US Congress lobbies for the return of the marbles of Parthenon to Greece. - Page 5

VetLegion · July 17, 2002, 19:27

dont evade the answer

why is it you greeks are such a nationalistic bunch? why dont you like free speach? when will you give rights to minorities?

these are legitimate questions and I am very concerned. disturbed even.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 19:31

sorry vetlegion, I will not respont to your trolling today

If you want to relax just download my two videos in my sig

VetLegion · July 17, 2002, 19:35

I hit a nerve didnt I?

anyway I should go to sleep. and no I wont download any revolutionaly videos unless they are porn

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 19:40

hardly vetlegion.

about the videos, well they are not porn, exactly.

but if you have a 56K connection better go to sleep and see them in the morning

Shi Huangdi · July 17, 2002, 19:54

"You are just pissed because you got slammed dunk hard and fast by me over each and every confrontation we ever had."

Hahahahahahahahahaha, you are a pathetic troll. I sent you into a complete frenzy last time when I explained to the visiting Turk how you are a right-wing nationalist. Or how about the time I exposed you as a CIA agent? I crush you just like Kemal Ataturk crush you.

"The ottoman empire was crumbling anyway."

You still haven't given us any neutral sources regarding the Greek War of Independence to go against the common historical belief that Greece was saved by allies.

" You wouldn;t know "ignorance" if it bited you in the ass Shi!"

Sorry pattycakes. You said something that was blatanty wrong, and I corrected your idoicy. You lose.

"The only "proof" you have for that is Fulmaier."

Sorry, Boshko has already shown you to be wrong, their have been many threads about this already. It is just so funny in order to back yourself up you go to a letter to the editory.

"It's just that supporters of fascism and tirtures as well as genocide and murders of political prisoners turn my stomach."

Proof is in his own words, people. Paitkis admits my trolling gets to him!

"You hate Greeks with a passion."

No. I love MarkG.

And I love you, too

. You bring so much laughter into my life!

"meanwhile you keep supporting a murderous regime, namely that of Turkey"

I wonder how many more time Pattycakes will shriek out "You support Turkey! You are a murderer"

"So yes you are qualified for being called a murderer of peoples."

Murderer of peoples? You know that would make a good sig!

"Plus, i think it pisses you off BIG TIME that Turkey is in shreds both economically as well as socially and politically while Greece is going forward at full speed."

Nope, so long as Turkey continues to support USA dominance in the Middle East I am fine. It makes it easier though Turkey being a democratic state.

"Which is it?"

Entertainment value.

About Kurdistan, say what you want, but there is certainly no genocide there. Considering how the KLA was defeated and Turkey occupies Kurdistan and STILL Kurds make up 20% of Turkey's population show that Greek claims of Genocide are lies.

Have a nice day, my friend Paitkis.

Imran Siddiqui · July 17, 2002, 20:04

Quote:

I'm going to regret this, but what made the Ottomans so barbaric?

You are wasting your time. Paiktis is probably the biggest nationalist on these forums, and interestingly, he's Greek. In his mind the Greeks can do no wrong, and the Turks can do no right. Hell, even Mark is a little like this. I wonder if the Greek schools promote brainwashing or something.

And no, that was no troll. Simply the truth of what I've observed.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Hahahahahahahahahaha, you are a pathetic troll. I sent you into a complete frenzy last time when I explained to the visiting Turk how you are a right-wing nationalist. Or how about the time I exposed you as a CIA agent? I crush you just like Kemal Ataturk crush you.

No comment needed here I think. The empathy is obvious

Quote:

You still haven't given us any neutral sources regarding the Greek War of Independence to go against the common historical belief that Greece was saved by allies.

There is no such perception in Greek, international or even turkish historians.

It would do your dilusional mind some good not to interpet your fantasies or trollings as undisputated reality

Quote:

Sorry pattycakes. You said something that was blatanty wrong, and I corrected your idoicy. You lose.

I said that Turkey roled over and played dead which is exactly what happened. Meanwhile the ontribution of Greece was immense condering its size. And that you can't refute either.

Quote:

Sorry, Boshko has already shown you to be wrong, their have been many threads about this already. It is just so funny in order to back yourself up you go to a letter to the editory.

First, you dont have to apoligize so frequently.

Second Boshko trolled and was called on it. For all other info see my previous post, little deranged turk

Quote:

Proof is in his own words, people. Paitkis admits my trolling gets to him!

Yes, it bothers me when people support tortures and massacres. I already said so. Its not you so dont take it as a praise. It is a general repulsion Ihave to these sort of people. Luckily they are very few, Namely in Poly, only you.

Quote:

No. I love MarkG.

And I love you, too

. You bring so much laughter into my life!

hmm, I think that this time I have you really cornerned

Quote:

I wonder how many more time Pattycakes will shriek out "You support Turkey! You are a murderer"

You thrive on tortures and murders committed by Turkey. You will hear it every time you do this. Untill you stop.

Quote:

Murderer of peoples? You know that would make a good sig!

Thanks

But due credit is to go to the european left wing

It is the one calling people like you this. I just thought it was 100% appropriate for you

Quote:

Nope, so long as Turkey continues to support USA dominance in the Middle East I am fine. It makes it easier though Turkey being a democratic state.

Oh, I think it does bother you. And Turkey is not a democratic state by any means. But keep your propaganda, noones buying it anymore anyway.

Quote:

Entertainment value.

And yet you seemlike you try to fight a bad curse

Quote:

About Kurdistan, say what you want, but there is certainly no genocide there. Considering how the KLA was defeated and Turkey occupies Kurdistan and STILL Kurds make up 20% of Turkey's population show that Greek claims of Genocide are lies.

The EU talks about slaughters of civilians and this is true. Kurds will constitute 40% of turkey's population in 2020 so kurdish independence is coming despite the better efforts of Turkey's paramilitary whoch murdered tons of civilians through the years.

Quote:

Have a nice day, my friend Paitkis.

If you cant beat them, join them huh?

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 20:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You are wasting your time. Paiktis is probably the biggest nationalist on these forums, and interestingly, he's Greek. In his mind the Greeks can do no wrong, and the Turks can do no right. Hell, even Mark is a little like this. I wonder if the Greek schools promote brainwashing or something.

And no, that was no troll. Simply the truth of what I've observed.

well all I can say my dear Imran is that your change from a proponent of american capitalism and the american republicans to a strong (and substansive I might add) critic of american policies after the recent "muslim-scare" in the US, provide evidence that noone is ever really lost

so there might be hope even for.. Shi

BTW you really dont know me and your observations are not very penetrating as I see, so you might as well give up

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 20:32

BTW Shi seems to have left the arena bruised yet one more time. So what else is new?

He seems to have an unprecedented "ability" to lose all the arguments he ever had the unfortunate inspiration to entagle himself in

I just hope he did some reading on Turkey's most recent massacres... Of course Greek (EU - oops) propaganda.

Of course.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 20:45

BTW Imran you saw that others which know the history of these parts far better than you subscribed to my position (which is not actually mine but that of historians).

So there's something wrong with your reasoning, if you think it's all Paiktis' "nationalism". Nationalism is cool for trolling sodding types like Shi but facts are facts and as you saw are delivered by others, not me.

Plkus it always amuses me that's it's just the usual trio Shi, Boshko and Faeelin that have a bief with Greece.

Shi is the one who got it up the (ahem) hard though and now it has become a habbit for him.

Faeelin · July 17, 2002, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by VetLegion
actually, jenisaries (janjicari) were not only a greek-turkish phenomenon, turks stole children from mothers in the entire balkans. later, they would become a significant force in turkish politics, but their initial purpose was to be fanatical soldiers. and they were.
but it was a very very cruel practice. it fits to modern definition of genocide.

Yes, it was very, very, very bad.

But:

Janissaries had oppurtunities for massive social advancement, and would later on be essential in dictating the sultan himself.

Not to make light of it, of course. But considering how they weren't converted by the sword (as was the standard practice in Spain with the inquisition), and were free from all other military service, it wasn't as if they were enslaved.

Besides that, all the Ottomans demanded of the greeks were higher taxes.

For all the insults the Ottomans are getting, get this:

CHRISTIAN SERFS FLED TO THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ACROSS THE BORDER.

I hate to say this in caps, but the point has to be made. These people knew the difference between bad and worse. This was not a one time occurrence, either. In every situation where the Ottomans bordered Christians, this happened.

You're calling the only culture in Europe at the time that allowed multiple religions, besieged Vienna, defeated Venice, encouraged the arts, and built what was once one of the greatest cities in Europe barbaric?

Here's a quote, btw, about the reaction of the Ottoman entrance into Athens:

"o the Ottomans it was known as the "city of the wise," and Mehmed, their "wise and great Philhellene monarch" was duly impressed by its relics of classical antiquity. He especially admired the Acropolis. He treated the Athenians magnanimously, confirming their civil liberties and exemption from taxes, but delighted them especially... by granting priveliges to the Orthodox clergy".

Oh, here's a choice bit:

"Hencefoward Pax Ottomanica reigned there, replacing the feuds of the Franks, while the Greek people were treated with reasonable tolerance-unburdened with excessive taxation, exempted from the tribute of children, permitted freedom to trade and to elect their own local government."

MOBIUS · July 17, 2002, 21:09

Personally I'm all for the Elgin Marbles returning to Greece, but whenever I see Piaktis bleating on about it - I always change my mind!

We (Europe) keep your tinpot little country propped up - have done for ages. And before you start whining on about Turkish human rights problems - look closer to home in the country with the worst human rights record in Europe...

You're such a rabid nationalist you blind yourself to what's happening in your own backyard...

Sure we took your Marbles (In between protecting your sorry little country), they were bought, maybe not from the right people but there was a real probability at the time that they were going to be turned into materials for concrete...

But do you deserve them back? Athens was a pollution hell-hole when I was there and the Acropolis was literally crumbling away from the smog - then there's your appalling human rights record... Those poor bloody Albanians get a really raw deal in Greece don't they, I've heard it's about as bad as what the Serbians were dishing in Kosovo - the only difference is there's no KLA. Yet!

Sh1t! You guys won't even let some other country call themselves Macedonia to the extent that you threatened them with economic sanctions!

Come back when you deserve it!

Nyah Nyah Nyah-Nyah!

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:14

well since vetlegion isnot around I dont see why not replying to you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Faeelin

Yes, it was very, very, very bad.

Small cchildren were teared away from the arms of their crying mothers AGAIN AND AGAIN and you call that too bad?

I think there's something wrong with your morality.

Let's see your apologes for these horrors

Quote:

But:

Janissaries had oppurtunities for massive social advancement, and would later on be essential in dictating the sultan himself.

So you say that all the tother people lived in poverty. You are correct.

Quote:

Not to make light of it, of course. But considering how they weren't converted by the sword (as was the standard practice in Spain with the inquisition), and were free from all other military service, it wasn't as if they were enslaved.

They were stolen from the embrace of their mothers faeelin. get this through your thick skull.

Quote:

Besides that, all the Ottomans demanded of the greeks were higher taxes.

no comment. There have been plenty of massacres and horros in the ottoam occupation. Saying that all they wanted was taxes is some kind of crap revisionist propaganda.

Quote:

For all the insults the Ottomans are getting, get this:

CHRISTIAN SERFS FLED TO THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ACROSS THE BORDER.

BULLSHIT BYZANTINES FLED TO VENICE AND ITALY TO GET AWAY FROM THE SAVAGES!

Are you of this planet Faeelin?

Quote:

You're calling the only culture in Europe at the time that allowed multiple religions, besieged Vienna, defeated Venice,

Yues. Barbarians CAN defeat civilized people. Happened with Rome too. But the turks were even MORE barbarians

Quote:

encouraged the arts, and built what was once one of the greatest cities in Europe barbaric?

ROTFLMAO encouraged what arts?

And Constantinople was alrady there. They turned it into one big ass islamic bazaar, hardly an achievement

Quote:

"o the Ottomans it was known as the "city of the wise," and Mehmed, their "wise and great Philhellene monarch" was duly impressed by its relics of classical antiquity. He especially admired the Acropolis. He treated the Athenians magnanimously, confirming their civil liberties and exemption from taxes, but delighted them especially... by granting priveliges to the Orthodox clergy".

The same clergy which the turks later massacred.

And you make an invasion which as any had murders liberation. Carry on little fool

Quote:

"Hencefoward Pax Ottomanica reigned there, replacing the feuds of the Franks, while the Greek people were treated with reasonable tolerance-unburdened with excessive taxation, exempted from the tribute of children, permitted freedom to trade and to elect their own local government."

Greeks were always better treated than the rest of the Balkan people by the Ottomans.

that does not mean they were not treated badly and that the islamic ottoman culture was not oppresive uninovative and dark compared to what was happening in Europe, little fool

You can now close your 3rd grade turkish book of history

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:22

MOBIUS just wait for your dirty bomb like a good puppy to dismember what's left of your "empire"

we can take the marbles in our radioactive suits no problem

hell a brit talking about racial equality

you have race riots poor guy.

Faeelin · July 17, 2002, 21:28

Of course Paik. I apologize for quoting a book which is universally praised for its objectivity, clarity, and insight into the Ottoman Empire.

I will now sit in a corner and wait for the lecture about how Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:34

Praied for its objectivity clarity and insight. and universally no less.

What you quoted doesnt say anything of substance now does it?. and what you have failed to "quote" is the whole deal my friend and thats what I did.

I find it simply amazing that you could even DREAM of comparing the darkness and opreesiveness the lethargy and slumbness of islamic ottoman "culture" with the renessance, the age of enlightment and the advancement of sciences that was going on in Europe.

That Europe from which we were forcefully detached for 400 years and thrown into a dark and "dead" culture by european standads.

I think your next masterpiece will be the denial of the holocaust.

i'm sure there must be a great book about that too.

What a joke faeelin. get a grip

Shi Huangdi · July 17, 2002, 21:41

"hmm, I think that this time I have you really cornerned"

"If you cant beat them, join them huh?"

"BTW Shi seems to have left the arena bruised yet one more time."

"Shi is the one who got it up the (ahem) hard though and now it has become a habbit for him."

Amazing! Paitkis claims victory 4 seperate times in response to his post. Who is he trying to convince, himself? He doesn't seem like he is doing a very good job of it- saying you win doesn't make it so.

"There is no such perception in Greek, international or even turkish historians."

Sorry, only large scale foreign intervention would be enough to let Greece to prevail. Failing that- it would be a repeat of what Ataturk did to the Greeks.

"
I said that Turkey roled over and played dead which is exactly what happened."

You said Turkey did nothing. You were wrong. Twist is as you like, I was right you were wrong.

"Second Boshko trolled and was called on it. For all other info see my previous post, little deranged turk"

You still haven't provided any independent sources claiming you are the descendants of the ancient Greeks, Mr. Slav

"You will hear it every time you do this. Untill you stop."

Which is exactly why I won't stop. So I can keep laughing.

"Thanks"

No, thank you! Sig edited!

"And Turkey is not a democratic state by any means."

Which is why their are elections, change in power between political parties, power that is contested. (If the position of PM is just a puppet position, why is their recently such fierce competition over it)? Turkey is indeed a democracy, no matter how much you try to lie about it.

"Kurds will constitute 40% of turkey's population in 2020 so kurdish independence is coming despite the better efforts of Turkey's paramilitary whoch murdered tons of civilians through the years"

Genocide isn't as difficult as you have mentioned. The Turkish military was victrious in Kurdistan- it would be a simple matter to kill them. But they haven't, because this talk of Genocide is just a Greek lie. Heck, if there really is a genocide of the Kurdish people, how can you explain the numbers of Kurds living side by side with the Turks in Western Turkey near Ankara? You'd figure if there was genocide they wouldn't go right near to the capital to live amongst their murderers.

And didn't Greece help in capturing the Kurdish leader or something?

"BTW you really dont know me and your observations are not very penetrating as I see, so you might as well give up "

Sorry, Imran has got you here. You pretend to be a lefty, but you clearly on the far-right. You have made several racist comments against Turks, and it is easy for anyone to see you are an ultra-nationalist. I don't blame you though, the Greek education system well explains your hate.

"

And yet you seemlike you try to fight a bad curse"

If I really did see you as a curse, why would I continually troll you on every thread on Greece on Turkey? Clearly you are not someone who I feel any need to avoid.

The fact is, Paitkis, my trolling has already got you, and you admit it. You have made angry post after post, often taking more then one post to counter me, that has been to my great amusement.

Once again, Thank you my friend.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:48

nice to see you crawling back for some more punishment little Shi.

I'm sure your twisted little soul has already started to get tired by your entrapement.

I know how to push your pathetic little buttons.

As for what you said you simply reapating your self over and over and IU have already discredited you multiple times.

The only thing that you have left to do is coming back for more and more punishment. You have turned into a rather pathetic little maschisist

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:50

As for why you troll me...

you have no choice my little turk.

I humiliate you and provoke you relentlessly every time and you have to preserve some resemblance of descency and self respect.

That's why you always come back

And you always get more punsihment

The same happens now. And will happen again.

The sig looks fabulous BTW,but you should have included your support and denial of any wrongdoings in Turkey. Otherwise, it's just empty, like your arguments

Faeelin · July 17, 2002, 21:52

Paik, you've effectively stood up and called a renowned scholar (who's also written a flattering book on Greece, btw) a liar, compared his teachings to the holocaust deniers, and indirectly referred to me as a neonazi. Rather than explaining how the points are true, you've simply said they aren't, without providing any references to back it up.

I stand corrected, take my hat off to you, and will henceforth never, ever, bother to debate with you again.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 21:57

faeelin, i said that the quotes mean nothing, and they dont. since they dont show the whole deal.

as for the holocaust, yes you got that right.

i prospoe you get rid your hat competely since it obstracts basic brain functions such as understanding written language

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 22:16

So in the end of the day Shi, what remains?

Just you foaming at the mouth on your anti-Greek rants in a desperate attempt to get back at me for having pounded at you so hard all these months.

And the positive development for the noble quest of returning the marbles to Greece by the american Congress.

As for the rest, the scenario is well known.

You barge in, in yet another desperate ands soul racking attempt to redeem yourself for having been, well, fist ****ed in all our previous "confrontations" and getting the same treatment yet again.

I don't know if a more accurate metaphor for your pathetic state of psyche turning mascosistic is to be found in Marquis de Sade or in the myth of the Danaides.

But you sure keep muddling around in dark waters.

I'm glad I contribute with an iron fist in your predicament.
See I have no doubt that your voluntary blindness for tortures and political assassinations is ingraned far deeper than your anguish to "vanquish" me just one time.

That's a delisiously morbid soul twisting predicament you have arranged for yourself, if you ask me

DinoDoc · July 17, 2002, 22:19

Zorba: This is just sad. You've been soundly beaten and are reduced to repeating the same tired arguements that have been defeated earlier in the thread with only the lol smilie to make it look like a real arguement.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 22:26

hardly unless de cathedra statements and the vague mention of random paragraphs which do not create a ocnclusion are considered undisputed facts.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 22:28

As for my lack of sources, well I dont think there is any argument against the fact that european enlightment cannot be compared with ottoman "culture".

except maybe in revisionist america?

this sort of quality statements do not really require any answer.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 22:31

The rest is Shi saying the same rants over and over again. And trying to look like he's enjoying himself counting the number of my posts.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 22:44

So let's recapitulate.

What Shi said.

1. Without the Big Powers Greece would have been crushed.

Did he offer any proof or link for that?

No he just assumed it.

2. Greeks are slavs. (that's his favorite)

Did he offered any proof for that one either?

No he just relied on a troll by Boshko and he never read the answer.

3. Turkey is a democracy.

well not really any question that's his delusional on this one.

4. The marbles will NEVER return to Greece.
again proof full.

Ass for Faeelin, he's just knee deep in revisionist propaganda based on a "universally reknowned book" which says that ottoman culture was better than the age of enlightnemnt in Europe.

So tell me Dinodoc, are those really the "arguments" I have been sadly defeated by?

Don't think so. Just Shi and a few other fishes getting tangled up in the net again

Faeelin · July 17, 2002, 22:58

Ahem Paik.

i never said it was better. I'm saying your constant deridement and trashing of the Ottoman Empire is unjustified.

Ramo · July 17, 2002, 23:06

I love these threads.

Bereta_Eder · July 17, 2002, 23:06

That's good to hear Faeelin, I was starting to give up all hope on you.

As for your second point. No I do not think it is unjustified if you compare it with what Greece MISSED while being under occupation and behind the "iron curtain", if you will, of an islamic uninovating culture while Europe was entering the age of enlightnement.

Also if you think I'm forceful, it's because several treats of the backwater culture of the ottomans are still here in Greece today and are weighting down on the Greek people still.

So my disdain for the ottomans, I think, is justified.

Could you imagine what a Greek (or even Roman) renescance would look like? Or what contributions the Greeks could have given in the european age of englithnemt?

Sorry but I see this era of the 400 years of occupation as a very cruel ironyplayed to us by the Gods

When Europe was entering the age of self conscience, the same Europe we gave birth to, we were away and enslaved.

I guess this is one of my main "problems" with the ottomans.