Greatest empires of all time

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
I admit if sth is stronger than Poland. Russian input in the worldn history I consider bigger,..

I can't beleive this!!!

You said this!!!

Why I never heard it before?


Btw, very nice map. You are very talanted cartogapher. But you placed Moscow too close to your borders. It should be fixed.

P.S. Don't have time to answer your last post in our favorite thread (The post are growing and growing and growing. Did you noticed that?) I'll do it tommorow. Ok?

[Heresson]

No no no all bank of that river (???)
next to which Skopje is located belonged to Macedonia.
But that's nothing important. I won't argue. My main
claim is that they have the right to call themselves what
they want. If Greek character of Macedonia is so obvious,
people won't think of Macedonia as a Macedonia anyway,
as they don't think of Philadelphia as Philadelfia of
StPaul's...

"No way. They don't have Alaska, Finland, Poland, North of Syberia and some territories of Asia wich Russians have.
Ooops, almost forget we also controled Malta for some time. I wonder if Mongols ever heard about Malta."

But Russians never had China, Persia (except for the north),
all Armenia, Anatolia, Syria, Mesopotamia and India...
But You're right, these were separate states generally.
Oh, and Mongols ran through Poland, so...

"I can't beleive this!!!
You said this!!! Why I never heard it before?

Oh, You could have. Russian input in the world history
is bigger than Polish since the start of XIX century and that's a fact.
Lithbuanian was perhaps bigger in XIV century, but only then and usually
Lithuania had no significance. Anyway, Russian input is indeed big,
just I consider it bad and destructive ;P


I did. OK. Bye

[Sonic]

Heresson...
Russians had Armenia when they were known as Soviet Union
Also, I am not from primary school and I don't think size is everything, but it means much. OK, this is a comparement between Poland and Lithuania:
Size: Lithuania was bigger
Military: Lithuania had a better one
Culture: Poland wins here
Maybe Lithuania havent better military than Mongols or Russians, but it had one certainly better than Polish. As for global input, Lithuanian one was bigger than Polish. We could discuss if it was bigger or not than Poland-Lithuanian one, but since Poland-Lithuania was made of two nations, I did included here only the major one (I know, at the time of unification Poland was the major one but it wasn't so in Lithuanian peak times and at those times LGD was much more better than Poland than poland was better than LGD ages later. I could also let's say included here European Union cause it will become more or less country once, but I instead included various empires from current EU - Britain, Germany, Spain, France, Greece, Portugal. This is why I didn't included Poland-Lithuania and only included Lithuania. If list would have 30 countries instead of 24, I might have been also included Poland. If you think "global input" of Poland was better than ones of one of the included nations, please write it down here. The only one it could be discussed about is Zululand, but those Zulus also taken much land and had some input.

[Heresson]

"Russians had Armenia when they were known as Soviet Union"

Ignorant. It was abut 10% of historical Armenia.
All Wans, Manatzkerts, Sises, Karins, Karses were out.
And they had it not in USSR as it wasn't -theoretically-
Russian state, but under tzarate. Oh, they occupied major
part of it during the l;ast war with Turkey, but not all and it was temporary.

Size: Lithuania was bigger

Only temporarily,.
And again, applicare...
Would they use this word if Lithuania was as strong as Poland?

Military: Lithuania had a better one

You must be joking.
Anyway You showed it at Grunwald.

Culture: Poland wins here

Obviously/

Maybe Lithuania havent better military than Mongols or Russians, but it had one certainly better than Polish.

Then why we won the war for Halicz state, huh?

As for global input, Lithuanian one was bigger than Polish.

In XIV century we could quarrle, any other definitely Lithuania can't be compared to Poland.

We could discuss if it was bigger or not than Poland-Lithuanian one, but since Poland-Lithuania was made of two naons, I did included here only the major one (I know, at the time of unification Poland was the major one but it wasn't so in Lithuanian peak times and at those times LGD was much more better than Poland than poland was better than LGD ages later.

Prove your words.
It's mission impossible.

I could also let's say included here European Union cause it will become more or less country once, but I instead included various empires from current EU - Britain, Germany, Spain, France, Greece, Portugal. This is why I didn't included Poland-Lithuania and only included Lithuania. If list would have 30 countries instead of 24, I might have been also included Poland. If you think "global input" of Poland was better than ones of one of the included nations, please write it down here. The only one it could be discussed about is Zululand, but those Zulus also taken much land and had some input.

They had no imput. They are for "political correctness".
The only thing in Lithuania is that it took quite a big territory just to give it all to us, or to loose it to small
at the start Russia. We were dominant in this marriage from the start. And don't forget that one of interpreatations of "applicare" was anexion... Then,
there's no independant Lithuania...

Now Poland (until the end of Jagie??o's reign);
-The legend says that first Serbocroatian prince was son
of last Vistulian (southern-Polish) prince
-Poland was the only Slavic state with Slavic origin
except for that. Yes Serb, Ruthenia was created by
Vikings.
-by creating Gniezno church metropoly,
Poland annihilated Magdeburg's attaempt to subdue all
eastern Europe.
-Ibrahim Ibn Jakub calls state of Mieszko I the most
powerful Slavic state
-Poland played a major role in christianising Scandinavia,
Hungary and Prussia and Polabie.
-Polish tribes of Radymicze and Wiatycze settled in
northern Ruthenia (later being ruthenised...)...
- we created a part of Russian monster
-Polabian tribes of Obodrzyce helped Charlemagne
defeat Saxons.
-Poland christianised itself and thus finished out Polabian pagan states and enabled german expansion to the east.
-played an important role in pope vs "emperor" conflict
-played the role of regional might, conquering al(most)l
its neighbours for longer or shorter time, and putting its
candidates on Bohemian, Hungarian and Kievan (etc)
throne. captured Kiev twice and made Kiev unable to
attack Byzantines/Bulgaria again
-we christianised Lithuania
and made catholicism triumpf in eastern Europe for some
time.
-Polish thinker Pawe? W?odkowic was the first one in the
West to question pope's and emperor's laws to
heathens' lands
-we were continous trouble to the German "Roman Empire" and played important role in its civil wars
-Polish prince of Opole was the first western duke to
defeat Mongols in battle
-we brought Teutonic Knights over the Baltic and German
settlers to western Poland, and by that enabled German
imperialism.
-we had good dimplomatics and dinasty connections
Polish blood flowed not only in royal blood of Ruthenia Bohemia and Hungary, but also Sweden, Denmark, England, "Empire", and separate German states,
-Polish queen o first Sweden and later Denmark, mother
of Canute the Great, brought Norway to the fall.
etc
Now say sth about Lithuania
If my memory isn't failing me, in this time Lithuania was
(except for Mendog period) not too weak, but not playing
a major role in anything but its own life barbaric pagan state.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by MarkG
although looking at the issue, it seems that the albanians are claiming the dardanians as an illyrian tribe and use it in relation to kosovo, and therefore they might have issues with that name too

in greece we've always used the words "Skopia" and "Skopians" which is also a geographical term and fits perfectly

Yes, when I was in Kosovo all the Albanians loved the name Dardania. They kept naming all their restaurants and hotels Dardania. They also liked to tell people ancient Illyrians were Albanians but I never heard independent conformation of this.

[Sonic]

OK, global input of Lithuanian nation:
MIDDLE AGES:
-Lithuania was the last European state to christianaise (it wasn't that easy and I don't think it's Polish victory that it cristianised soon)
-Lithuania had some input to unification of Russia
-Lithuania was one of the largest continuous empires in Europe at a time (maybe largest) of it's peaks
-Lithuania fought against Mongols and this way helped Europe
-Lithuania fought against Teutonic Knights and this way stopped them to reach and maybe christianise Empire of the Golden Horde.
-Made an alliance with Empire of the Golden Horde (against Russians) and this way was one of the very few states ever (in middle ages) made alliance with Mongols
-With some help of Poland defeated Teutonic Knights in battle of Þalgiris, one of biggest battles ever fought in middle ages
-Lithuania tolerated other nations and religions unlike most of Europe. We had Lithuanians, Poles (catholic), Russians (orthodox), Jews (judaistic), Tatars, Karaims (muslim) and some people who chosen protestantism in our territory, but there was never inquisition or something like that.
XX AGE:
-In it's first independence since LGD, Lithuania was very economically advanced. We for example produced fighters (the only small country to do that) and Litas was very strong currency even at "great depression".
-In soviet times we were considered the most modern SSR
-Lithuania was the first of Soviet occupied countries to declare independence. This way it led Soviet Union to collapse (maybe it would still have collapsed, but some years later)
-In 1991 January Lithuania crushed soviets trying to reconquer it, this way finally crushing CCCP

As for famous people, we also had some, especially in politics. In middle ages many of dukes and politican leaders were quite known in countries around. In later days we had Vytautas Landsbergis, who was the leader of Sajûdis, the organisation which later declared independnce which later played important role in collapse of Soviet Union. Also we had pilots Steponas Darius and Stasys Girënas who were one of the first to fly through Atlantic (unfortunately they never reached destination), there is even a statue for them somewhere in Chicago. Other people include Antanas Mockus, Arvydas Sabonis, President Antanas Smetona, Antanas Gustaitis, Duke Gediminas, Duke Vytautas, King Mindaugas, etc.

I do obviously know poland also had famous people like Lech Walensa and Pope John Paul and I do agree that in the number of well known persons Poland could surpass Lithuania, but not by great number.

[MarkG]

Heresson,

1) the river is called Vardar by Slavs (Axios in Greek)

2) it's one thing if you talk about two cities, and another about a country and a region of a country

[Heresson]

Hi
-Lithuania was the last European state to christianaise (it wasn't that easy and I don't think it's Polish victory that it cristianised soon)

It depends on the borders of Europe, and some nations never got christianised.
And are You sure that some nations on the north of Russia were really christianised
at this time?

-Lithuania had some input to unification of Russia

Agree.

-Lithuania was one of the largest continuous empires in Europe at a time (maybe largest) of it's peaks

It was separated between members of the family, however and in constant civil war.

-Lithuania fought against Mongols and this way helped Europe

As well as Poland and Russia.

-Lithuania fought against Teutonic Knights and this way stopped them to reach and maybe christianise Empire of the Golden Horde.

As well as Poland. And they didn't want to christianise Golden Horde or whoever.
When they were proposed to get new lands on the southern Turkish border of Poland,
they weren't all that happy about it. Jan Olbracht wanted to force them, but he died
when he was preparing for that.

-Made an alliance with Empire of the Golden Horde (against Russians) and this way was one of the very few states ever (in middle ages) made alliance with Mongols

Phi. We did.
(Anyway it was Jagie??o as the king of Poland too, and the battle of Worskla was lost due to him)

-With some help of Poland defeated Teutonic Knights in battle of ?algiris, one of biggest battles ever fought in middle ages

Poland won this battle (Grunwald), while Lithuanians ran of the field and didn't come back.
After this battle, You left us alone with TK and we had to fight them ourselves.
Anyway, your Lithuanian Jagie??o wasted the chance after the battle to finish TK once
for all times. Some say he did that because TK were the only thing that kept Lithuania
and Poland togather

-Lithuania tolerated other nations and religions unlike most of Europe. We had Lithuanians, Poles (catholic), Russians (orthodox), Jews (judaistic), Tatars, Karaims (muslim) and some people who chosen protestantism in our territory, but there was never inquisition or something like that.

The same with Poland, as You know well.

-In it's first independence since LGD, Lithuania was very economically advanced. We for example produced fighters (the only small country to do that) and Litas was very strong currency even at "great depression".

Phi. The same with Poland. And airplanes; Our ?o? won a competition for the
best plain in its class shortly before the war. Z?oty was stabile.
Just of curiosity, tell me where exactly were your airplanes produced?

-In soviet times we were considered the most modern SSR

Nothing to be happy about, as Poland was more modern than USSR.

-Lithuania was the first of Soviet occupied countries to declare independence. This way it led Soviet Union to collapse (maybe it would still have collapsed, but some years later)

Nice. What Poland (Solidarity) started, You brought to the end.
Point for both.

-In 1991 January Lithuania crushed soviets trying to reconquer it, this way finally crushing CCCP

Nothing big.

In later days we had Vytautas Landsbergis, who was the leader of Saju^dis, the organisation which later declared independnce which later played important role in collapse of Soviet Union. Also we had pilots Steponas Darius and Stasys Girënas who were one of the first to fly through Atlantic (unfortunately they never reached destination), there is even a statue for them somewhere in Chicago. Other people include Antanas Mockus, Arvydas Sabonis, President Antanas Smetona, Antanas Gustaitis, Duke Gediminas, Duke Vytautas, King Mindaugas, etc.

I know Landbergis, Smetona, Giedymin, Witold and Mindog, but because of our common history You know
and because we are neighbours...


I do obviously know poland also had famous people like Lech Walensa and Pope John Paul and I do agree that in the number of well known persons Poland could surpass Lithuania, but not by great number.

Some reknown Poles and Polish-connected people (some! There were so many)

Writers:
-Noblists in literature;
-W.Szymborska -poethe
-Cz.Mi?osz -poeth
-H.Sienkiewicz - writer, author of "Quo Vadis"
-Reymont
-F.Dostojewski, great Russian writer, of Polish roots.
-J.Conrad (original name sounded more Polish...) -English writer of Polish roots.
-Appolinaire -French writer of Polish roots (again, original name wass different)
-A.Mickiewicz

Political and military leaders, politicians etc;
-tzarine Katherine I, I guess the first woman on Russian throne
(tzarine Katherine II was borned in Szczecin, she was a German)
-Roksolana, the only wife of sultan Suleiman the Magnificent
-general Bem, national heroe of Poland and Hungary
-T.Ko?ciuszko -known in Poland and America.
-J.Pu?aski -the same
-F.Dzier?y?ski - great communist (two guys that later took his place
in Soviet secret police were Poles too)
-J.Pi?sudzki (his brother is reknown in Japan as the first one
to start researches about autochtons of Japan islands)
-the one who stopped Soviet invasion on western Europe
-Lech Wa??sa, leader of "Solidarity"
-pope John Paul II
-Stanis?aw Leszczy?ski, king of Poland, g.d. of L., duke of Lorraigne (in France,
father of wife of Louis XVI)
-general Walter
-W.Wróblewski, genral of Paris commune, one of the leaders of I International
You could also know some other of our kings, but I guess I wrote enough

Musicians;
-F.Chopin (of french origin)
-I.Moniuszko
-H.Wieniawski
-I.Paderewski (politician too)
-Penderecki
-Zimmerman

Scientists, thinkers and stuff;
-Marie Curie (Sk?odowska before marriage)
-Kopernik -astronom
-Hevelius - German probably, but citizen of Poland, astronom
-Shopenhauer - German borned as citizen of Poland in patriotical Polish family
-B.Wapowski and Maciej z Miechowa -geografics
-I.?ukasiewicz - inventor of oil lamp, father of oil industry,
-A.Frycz-Modrzewski - theoretic of politics, his works were translated to
many languages and were quite reknown, though not in Poland itself at this time.
-B.Dybowski - great zoologist, lead researches in Bajka? lake, Russia.
-E.Malinowski - creator of trans-Andian railway
-i.Domeyko - geolog, mineralog, worked in Chile; he was the one to create
scientific base for using mineral resources.
-S.Drzewiecki, pioneer of airflight and submarines, aerodynamic tunels.
-P.E.Strzelecki -explorer; first one to climb the highest peak of Australia
-B.Malinowski - creator of functionalism theory in culture studies
-W.Taczanowski -one of the greatest ornitologs
-Z.Wróblewski and K.Olszewski turned air into liquid for the first time
-K.Funk - discovered vitamines
-all Polish mathematicians of middlewar era (Banach, Steinhaus Mazur etc)
-I don't remember the names, but it were Polish mathematicians to solve
the secret of Enigma
-a Pole of Silesia invented ant-fog machine used by allianst during ww2,
but again, his name...
-Kroplitz, a Jew of my city invented toothpaste, blisters and cosmetical
cremes (Nivea)
etc. We were always good at astronom and mathematic stuff.
Even today, the guy which name I can't recall now, discovered first other
than ours solar system,

Artists;
-X.Dunikowski - sculptures.
-K.Kobro -sculptures, Russian origin
-Abakanowicz -abakans
-Axentowicz -paintings
-Malczewski -paintings
-Wyspia?ski -paintings

Enough. Now I'm a bit ashamed that I don't remember everyone worth remembering
but that's quite enough already, isn't it.

[Heresson]

Hi
-Lithuania was the last European state to christianaise (it wasn't that easy and I don't think it's Polish victory that it cristianised soon)

It depends on the borders of Europe, and some nations never got christianised.
And are You sure that some nations on the north of Russia were really christianised
at this time?

-Lithuania had some input to unification of Russia

Agree.

-Lithuania was one of the largest continuous empires in Europe at a time (maybe largest) of it's peaks

It was separated between members of the family, however and in constant civil war.

-Lithuania fought against Mongols and this way helped Europe

As well as Poland and Russia.

-Lithuania fought against Teutonic Knights and this way stopped them to reach and maybe christianise Empire of the Golden Horde.

As well as Poland. And they didn't want to christianise Golden Horde or whoever.
When they were proposed to get new lands on the southern Turkish border of Poland,
they weren't all that happy about it. Jan Olbracht wanted to force them, but he died
when he was preparing for that.

-Made an alliance with Empire of the Golden Horde (against Russians) and this way was one of the very few states ever (in middle ages) made alliance with Mongols

Phi. We did.
(Anyway it was Jagie??o as the king of Poland too, and the battle of Worskla was lost due to him)

-With some help of Poland defeated Teutonic Knights in battle of ?algiris, one of biggest battles ever fought in middle ages

Poland won this battle (Grunwald), while Lithuanians ran of the field and didn't come back.
After this battle, You left us alone with TK and we had to fight them ourselves.
Anyway, your Lithuanian Jagie??o wasted the chance after the battle to finish TK once
for all times. Some say he did that because TK were the only thing that kept Lithuania
and Poland togather

-Lithuania tolerated other nations and religions unlike most of Europe. We had Lithuanians, Poles (catholic), Russians (orthodox), Jews (judaistic), Tatars, Karaims (muslim) and some people who chosen protestantism in our territory, but there was never inquisition or something like that.

The same with Poland, as You know well.

-In it's first independence since LGD, Lithuania was very economically advanced. We for example produced fighters (the only small country to do that) and Litas was very strong currency even at "great depression".

Phi. The same with Poland. And airplanes; Our ?o? won a competition for the
best plain in its class shortly before the war. Z?oty was stabile.
Just of curiosity, tell me where exactly were your airplanes produced?

-In soviet times we were considered the most modern SSR

Nothing to be happy about, as Poland was more modern than USSR.

-Lithuania was the first of Soviet occupied countries to declare independence. This way it led Soviet Union to collapse (maybe it would still have collapsed, but some years later)

Nice. What Poland (Solidarity) started, You brought to the end.
Point for both.

-In 1991 January Lithuania crushed soviets trying to reconquer it, this way finally crushing CCCP

Nothing big.

In later days we had Vytautas Landsbergis, who was the leader of Saju^dis, the organisation which later declared independnce which later played important role in collapse of Soviet Union. Also we had pilots Steponas Darius and Stasys Girënas who were one of the first to fly through Atlantic (unfortunately they never reached destination), there is even a statue for them somewhere in Chicago. Other people include Antanas Mockus, Arvydas Sabonis, President Antanas Smetona, Antanas Gustaitis, Duke Gediminas, Duke Vytautas, King Mindaugas, etc.

I know Landbergis, Smetona, Giedymin, Witold and Mindog, but because of our common history You know
and because we are neighbours...


I do obviously know poland also had famous people like Lech Walensa and Pope John Paul and I do agree that in the number of well known persons Poland could surpass Lithuania, but not by great number.

Some reknown Poles and Polish-connected people (some! There were so many)

Writers:
-Noblists in literature;
-W.Szymborska -poethe
-Cz.Mi?osz -poeth
-H.Sienkiewicz - writer, author of "Quo Vadis"
-Reymont
-F.Dostojewski, great Russian writer, of Polish roots.
-J.Conrad (original name sounded more Polish...) -English writer of Polish roots.
-Appolinaire -French writer of Polish roots (again, original name wass different)
-A.Mickiewicz

Political and military leaders, politicians etc;
-tzarine Katherine I, I guess the first woman on Russian throne
(tzarine Katherine II was borned in Szczecin, she was a German)
-Roksolana, the only wife of sultan Suleiman the Magnificent
-general Bem, national heroe of Poland and Hungary
-T.Ko?ciuszko -known in Poland and America.
-J.Pu?aski -the same
-F.Dzier?y?ski - great communist (two guys that later took his place
in Soviet secret police were Poles too)
-J.Pi?sudzki (his brother is reknown in Japan as the first one
to start researches about autochtons of Japan islands)
-the one who stopped Soviet invasion on western Europe
-Lech Wa??sa, leader of "Solidarity"
-pope John Paul II
-Stanis?aw Leszczy?ski, king of Poland, g.d. of L., duke of Lorraigne (in France,
father of wife of Louis XVI)
-general Walter
-W.Wróblewski, genral of Paris commune, one of the leaders of I International
You could also know some other of our kings, but I guess I wrote enough

Musicians;
-F.Chopin (of french origin)
-I.Moniuszko
-H.Wieniawski
-I.Paderewski (politician too)
-Penderecki
-Zimmerman

Scientists, thinkers and stuff;
-Marie Curie (Sk?odowska before marriage)
-Kopernik -astronom
-Hevelius - German probably, but citizen of Poland, astronom
-Shopenhauer - German borned as citizen of Poland in patriotical Polish family
-B.Wapowski and Maciej z Miechowa -geografics
-I.?ukasiewicz - inventor of oil lamp, father of oil industry,
-A.Frycz-Modrzewski - theoretic of politics, his works were translated to
many languages and were quite reknown, though not in Poland itself at this time.
-B.Dybowski - great zoologist, lead researches in Bajka? lake, Russia.
-E.Malinowski - creator of trans-Andian railway
-i.Domeyko - geolog, mineralog, worked in Chile; he was the one to create
scientific base for using mineral resources.
-S.Drzewiecki, pioneer of airflight and submarines, aerodynamic tunels.
-P.E.Strzelecki -explorer; first one to climb the highest peak of Australia
-B.Malinowski - creator of functionalism theory in culture studies
-W.Taczanowski -one of the greatest ornitologs
-Z.Wróblewski and K.Olszewski turned air into liquid for the first time
-K.Funk - discovered vitamines
-all Polish mathematicians of middlewar era (Banach, Steinhaus Mazur etc)
-I don't remember the names, but it were Polish mathematicians to solve
the secret of Enigma
-a Pole of Silesia invented ant-fog machine used by allianst during ww2,
but again, his name...
-Kroplitz, a Jew of my city invented toothpaste, blisters and cosmetical
cremes (Nivea)
etc. We were always good at astronom and mathematic stuff.
Even today, the guy which name I can't recall now, discovered first other
than ours solar system,

Artists;
-X.Dunikowski - sculptures.
-K.Kobro -sculptures, Russian origin
-Abakanowicz -abakans
-Axentowicz -paintings
-Malczewski -paintings
-Wyspia?ski -paintings

Enough. Now I'm a bit ashamed that I don't remember everyone worth remembering
but that's quite enough already, isn't it. I posted ones that I think some of You may know, and even not all.

[Heresson]

I'll spare myself a text about Polish input in world's history after halfo of XIV century, it would take me too much space and time if I wanted to have it in right proportions with what was written about Lithuania, he he he

[Saras]

Originally posted by Heresson
Poland won this battle (Grunwald), while Lithuanians ran of the field and didn't come back.
After this battle, You left us alone with TK and we had to fight them ourselves.

That is actually wrong. Read a non-Polish history book with some of the recent research into correspondence of the TK "management" after the battle and the ensuing siege of Marienburg.

The "running away" is a tartar maneuver - Vytautas learned well from his subjects. It is that maneuver that allowed to disperse the pursuing TK and relieve the faltering left Polish flank. It's not like Lithuanians ran away from battles. In fact, it would have been unprecedented (save Vorskla).

Hate to say it , but your sure as hell whopped sonic's arse with that list of celebs. But face it, there are 10 times less Lithuanians, so divide the list by ten .

[knowhow2]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
I'd go with China, but I'll admit that has a lot to do with their achievements in the appropriate timeframe. To have united a country of that sheer size, and to have it survive for such a long time against increasing odds is quite a feat. Plus, four massively influential inventions/discoveries were chalked up to their names - the printing press (centuries before Gutenberg brought it to Europe), the compass (both the magnetic and the mechanical chariot types), gunpowder (used in cannon and naval missiles, though the Chinese did not perfect any portable such weapons), and paper money (indirectly leading to an early banking economic structure).

However, this early self-sufficiency also worked against the Chinese. Later dynasties, convinced that the outside world had nothing to offer them, became introverted and refused to trade or have dealings with outsider powers such as Britain and France. Unfortunately, by that time the British were very good at making ships and cannon, as the Qing dynasty found out the hard way.

Although no longer the cultural superpower it once was, China is still culturally very important in Asia, as the vast numbers of overseas students here attest (especially the South Koreans, who have established "Little Koreas" in most major cities). Economically too China is heralded to be the next powerhouse in the coming century, though only time will tell. Most major companies and every major country has a policy as regards China, whether it's for business or for politics.

China's a wonderful country, past and present, and it's well worth a foreigner's time to visit. Although the political situation is still problematic to many nations, the people and the heritage here are fascinating and incredibly varied. A few trips to the South showed me how even individual towns had their own unique cultures and histories through thousands of years.

my vote

[Heresson]

I know it was a tatar maneuvre. Still, Lithuanians didn't come back. We are to take all the glory.

Oh, that astronom's name is Wolszczan or whatever.
I forgot about some important people... nevrmind.

Ah, there aren't many Lithuanians, but it is Lithuanian fault.
You had big empire, and if You had better culture You'd lithuanise people instead of getting polonised

I didn't ment right after the battle, just in next wars;
You got back your ?mud? and ,,,

[Geronimo]

I assume that the US can only have been regarded as an 'Empire' whilst it maintained direct military and political control of foreign territories. I don't think that period was very long, unless you want to include control of tiny territories like puerto rico. Perhaps the US doesn't really fit in the list. I'm also curious about Korea's inclusion in the list. When was their empire at it's height and what foreign territories did it have under it's control?

My vote is the British empire on basis of sheer size. However, I would also want to vote for the Roman Empire on the basis of it's historical legacy. IMHO it is the indirect foundation of the entire modern 'world' civilization.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sonic
What do you think was the greatest empire of all time (please drop patriotism here and tell your opinion based on size, strenght, loyality, ect.)

Germany

Why? Utter patriotism

[Saras]

Originally posted by Heresson
I know it was a tatar maneuvre. Still, Lithuanians didn't come back. We are to take all the glory.

Oh, that astronom's name is Wolszczan or whatever.
I forgot about some important people... nevrmind.

Ah, there aren't many Lithuanians, but it is Lithuanian fault.
You had big empire, and if You had better culture You'd lithuanise people instead of getting polonised

I didn't ment right after the battle, just in next wars;
You got back your ?mud? and ,,,

Lithuanians came back and relieved your left flank. Read a book.

[The Vagabond]

It's funny to see Poles and Lithuanias arguing with each other.

[Heresson]

Oh, even if Lithuanians came back, it were Poles to crush
TK.

And don't cheer, Russian friend. Królewiec (Kaliningrad)
will be trapped between us anyway

[Saras]

--Oh, even if Lithuanians came back, it were Poles to crush TK.

For chrissake, Lithuanians were already fighting for 1-2 hours when the poles were still decorating themselves in colored belts. And The cream of TK, together with the majority of their force died at the hands of Lithuanians. Just look at casualty figures for Poles and Lithuanians - they'll show who was getting more action.

[Sonic]

Poles alone hadn't been able to crush TK in that battle.
Our planes where callen ANBO and were constructed by aviaconstructor Antanas Gustaitis and his workers. I believe they were made in Paneveþys.
By the way, mostly Polish politicians lead Poland-Lithuania to annexation. One of major reasosn for crash of an empire are majorly considered giovernment, because PL was surrounded by absolutic monarchies (many of republics at a time were absolutic monarchies) but PL itself weren't able to upgrade it's government.
Lithuania maybe as you say always was in civil war, but that war was "light" and it never was true civil war, it was mostly a fight for ruler's place (and this fight rarely took long). We never had such civil war like let's say USA or many other nations where the country was split and civil war took years.
And yes, TK was the only thing that kept Poland and Lithuania allied. Jogaila knew that (I am however not saying he was good leader).
And as for number of people, you must agree that both Polish and Lithuanian history in much cases didn't depended on Poland or Lithuania, but on countries surrounding us. After WW2 Poland for example gained much territory in expense of Germany (Lithuania later also got Klaipëda, but this was much smaller than territory Poland got). After WW1 Poland also gained some land. While Lithuania was occupied by Russian Epire and Later by Soviet Union. You could say that if we were strong we had been able to win a war against Soviets but you know that Poland also wouldn't been able to do that. Lithuania even now doesn't got all lands from Poland and Belarus which were granted to it in 1939 (northeast Poland and western Belarus). And that is also mostly because of CCCP policy on Lithuanian SSR (you could say that we now should invade Poland and Belarus and retake lands but you know that this definitely wouldn't be the best decition - Lithuania is now not what it has been (and this is mostly becase of other nations as stated before)). Also, for current economic development of Poland USA helped much by removing credits Poland had to pay. As you can see, both Poland and Lithuania are almost unresponsible to their current state. XX age wasn't middle ages. And, by the way, in early XX age Poland wasn't as culturally developed as Lithuania, when we retaked Vilnius in 1939 it was culturally far back if comparing with Kaunas.

I am going out now for a bit but I hope I still will be able to discuss later...

[Heresson]

1)None's fate depends on himself
2)You mean ww2 there
3)Poland lost land, was reduced from 389 000sqkm
to 316 000sqkm, an it was Lithuania that gained land
-on cost of Poland. You didn't get all You wanted in the east? We lost all we had in the east and got some smaller
lands on the west and yet not all that we were promised,
as well as the eastern border was moved west a bit while
according to the treaties it was supposed to be moved
east (Grodno...)
4)Poland wasn't helped much by USA, not more than any other state. We still are paying back our debts, but in fact
I believe that USA isn't our biggest lend-giver.
5)With Kowno's/Kauna's cultural superiority over Wilno/Vilnius You must be joking. I guess that's Soviet or Lithuanian propaganda. Wilno/Vilnius was before the war one of major Polish cultural centres, as seen on the Nobell prise for Mi?osz... Cultural life of the city after the war was poor- but that's because Lithuania has taken it and filled it with its peasants, while Polish citizens of the city were mostly banned to the east. Many many reknown
Polish artists, writers etc come from Wilno, but all the cultural elite of the city "moved" to Poland after the war
(if it survived it). The problem is that Lithuanian nationalism prefers to keep quiet about Polish past of the city,as seen on your claim's example. Anyway, Lithuania could get Wilno back after Iww, but it didn't want to accept the rights of Poles there and it didn't accept "switzerlandisation" plan or making Polish the second official language. You got what You wanted.Wilno was far back after Kowno when it comes to LITHUANIAN culture - there was almost no Lithuanians there before the war., so how your culture could flourish there? Generally, Wilno, though provincional city, kept
a higher standart of culture than Kowno.
Sorry Saras that I'm writing Kowno instead Kowno/Kaunas
etc, but it's more natural to me and anyway You use only your names so I see no reason for me not to use only mines. Btw, You are wrong when it comes to the battle.
Lithuanian/Ruthenian/Tatar army destroyed just the right flank, while the center and left flank was destroyed
by Poles, as well as the great master was killed by them,
not Lithuanians.Anyway, I don't think it's a thing to quarrel about, the victory was common. but You (Sonic) started it!

[Sonic]

Heresson, why had we made Poland second language? Are you now making Lithuanian second language because of few Lithuanians living there? And no, Vilnius hadn't almost any Polish history it was build under LGD rule and only was annexed by Poland for several decades. As for names, Vilnius and Kaunas are commonly used ones. Same as Warshaw, etc. So you should I believe use those names of cities and we are not calling Warshaw Varðuva here for example. And Lithuania didn't got land on cost of Poland, it got it's own lands and capitol city. ANBO were produced before ww2. Poland had a huge economic crisis before debsts were nulified.

[Andemagne]

tough choise between Greece and Rome.
voted Rome. (it was so much ahead of its time)

[Saras]

Originally posted by Sonic
Poland had a huge economic crisis before debsts were nulified.

It wasn't technically a nullification, it was IIRC a Brady restructuring. I won't get into details of this complicated deal.

--"Sorry Saras that I'm writing Kowno instead Kowno"

Ahh forget it. VILNIAUS 'LIETUVOS RYTAS' CEMPIONAI!!!

[Heresson]

Why Polish should have been the second official language?
because it was the official Lithuanian language for some last
centuries, because even the first session of Lithuanian parliament was held in Polish, because half of Lithuania including all its capital spoke Polish....
Wilno is a historical Polish city (with its Lithuanity nor questioned, just Lithuania was treated as a part of Poland).

By Polish history I ment that since a long long time vast majority of its citizens were Polish-speakers and that all the city life was held in Polish.

Poland is constantly in economic crisis. Debts weren't nullified, they are being paid and will be paid until year 2024
or so... Still our economy is better than Lithuanian.
And always was.

[Saras]

--"Still our economy is better than Lithuanian"

Based on GDP per capita we are actually the same.

--"Poland is constantly in economic crisis"

Bull.

[Heresson]

What is Lithuanian?

[Heresson]

What is Lithuanian GNP that is.

[Saras]

4000 eur. Yours is approx the same, no?

[Az]

Behold , observer , the wonders of Apolyton; A thread called "Greatest empires of all time" desintegrates into a Polish-Lithuanian penis-waving contest. amazing isn't it?