US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies - Page 7

Lemmy · July 17, 2002, 14:46

uhm, it wasn't meant as a question...
And it wasn't pointless, it was a response to your question.

drake · July 17, 2002, 15:04

Does you seeing something suspicious make you a spy? Does reporting that suspicious activity somehow make you a bad person or a commie? Or does it just make you a normal person who has the same concerns as everyone else?

Do these people in this pilot program carry a gun? A baton? Can they arrest the suspicious people? As far as I can see all these people are asked to do is call 1800tips or whatever it is instead of calling 911, who would in turn call 1800tips.

Know what I mean?

Right now, if I'm in the program or not, I would call the police if something looked real suspicious in my neighborhood. Wouldn't you?

How is someone doing their job and keeping their eyes and ears open any worse? Explain, rather than saying its the KGB or secret police or this is the end of america blah blah blah.

Victor Galis · July 17, 2002, 15:14

Quote:

Does you seeing something suspicious make you a spy? Does reporting that suspicious activity somehow make you a bad person or a commie? Or does it just make you a normal person who has the same concerns as everyone else?

-Yes.

Quote:

How is someone doing their job and keeping their eyes and ears open any worse?

-It encourages ultranationalists to report "suspicious" activity. Maybe you are too blind to realize that if you gather 10 million people, at least one of them will think something is extremely suspicious that leads to law enforcement violating civil liberties for nothing. Heck, I'd bet you'd get 100 cases a week or more.

reds4ever · July 17, 2002, 15:15

Quote:

Originally posted by drake

What the hell does being arab have to do with being a terrorist? You said that. Not me pal.

that was cheap and predictable, come on, get real! who do you think this thing is going to impact on?

and whats with the 'pal'?

DaShi · July 17, 2002, 15:18

I'm watching you!

drake · July 17, 2002, 15:21

So for instance, if a prowler was in your neighbors yard you wouldnt call the police or inform your neighbor? Wouldn't want to be a spy or a commie right? Yeah thats a good a quality american there.

In your world of locked doors and closed shades, its no wonder any light ever gets in your room.

Quote:

It encourages ultranationalists to report "suspicious" activity. Maybe you are too blind to realize that if you gather 10 million people, at least one of them will think something is extremely suspicious that leads to law enforcement violating civil liberties for nothing. Heck, I'd bet you'd get 100 cases a week or more.

Again you assume the worst in people. Theres nothing to realize victor, youre speculating as to what might be, not what is. I don't pretend I can see the future. Why do you?

reds4ever · July 17, 2002, 15:24

if you can't see the future, look at the past, there's plenty of evdence there.

drake · July 17, 2002, 15:28

Quote:

who do you think this thing is going to impact on?

From the way some of the people around here talk, a great life changing event is going to happen to each and every american very soon. In fact, I'm going to my bomb shelter to hang out because the end of america is near

Frankly, Arabs are being watched now like never before ANYWAY. Theres no concern over that? So why the concern now? Because its on the internet?

reds4ever · July 17, 2002, 15:38

Quote:

Originally posted by drake

In fact, I'm going to my bomb shelter to hang out because the end of america is near

has it got an internet connection, or is this goodbye?

drake · July 17, 2002, 15:45

Haha, sorry to disappoint you but no, my shelters got a hookup

Besides, someones gotta stick around and disagree with people around here

Victor Galis · July 17, 2002, 15:47

Quote:

So for instance, if a prowler was in your neighbors yard you wouldnt call the police or inform your neighbor? Wouldn't want to be a spy or a commie right?

-How is that the same as spying on someone's house?

Quote:

In your world of locked doors and closed shades, its no wonder any light ever gets in your room.

-Light is bad.

Quote:

Again you assume the worst in people. Theres nothing to realize victor, youre speculating as to what might be, not what is. I don't pretend I can see the future. Why do you?

-Because I have enough intelligence to make a prediction, and because I have lived under a system where people spied on their fellow countrymen, and suffered a bit indirectly from it.

Quote:

From the way some of the people around here talk, a great life changing event is going to happen to each and every american very soon.

-If it happens to 1000, that's too many.

drake · July 17, 2002, 15:51

Its no the same as spying at someones house, but this plan (as far as I could tell) isn't about spying on people in the sense one thinks of spying. It's merely people doing their jobs while keeping their eyes and ears open for suspicious activity. No more no less.

Heres my prediction: 10 years from now, America will fundamentally be the same country it is now.

reds4ever · July 17, 2002, 16:40

not to nitpick Drake, but so much has changed since 9/11 who can see 10 years down the line?

Some of the measures being taken in America now, in the 'Defence of the Homeland' would have been unimaginable to the American people 12 months ago, they'd have been political suicide, but because of 9/11 they are 'patriotic' and if you oppose them youre scaremonger

Garth Vader · July 17, 2002, 16:47

This program looks like the Nightwatch, for anybody who watched B5.

It's not in itself a bad plan, but it lays the groundwork for a system which can be massively abused. The point in which mere watching changes to harassing people with different views can be crossed real fast.

Lemmy · July 17, 2002, 16:49

Quote:

... and if you oppose them youre scaremonger

the technical term would be "a chicken with your head cut off"

DinoDoc · July 17, 2002, 17:18

Quote:

Postal Service won't join TIPS program
By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - The Postal Service has decided not to take part in a government program touted as a tip service for authorities concerned with terrorism, but which is being assailed as a scheme to cast ordinary Americans as "peeping Toms."

....

http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/news/...cs/3681788.htm

Hopefully, this will make some of you feel a little better.

chequita guevara · July 17, 2002, 17:50

Good for them.

Victor Galis · July 17, 2002, 18:14

Quote:

It's merely people doing their jobs while keeping their eyes and ears open for suspicious activity. No more no less.

-Which is very much what the communist secret police informers did.

That's good DinoDoc, but nothing makes me feel better than the fact that Bush's approval rating is now at 62% and falling.

Sinapus · July 17, 2002, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

Don't try to tell me, that Russia has no secret service, whatever its name is, and that nobody from the old KGB serves in it.

Without breaking into laughter?

Sinapus · July 17, 2002, 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by drake
Guess what everyone, people can spy on you now and report bogus info to the police, fbi or any other government agency they want to. Just because your friggin milk man thinks you're suspicious and calls this tips line doesnt mean 10 minutes later some swat team is going to knock the guys door down. The information gathered would obviously be sorted and filtered. Every single tip reported is not going to be acted on. Or do you guys disagree?

If it is possible now, then why make a new system?

Sorry, I'm not buying the stated purpose for it. At best it's a useless "do something" bit of PR. At worst, I'm sure you'll be wondering why History whacked you over the head with a club. Doubt you'd listen to what it was saying, though...

Mr. Nice Guy · July 17, 2002, 20:03

I don't think the government will recruit everyone that signs up for this program. I'm sure that they will carefully screen applicants to ensure that they can be trusted.

Mr. Nice Guy · July 17, 2002, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by drake
It's merely people doing their jobs while keeping their eyes and ears open for suspicious activity. No more no less.

I'm not so sure about that. I think the government will do everything it can to get this 4% actively involved in keeping the community safe. It will probably even work to get these citizen "spies" to team up and work together.

St Leo · July 17, 2002, 21:07

I don't think the government will recruit everyone that signs up for this program. I'm sure that they will carefully screen applicants to ensure that they can be trusted.

Only the trusted can betray trust.

I think the government will do everything it can to get this 4% actively involved in keeping the community safe.

Could it round up those 4% into concentration camps and keep those safe? My community is safe enough without any crackheads reporting things they see me do while on dope.

Gibsie · July 17, 2002, 21:11

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Does that statement work in the opposite direction as well? Would you say that the people oppossed to the TIPS program are supportive of the spread of the CCTV cameras? Because I'd like to know British feelings about that.

Only if the two situations are equal, so, no, it doesn't work both ways. I would consider this spying to be slightly more disturbing than the use of CCTV in Britain.

Basically, X is worse than Y (X being TIPS, Y being CCTV), thus while it's reasonable to accept Y whilst damning X, you can't reasonably accept X and damn Y.

Mr. Nice Guy · July 17, 2002, 22:42

Quote:

Originally posted by St Leo
Only the trusted can betray trust.

Rarely.

Quote:

Could it round up those 4% into concentration camps and keep those safe? My community is safe enough without any crackheads reporting things they see me do while on dope.

That's your problem, crackhead.

Mr. Nice Guy · July 17, 2002, 22:48

http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/lawsregs/patriot.pdf

This link requires that you have the Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to view it.

Alexander's Horse · July 17, 2002, 22:51

They should take a leaf out of the nazi's book

Recent research has shown that the nazis controlled the German population with surprisingly small numbers of gestapo, as few as a section of 2 or 3 officers even for major German cities or even a whole region with millions of people. They were able to do this because ordinary Germans were more than willing to monitor and report ot the gestapo on their neighbours without being recruited for the purpose.

Given the patriot movement in the U.S. I'm sure many U.S. citizens are similarly motivated to spy on their neighbours.

Sad really.

Lung · July 17, 2002, 23:20

You just don't get it, do you, Drake?!

As they say, the proof is in the pudding, so how about you pull your finger out of your arse and check out the pudding?

It's not the neighbourhood watch that's bad, but the denial of natural justice. Let's do a list of things that can/will happen and see if it's right or wrong. This is only my opinion, but at least this way we can argue the facts. You're saying that because we should agree with it in principle, we should agree with whatever form it takes. That is absurd! Anyway, here goes.....

Watch for suspicious activity: good
Report suspicious activity to authorities: good
Authorities make enquiries: good
Authorities come into your home without a warrant: bad
Authorities hide surveillance devices in your home without notifying you: bad. Under common law, citizens have the right to know when they are suspected of illegal activity. This would be a gross denial of common law.
Authorities make report on alleged suspect: What? No charges have been laid?! Doesn't a report constitute a presumption of fact? Isn't anyone who reads that report in years to come going to presume the suspect to be suspicious, irrespective of substantiation?

This is not about waiting an extra few minutes at airports. Nor is it about formalising what already happens, because under your current laws, when accusations are made against you, you are entitled to know unless they are dismissed without further investigation. Reports cannot be made about you unless you are formally charged. If the charges are ultimately dismissed, no formal reference to your presumed guilt can be kept in official records. It's these changes to common law that are the issue, not whether or not people should be alert for terrorist activity!

I also imagine the individual states might have something to say about their laws being made redundant whenever it's suits the federal government

Ramo · July 17, 2002, 23:27

USA uber alles.

Alexander's Horse · July 18, 2002, 00:07

Most of you don't remember the Cold War. This kind of mindless snooping and snitching is nothing new. It wasn't confined to the communist countries.

Ever heard of "reds under the beds"?