Test of Time vs. Fantastic Worlds

Rune · July 15, 2002, 10:49

Hi.

I haven't been on this forum for a long time, mainly because I rarely play Civ anymore (shame, shame, yes I know). Anyway, I was considering getting Test of Time and perhaps make another try at the Wheel of Time scenario I started on years ago.

So what I would like to know is what are the differences between Fantastic Worlds and ToT when it comes to scenario creation? Which would you recommend?

Btw, has anyone tried GifXtractor with ToT? Does it work, or have they altered the dlls too?

Gothmog · July 15, 2002, 13:28

GifXtractor will work with ToT files. ToT uses the same DLL's as FW for leader portraits and what not.

ToT has several advantages over FW
1. an expanded event language
2. you can use up to 4 maps
3. 16 bit graphics
4. the event stack is larger, so you can code more events

ToT has these disadvantages
1. The unit shield was changed in such a way that it makes it very hard to tell who owns a unit.
2. The combat animation was disabled, so it is very hard to tell where combat is happening.

To me these last two features are deal breakers, so I don't play ToT, it's too hard on my eyes.

Also in ToT, and I don't classify this a plus or minus, there are no in-game editors.

Probably Techumseh will post here with some reasons why you should use ToT, so stay tuned.

Mercator · July 15, 2002, 14:38

Getting ToT is a must! I must admit, I haven't quite gotten into it yet, I haven't really tried those extra games it offers, and the graphics are somewhat dark (and I'm too lazy to change them), but considering the amount of money I paid for it, it's more than worth it.

I have to recommend another program for ToT DLL's (unfortunately

), namely url=http://www.users.on.net/johnson/resourcehacker/]Resource Hacker[/url]. That program is a "true" resource editor, so the filesize of the images is no longer an issue (i.e. GIFs can also be larger than the original). It only works for 32-bit files (i.e. MGE and ToT) though.

Rune · July 15, 2002, 14:55

Thanks for the tip about Resource Hacker. Looks really promising (even though it might make GifX obsolete

)

Have the units.gif, terrain.gif etc. also been changed to 16bit color? If so, does that make them more difficult to work with?

How does the four maps work? Can you have different terrain/city/unit graphics for each of the maps, or do they share the same graphic files?

Is there no indication at all where battle occurs? Sounds really strange to me...

Dr. Nick · July 15, 2002, 16:04

Where can I rip ToT?

LDiCesare · July 15, 2002, 18:10

Each map has its own graphics. Units are allowed to go on certain maps as listed in rules.txt, and may or may not travel by thmeselves (rules.txr again). Cities are map-independent (civ-related). There definitely is a way to see where combat occurs. It is so natural to me that I can't think there is no animation. What are the spr files for? But then I didn't play other civ2 versions, and civ (1) had no anim at all so I don't miss that.

ravagon · July 15, 2002, 19:54

Quote:

Originally posted by LDiCesare
There definitely is a way to see where combat occurs. It is so natural to me that I can't think there is no animation. What are the spr files for? But then I didn't play other civ2 versions, and civ (1) had no anim at all so I don't miss that.

It was the function of the .spr files to play the attack animation of each of the individual units - hence the anims in civ2 weren't used anymore. As there wasn't a handy editor to create new .spr anims for new units, ToT was left with any new static units having no anims.
I'd thought the patch had taken care of this. ie: select the turn off animations option => re-enabled the original attack anim in the icons.gif (even if it was buggy and the .spr's weren't always disabled) but I guess I was wrong ...

El Awrence: I don't think its abandonware yet so you might have trouble getting it "semi-legally". But there's this place called E-bay...

Gothmog · July 15, 2002, 21:40

The ToT graphics format is 16 bit or 24 bit bmp. Gif is out because it has to be 8 bits although the title.gif is still supported (don't think title.bmp would work).

The spr files are the animations for the game included units. If you make custom units, you have to disable the animations. One way is by the game option, the other way is to get rid off the spr files by deleting them, renaming them, moving them another directory. The game will run without them. It uses the images in units.bmp in that case.

Dr. Nick · July 15, 2002, 22:57

I can't afford to purchase anything in dollars or over the net as international credit cards here have been... suspended indefinetly.

techumseh · July 16, 2002, 01:49

Hi Rune, thanks for the program. It does indeed work with ToT. I used it to change a number of gifs in several of the dll.'s in the ToT scenario "Red October," available from my site, here:
http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/

Quote:

Originally posted by Gothmog
ToT has several advantages over FW
1. an expanded event language
2. you can use up to 4 maps
3. 16 bit graphics
4. the event stack is larger, so you can code more events

All true, though this hardly does justice to the increased range and number of events now possible with ToT. ToT events are really in another league altogether. The possibilities have only begun to be explored.

Other specific features include an impassible terrain flag and override flag, invisible units, unbribable units and undisbandable units. Units and techs can be made civilization specific. Plus a few other odds and ends.

Quote:

ToT has these disadvantages
1. The unit shield was changed in such a way that it makes it very hard to tell who owns a unit.
2. The combat animation was disabled, so it is very hard to tell where combat is happening.

I agree. Given that units are also 50% taller, it creates a cluttered looking map at times. Hardly a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Also in ToT, and I don't classify this a plus or minus, there are no in-game editors.

Me neither. It's a little more fiddley, but not a big problem. IMHO, what kept ToT from having more staying power (other than being released in the looming shadow of Civ3) was the failure to include an animated sprite editor. Since you can't edit the sprites, which are of poor quality anyway, all scenarios and mods must replace them with static graphics, ala FW/MGE. You just have to look at the fan creation work being done on Civ3 animated units here on Poly and over at CivFanatics to realize what a mistake this was.

So Rune, if you're looking for another project, decoding the SPR. file and developing a workable sprite editor for ToT would make you a legitimate hero in my books!

Quote:

Probably Techumseh will post here with some reasons why you should use ToT, so stay tuned.

What are the chances?

techumseh · July 16, 2002, 02:12

Carl, check your private messages.

Rune · July 16, 2002, 04:56

Quote:

Originally posted by techumseh
Hi Rune, thanks for the program. It does indeed work with ToT. I used it to change a number of gifs in several of the dll.'s in the ToT scenario "Red October," available from my site, here:
http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/

Nice to hear my little program is still being used. Does that mean that the ToT dlls still use 8 bit gifs for graphics? IIRC GifX doesn't support bmp, but I might be wrong.

Quote:

Other specific features include an impassible terrain flag and override flag, invisible units, unbribable units and undisbandable units. Units and techs can be made civilization specific. Plus a few other odds and ends.

Sounds great. Ebay, here I come...

Quote:

So Rune, if you're looking for another project, decoding the SPR. file and developing a workable sprite editor for ToT would make you a legitimate hero in my books!

Has there been done any research on this so far? It would be a great feature for GifX... Don't get too high hopes though. I have no experience whatsoever with animation files (though I didn't know anything about gifs when I started GifX either...). However, if someone sends me an SPR file at rune@krokodille.com I will at least take a look and see what I can find out.

ravagon · July 16, 2002, 05:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Rune

Has there been done any research on this so far? It would be a great feature for GifX... Don't get too high hopes though. I have no experience whatsoever with animation files (though I didn't know anything about gifs when I started GifX either...). However, if someone sends me an SPR file at rune@krokodille.com I will at least take a look and see what I can find out.

A poster who went by the username of DracoOmega (IIRC) began some such enterprize a while ago. No idea how far he got with it though. There was a thread about it in the ToT forum.

Rune · July 16, 2002, 05:12

I just discovered that there exists an official spr tool for CTP. Has anybody tried it with ToT?

Mercator · July 16, 2002, 15:10

I just had a look at that, but I don't think it's any good for ToT. "Sprite" is a pretty general term, used for just about every pixel-based graphics resource, but they can all be in very different formats.

Oh yes, and the images in the DLLs are still GIFs. It's just the regular graphics that have changed from 256 color GIFs/BMPs to 16/24-bit BMPs.

WarVoid · July 16, 2002, 21:54

BOO! HISS! SPEW!

DOWN WITH TOT! LONG LIVE FW!

Ok, I ranted.

*wanders back into the shadows*

Mr. Oobir · July 16, 2002, 23:00

Quote:

Originally posted by WarVoid
BOO! HISS! SPEW!

DOWN WITH TOT! LONG LIVE FW!

Ok, I ranted.

*wanders back into the shadows*

YOU ARE AFRAID OF CHANGE! CHANGE IS HERE AND CHANGE IS GOOD! DEAL WITH IT!

*slinks into cave with the rest of the seemingly eternal Chieftains*

St Leo · July 17, 2002, 01:56

Vive la revolution!

Wait a second... I am the Emperor!

Into the dungeons with the lot of them.

Case · July 17, 2002, 06:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Oobir
*slinks into cave with the rest of the seemingly eternal Chieftains*

Why don't you do what every other wannabe prince does: spam the Apolyton/Community board

Mr. Oobir · July 17, 2002, 17:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Case

Why don't you do what every other wannabe prince does: spam the Apolyton/Community board

Anyway, on the topic: A .spr editor would be a most wonderful utility.

DarthVeda · July 17, 2002, 18:12

Somebody was working on that some time ago, and I haven't heard anything since.

Rune · July 17, 2002, 18:20

Yes. Someone called DracoOmega claimed he was almost done with such a program. Does anybody know more about this?

LDiCesare · July 18, 2002, 15:38

I think ToT allows to specify barbarian units don't vanish after some time. Is that correct? Could it be used to specify barb-unit death events in addition to civ-unit death events?

techumseh · July 18, 2002, 15:49

Yes and yes.

Rune · July 22, 2002, 14:05

How about the number of civilizations? Is seven still the maximum in ToT, or can you have more?

techumseh · July 22, 2002, 19:12

Seven. For all the extra stuff, it's still Civ2.

Rune · July 22, 2002, 19:23

Ah well. Guess it was too much to hope for (I've become a bit spoiled after playing EU2). With four huge parallell maps it would be great to have some more civs...

Mercator · July 23, 2002, 04:31

Well, to some extent you can fiddle around with this... You can make a civilization that isn't able to transport anything between maps, but let them have cities on multiple maps.
Give them different units for each of their different maps and you'd have fairly independant civilizations (only the name and actual diplomatic relations can't be split up).