Ibero-american civilizations

[yellfromhell]

Hi,
In the original Civ3 there arent Ibero-american civilizations. I suppose Spain case has been longly discussed, but Im new here. So I want to discuss about a larger miss: the whole ibero-american society (lets say that it occupies more or less 1/6 of the worlds land mass and represents about 1/10 of the worlds population) is not represented by any Civ.
Yes, I know what you`re thinking about: the Aztecs. They are not really a Ibero-american civ, but an american civ. I mean: the original owners of the American territory are well represented (by the Aztecs and the Iroquais) and thats why I dont want to discuss about the Incas, the Mayas, the Sioux, etc. I want to center the discussion in those who invaded territories or in post-colonization civs. Therefore we could talk about Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Colombia, Cuba, or even about symbolical groups leaded by Simón Bolivar or San Martin.
But, its not just a matter of representation (in fact, Firaxis does what it wants). We have to justify with heavy arguments why they should include formally a post-colonial ibero-american civ. Here we go:
SPAIN: this case is ridiculous. A Civ that once owned 1/5 of the worlds land mass, and that had colonys in every continent (South América, North America, Europe, Africa -it still has Canarias, Mérida and Ceuta - and Asia - it had the Phillipines -). I dont want to keep talking about this because I believe the error is too big and notorious. Its impossible to understand why this civ has no representation when it always had since 'Colonization game'.
PORTUGAL: another enormous Civ. Also with colonies all around the world (except North America and Oceania). There`s no need to waste words trying to justify its inclussion.
BRAZIL: the size of the country shows its importance by itself. For those who like history, I can tell you that they even had a King, and that its original name was 'The Empire of Brazil'. We are talking about 200 millon people, and the only contemporary example of big planned colonization - the capital, Brazilia, was built in the middle of the jungle in order to decentralize power, and was designed as a futurist city -). They invaded my country several times - Uruguay -, also Paraguay, Bolivia, etc.
CUBA: its the only occidental civ that dares to trully argue with USA - I suppose its not necessary to explain what this means -. Although its an extremelly poor country -economically- it has one of the best education systems and everyone has access to their best physitians. They have a world wide known scientific research history - f.e. they discovered a vaccine for meningitis B -. They have a charismatic leader - thats out of question - that generates enemies or friends every time he speaks, and that directly supported most of the guerrillas in South America during the 60s - many of them with 'Che' Guevara fighting in the field -. Lets not talk about if you like or not the man, the system or anyelse. Lets talk about facts.
MEXICO: I believe they were in war with the US about 3 times. Once they owned Texas and California, doubling their actual territory size. They have the most populated city in the world - Mexico City -. A mexican - Pancho Villa - was the only man that invaded the continental territory of USA. Today they are the 8th economy in the world. I believe they should have less chances in becoming a formal Civ3 civ because they are somehow represented by the Aztecs.
ARGENTINA: They were also involved in many, many wars - with Chile, Paraguay, etc -. They recently dare to war with England - 1982 -, and that means war with the 3rd most powerfull country at that time. Its true, war lasted only months and theres nothing to be proud about it, but remember we are talking about facts, not about good and evil.
We can also suppose that 'spanish' South America as a Civ, lead by Simon Bolivar or by José San Martin. Together they liberated 7 countries from the Spanish monarchy, and they inspired many other revolutions, as well as the Americanist spirit. Really, there are not enough differences between South-American spanish speaking countries to dismiss the possibility of considering a Hispano-american Civ.
Well, if you want, lets talk about all this. I hope I didnt bother you too much with the lenght of this message.
Thanks
Yellfromhell

[Gangerolf]

Spain and Portugal deserve to be in the game, and if I'm not mistaken they're including Spain in "Play the World".

[Gangerolf]

We can also suppose that 'spanish' South America as a Civ, lead by Simon Bolivar or by José San Martin. Together they liberated 7 countries from the Spanish monarchy, and they inspired many other revolutions, as well as the Americanist spirit. Really, there are not enough differences between South-American spanish speaking countries to dismiss the possibility of considering a Hispano-american Civ.

Interesting idea, what should be the capital, unique unit, abilities etc?

[Fresno]

I agree with you about Spain, it is one of the most important western civs ever, and has a long, rich history. But I don't think the countries which once formed their colonial empire should be included as well, unless civ4 will be more like Europa Universalis. In that game, colonies of a country can start an independance war. That way, you wouldn't have very young nations starting in 4000 BC.

[yellfromhell]

Gangerolf,
I was just throwing an inmature idea looking for help in solving the problems you question.
It will look a bit nationalist -´cos Im uruguayian- but the capital of such empire could be Montevideo - the actual capital of the ALADI, that is the Latinamerican association for integration -. Montevideo is also the Administrative capital of the Mercosur - that has no formal capital -.
But we could also talk about Caracas - from where Bolivar would rule - or Buenos Aires - from where San Martin would.
There are a lot of controversial possibilities, I understand.
Unique unit is a bigger problem, because there are a lot that suit for that place. Obviously, in case San Martin is established as the leader, the unique unit should be the Gaucho. The Gaucho used many different arms but the most unusual of them was the 'boleadora' they aquire from the local River Plate tribes. So, I believe it should be a horseman that can massivly un-fortify the enemy units in the squares that sorround him (because 'boleadoras' dont kill, just bring down to the floor the enemy). Maybe this is illarious, but thats why I want to discuss it.
I`ll think of some alternatives and tell you later.
Hey, after all this threat has no reason to be something serious... lets propose everything, no matter if its ridiculous or not. We should laugh a little more :=)
Bye.
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Fresno,
Your proposal also applies for USA?
And another thing: we should carefully define whats a Civ, a Nation and a Country. Why? Because the Germans were a Nation before their unification in 19th century, but I doubt they could be called a Civ. They did nothing all togher (I mean the little states that previous to the unification existed), and they function as a Civ only when they were attacked or when they attacked. (Im talking about the 2nd half of the past millenium. I know almost nothing about their history in the first half)
Bye.
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

One more thing Fresno,
¿Dont you miss your Netherlands in Civ? I remember Holland being one of the four empires in Colonization game. I always played with them to enphasis trade.
Bye.
Yellfromhell

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
I'm sorry about the imperialist attitude of Brasil in the past (well, today we are, like everybody here, in the hands of FMI- I don't know how is in english, MIF? IMF? - and we aren't imperialist anymore. Sigh... ). And, of course I agree whith your complains! A Latin American civ is necessary and historically fair.
Your arguments are strong, about any countries. Firaxis will certainly think about. Great post!

[Aro]

I can see, following your posts, 5, 6, maybe 7 new civs. A lot of data, and a lot of work to our computers and Firaxis. Europe is well represented in the game, North America has Iroq and Yankees. I'm from Brazil, but despite this I agree with a civ Hispano American. But... only to make things more interesting, and because Spain IS in the game (october, I hope!), here is a point to discuss: There's no Portuguese speakers in the game... And a lot of people in the world, a lot of literature, in the past the School of Sagres and all that naval research... all them speaking Portuguese. And, last but not least, our football.
But I'm still with you, the Latin America speaks spanish, mostly. If we get only one Civ, that must to be lead by San Martín and our first proud city will be Montevideu. It's a great player start. But maybe we can think about TWO Civs to fit our needs...
My english isn't very good, as you can see, but I'll try to do better in the future.

Oh, and we need an Arabian Civ, too...

[Venger]

To answer the question - Simon Bolivar.

But...

Alot of very minor powers in Central and South America.

Spain in the game? Hell yes.

Portugal? Hell no. You put them in, you might as well put the Dutch in.

What country from South America? Brazil is the only country of note, but let's be honest, other than simply having alot of Brazilians, what exactly has Brazil brought to the table? Other than Sergio Mendes music?

A Civ has to have either signifigant power or cultural influences to rate inclusion in Civ.

Venger

[yellfromhell]

Aro,
Your English seems good for me. Remember I speak spanish, and I have some problems with english as well:=)
I agree with you in many thing. Between all the mentioned possibilities, I believe there should be place for 2 or 3. The case of Spain, as everybody said, its not to be discussed. No matter wich Civ is taken out, Spain must get in Civ4.
I believe there should be a place for a portuguese speaking Civ. Im not sure if Portugal or Brazil. Certainly Portugal did a lot more than Brazil in exploring, colonizing, waring, etc; But Civ3 has plenty of european civs and today, if a war between Brazil and Portugal happens, Brazil surely would destroy its 'Mother Patria'.
The 3rd case -a hispanoamerican Civ- its not so clear to me. Somehow we would be represented as latin-americans by Brazil, and its true we didnt do much to deserve to be called a 'Civ'. I think this is because of the lack of history and wealth, but I cant forget South-America has never been invaded since the English Invasion in 1804 (when the English were kicked in the ass by Liniers in 2 months) - Im leaving out the case of the Falklands or Malvinas because the continent was not invaded -. Anyway, we could continue discussing the point.
About San Martin and Montevideo - or Montevideu in portuguese - . Here we have an historical problem: Montevideo became the capital of the Spanish Virreinato (I dont know the world in english, but Im talking about the representant of the king in the colony) in the River Plate after the Napoleon invasion in Spain. At that time, Buenos Aires - the previous capital of the Virreinato, saw a good chance to revolt and thats why the capital changed. Therefore, if San Martin is the leader, the capital should be Buenos Aires. I would love my procer José Artigas to be the leader, but I know his work is extremely small compared to San Martin`s, Bolivar`s or O`Higgin`s.
Im really not sure about all this, Im pretty confused :=)
Well, lets see if someone supports a new position.
Hugs
YellfromHell

[yellfromhell]

Aro,
One more thing: dont introduce football in discussion :=)
If its for football, then we should be our worst enemies :=)
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Vanger,
I may agree with you about us, the spanish speaking latin-americans, but certainly not about Portugal. Surely the dutch, as well as Belgium or the Huns can make it in Civ4. They deserve to be represented because of all what they`ve done. But many Civs deserve to be, and there`s no place for all. But what Portugal did his a lot far more important than what those Civs did. Remember they were once an extremelly powerfull nation. Lets talk about their colonies: a) the enormous Brazil, b) Mozambique and Angola in Africa, c) the Azores islands, d) Macao, in the cost of China; and Im sure Im forgetting some more. Holland had -and still have- a lot of colonies, but none of them had the importance of those of Portugal. ¿What importance has the Dutch Guyana today, f.e.? ¿And the dutch caribbean islands? I certainly dont want to hurt any sensibility, but just by watching a world map you can see the differences.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Vanger,
I forgot. Dont count Manhattan as a dutch colony, or at least dont judge the colony importance because of what`s Manhattan today. The big part of that work was done by the English.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Aro,
Recently I had notice by the newspapers of a chat between Nixon and the English Prime-Minister of that time, in where Nixon says: "I have the uruguayian election controlled, with the help of our friends the Brazileans". This was in 1971. That year we had presidential elections here and the Left parties had a big chance of winning it. As you know, at that time, USA promoted the south-american militaries disctatorships against the advance of the left side guerrillas -supported by Cuba and the Soviet Union -. The plan - that never took place because the election was a fraude and the right won - was that if the Left would won the election, Brazil - supported by USA - would invade Uruguay to re-establish "order". Then, it was 1971, not so long ago. Therefore Im still frightened with the possibility of a War - we still have 2 parts of our fronteir contested - :=) I think today we would disapear from the World Map :=)
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
Your knowledge about history is very solid, and I agree, again, with yours arguments. And I had noticed this affair about Nixon, too. If I'm not wrong, this was part of the Condor Plan, a nightmare unifying the dictatorship in our continent, this come out recently in the news.
BTW, congratulations, we really need this thread. I'll post all ideas I may have about that.

[yellfromhell]

Sorry Venger for calling you 'Vanger' in all my past replies.
I`ll be honest. I knew I was missing a big dutch colony but I couldnt remember which. Now I do: Indonesia. ¡¡Thats a really, really big colony!! However, dutch influence in the colony was small. Just see: they are all muslims, they had no notorious cultural exchange, there are no cities with dutch names... Its clear for me that the dutch ussed their colonies as trade plataforms, points in the map from where they could reach more and more markets. Eventhough I recognize all this and its importance (Indonesia has hundreds of millons of people), I believe its still small compared with what Portugal did.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Yes Aro,
It was all part of the big Condor Plan. Something similar seems to be happening today: see the ephimerous falldown of Chaves government in Venezuela and what the US government said at that time. Remember Chaves is a friend of Castro. And see whats happening in your country: the "menace" that represents Lula for USA interest, and the consecuent FMI pressure and all that. We seem to still be the backyard of the world: we are always having trouble with problems we didnt create... just like in the cold war: we couldnt represent a menace to nobody, but no matter why we ended 'playin' in the Capitalist-Comunist World Game.
Sometimes I think we should care more about our real domestic problems than keep looking at the north as somekind of undeveloped admirors.
Hugs.
Yellfromhell

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
I knew I was missing a big dutch colony but I couldnt remember which. Now I do: Indonesia. ¡¡Thats a really, really big colony!! However, dutch influence in the colony was small.

You are right, the Dutch used the colonies economically, they did not settle them very much, they typically just administered. Don't forget Surinaam was Dutch until recently. Maybe they could be barbarians in your south america mod.

[Fresno]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
Fresno,
Your proposal also applies for USA?

Absolutely. I've started a thread about it once, which most posters here will remember because it stayed alive for a very long time. It wasn't a very popular thread though... Many American nationalists didn't like it.

Because the Germans were a Nation before their unification in 19th century, but I doubt they could be called a Civ. They did nothing all togher (I mean the little states that previous to the unification existed), and they function as a Civ only when they were attacked or when they attacked. (Im talking about the 2nd half of the past millenium. I know almost nothing about their history in the first half)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. It's true that the Germans unified very late, but their cultural importance in the centuries before their unification was already really huge. For me, that's the difference with all the colonial states which became independent since about 1800.

One more thing Fresno,
¿Dont you miss your Netherlands in Civ? I remember Holland being one of the four empires in Colonization game. I always played with them to enphasis trade.

I miss the Spanish and the Dutch. They both could be in.

Oh, and Marquis, about Indonesia: it's true we didn't colonize it in the same way as the Spanish colonized America; it was a trade colony rather than a settlement colony. It made the Dutch one of the richest peoples in Europe, while the Dutch West-India Compagny ("V.O.C") was by far the biggest trading compagny in the world. Because the Dutch were so rich, they could affort to buy high quality art (mostly paintings). That's why it also was culturally a golden age.

Because the Netherlands were relatively rich, and because we had much religious freedom, there were only few Dutch who wanted to settle in the colonies. That's the main reason why we haven't got many settlement colonies (apart from being a much smaller nation then other colonial powers... only Portugal is smaller).

So if you want us to be barbarians, please make us wealthier then any real civ

[yellfromhell]

quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq:
"You are right, the Dutch used the colonies economically, they did not settle them very much, they typically just administered. Don't forget Surinaam was Dutch until recently. Maybe they could be barbarians in your south america mod".

Marquis, Im not planning a mod. I mentioned Surinam in a past post as the "Dutch Guyana". Let me tell you something about that: I dont know why but neither the british, the dutch or the french gave any importance to the Guyanas, eventhough they where the only colonies they had in South America. At least the french still have theirs, and the french equivalent to Cape Cañaveral is there. The independent Guyanas never ever met with their neighbours (for what I know about): they seem to live in another continent. Just recently massive brazilean influence seem to affect them.
Hugs
Yell

[yellfromhell]

Fresno,

About the USA in an Europa Universalis like game:
What we should discuss is if Civ3 should be a realistic game or if, as most of the games, is intended to give wings to imagination.

About the Dutch: as I said, I will do no mod. But I really believe the dutch should be in the game. Do any of you watch 'Star-trek'. Well, I believe the Ferengis are inspired either on the Dutch or on the Jews (just talking about their trading abilities). Their could also be some similarities with the Fenitians.

About Holland or Portugal in the game:
I do believe richness is a point for Holland. But I believe colonialist influence is a point for Portugal. See: Portugal colonies in South-America had non-rich tribes. They had to look for the gold (the Spaniards, instead, just took it from the Incas or the Aztecs). Thats why they focused in expanding their territory. The Spaniards were so occupaid in taking gold that forgot to stop the Portuguese advance over the limits established by the Tordesillas treaty. I believe something similar happened to Holland: the focused all in trade. Is like in Civ3: one option is to build many, many cities to have lots of people, no matter the terrein quality. Another option is to build cities only in strategic points.

Hugs
Yell

[Aro]

Yellfromhell,
In a certain way, Portugal acted like Holland. They used to build fortress in coast, and that fortresses had cannons in BOTH sides, the coastal side and the country side. The intention was settle down there and go to some commerce. In Africa and Asia, at least . Here, in Brazil, there was no much to trade... only to exploit. So, soon or later they had to advance to the continent. Maybe Portugal could be an expansionist and commercial Civ, and Holland a scientific and commercial one. After all, Holland received a lot of brains due their tollerance whit the fugitives of Inquisition. Hmmm... Industrious could be better than scientific... A lot of capital arrived with the fugitives And, about an Ibero-american Civ, what you think about militaristic and expansionist? Or militaristic and commercial? We can even think about a religious one, because the populace in LA IS actually very mistic and religious.

[Aro]

I was thinking... Portugal had the scool of Sagres, so could be scientific, instead commercial. Sagres was a respectable research center in the XIVth century, and later. Like NASA in the past century used to be...
And how about UU? The Gaucho seems very fine, and introduce a concept in game... A unit that don't kill, but un-fortify is very interesting. Holland could have some kind of refined swordsman, I don't know how to say this in english, an "espadachim", or even a naval unit. In any case, this unit need to be avaliable before frigates or musketmen. Maybe Marquis de Sodaq or Fresno could help. What do you think, guys?
And Portugal... I had some ideas, but I'll post later. I have a lot of work waiting for me.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by yellfromhell
MEXICO: I believe they were in war with the US about 3 times. Once they owned Texas and California, doubling their actual territory size. They have the most populated city in the world - Mexico City -. A mexican - Pancho Villa - was the only man that invaded the continental territory of USA. Today they are the 8th economy in the world. I believe they should have less chances in becoming a formal Civ3 civ because they are somehow represented by the Aztecs.

Just a few clarifications on the Mexico entry. Pancho Villa isn't the only one to 'invade' the continental US. He was a bandit that robbed people and went across the Mexican border to avoid the forces that were trying to arrest him. You could just as easily say Al Capone invaded Canada cause he went across the border to pick up whiskey during Prohibition.

Secondly, Britain invaded the continental US in the war of 1812. They burned the US capital and marched on New Orleans.

I do hope someone makes a Colonial America Mod with all the great Colonial Powers.

However in the Portugal discussion: While Portugal had many more large and extensive holdings that the Dutch, these holdings all overshadowed Portugal herself. The Dutch were always the 'power' behind their colonies, for Portugal, the colonies were the power behind her.

[Aro]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
I do hope someone makes a Colonial America Mod with all the great Colonial Powers.

That's a great idea! (Now, I can see a real lightbulb over your head... ). Trip is working on a scenario about the civil war in USA, but he or someone else could work on this, maybe with the same map as a start point. Could be a very interesting mod!

About Portugal and Holland: the dutch were here in Brazil, in Pernambuco by the XVIIth century, and after all they did an amazing job, developing culture and spreading tollerance... Both are interesting civilizations, little ones but very clever. In a ideal world, whith an ideal Firaxis, they would be in the game...

[GhengisFarb™]

If no one makes a Colonial Mod by the time I get done with my other mods I'll make one. Just cause I'd like to have one that was sort of a free-for-all naval style.

[Aro]

I can't wait!

[yellfromhell]

GhengisFarb,
I agree with you in nearly everything.
I commited and error not saying "Pancho Villa was the only man IN ALL THE 20TH CENTURY that invaded USA continental territory". I appologize for that. About Pancho Villa being a bandit that robbed people, well, that can be discussed. If you consider legendary Robin Hood a bandit, well then Pancho Villa was a bandit. Anyway, if he was or not a bandit thats not the problem: in fact he did occupy a town in USA continental territory in the early 1900s. That doesnt look like what Al Capone did.

About the Dutch and Portugal, what you say its true, but: ¿Does the situation of the power changes anything of the importancec of the impire? Because in both cases the heads of the 'powers' was still in the european territory until the colonies got their independence.

Hugs

Yellfromhell

[yellfromhell]

Aro,

If Ghengis Farb builds a mod and includes the 'Federal League' leaded by my great procer Artigas, I`ll be glad to crush you and recover Rio Grande do Sul :=)

Hugs

Yellfromhell