some argue that, had the U.S not given up the ghost, we could have had Lunar Colonies about 10 years ago, and we could possibly have even been putting our first steps on Mars by now! That, of course, is pure speculation-which is just what this game happens to be about!! Who knows, maybe even PA and hyper-advanced tanks (armed with rail-guns and armoured with zero-g alloys) could have been within our grasp by now! I probably wouldn't want to go any further into the future than this, though, or it will just start looking like CtP 1&2!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

sabrewolf · July 15, 2002, 02:54

i believe so too, aussie-lurker

if the spending had been kept up in the rate of the 60's and 70's, we probably would be on the mars by now.

but i think the money was/is needed in other places more urgently...

btw: to transport He3 to the earth, it would need a refinery on the moon. and i'm not so sure, He3 would be "light" to transport: to have effective use of space, you'd need to bring it to very high pressure. but then, gas under pressure is very dangerous.

most sensitive use i guess would be for fuelling fusion-driven spaceships away from earth. advantage: to exit moon's orbit you don't need a 10th of the energy of the energy needed to exit earths gravitational pull

ok ok ok, i'm off topic

... but at least it isn't the usual political discussion

on-topic: don't think anything like this will come. except if sid uses some of these ideas for a new game.
reminds me of "ascendancy", another TBG. do you guy know it?

The_Aussie_Lurker · July 15, 2002, 03:17

Actually Sabrewolf, as I indicated in my earlier post, so long as they give us a flexible enough editor, it should be quite easy to put extraplanetary colonies into the game as a small wonder! It would be a BIT of a fudge (i.e. you lose the city with the small wonder in it, and somehow you've lost ALL your colonies!) But it would all be do-able!
Anyway, that's how I see it, anyway.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

sabrewolf · July 15, 2002, 03:25

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
Actually Sabrewolf, as I indicated in my earlier post, so long as they give us a flexible enough editor, it should be quite easy to put extraplanetary colonies into the game as a small wonder! It would be a BIT of a fudge (i.e. you lose the city with the small wonder in it, and somehow you've lost ALL your colonies!) But it would all be do-able!
Anyway, that's how I see it, anyway.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

talking about flexible editor: it's a shame there won't be any scripting

THAT would be flexibility
and talking about the editor in general: WHEN?